cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Magikarp on May 01, 2011, 08:54:05 pm
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It's really terrifying, this new policy is trying to make us use some weapons instead of others, but I will explain why this does not work and makes things only worse. No longer do the devs nerf items because they are simply overpowered, no, because they are overused.
But the effects are horrendous, because:
- The balance gets ruined by these unneeded nerfs.
- People get two choices:
-either stick with their favorite weapon
-move on to the next one, creating a new overused one, creating an endless cycle of nerfing
People won't use a variety of alternatives, unless they all got the same stats. Why? That's pretty simple.
First of all, people using a weapon because they like the looks and stuff, will keep using them anyway!
Secondly, they will just move onto the next bes option if stats drove them towards using it. Asa.
Freedom of choice is being undermined here, we must never do this.
I also wonder why some weapons which are overused (like the glaive) are simply made more expensive while others are nerfed in their stats (like the heavy lance)?
This policy has got to stop before it becomes the core for future decisions. Give the community the freedom back to pick their own favorite weapons, why should you care a lot of people like the same weapon?
I end my statement, feel free to comment and state your opinion.
~Magikarp, your favorite fish.
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Magikarp, I agree 100%.
They should at least give us back prepatch req. Now my fav weapons cant be used with my fav build, unlike prepatch -.-
And I have to use Niuweidao instead of Elite Scimitar... which a) is worse b) doesn't fit my style 100%
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i agree 110% :D
dont nerf items just cause people like them, only nerf what is better than everything else.
I also prefer buffing instead of nerfing; if you have 2 unbalanced weaps, buff the worst.
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This is a new policy?
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bullshit
They nerfed weapons which were overused because they were better than others. Now they made more weapons able to compete with them.
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Nah. How was Elite Scimitar overused? I don't care they added 1 dmg point to it.
I care they raised its req, so I can't even use it now...
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Simplest solution, and easier in terms of balance:
Same stats for groups of weapons, only the aesthetics are different.
IE: Short thrusting swords all have same stats
Short slashing swords
Long thrusting swords
Long slashing swords
2h'd thrusting swords
2h'd slashing swords
Short thrusting polearms
Short slashing polearms
etc etc
That way people are paying for the look of their character's/themes instead of the stats. Makes balancing far less of a headache for all involved.
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Yeah? And how do want to make every weapon same length? then some weapons lose style...
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chadz is a monster who wants to take away everything we've ever loved!
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Yeah? And how do want to make every weapon same length? then some weapons lose style...
Not really.
For instance:
Nordic Champion's Sword weapon length: 102
Knightly Arming Sword weapon length: 102
Elite Scimitar weapon length: 100
Long Espada Eslavona weapon length: 103
Arabian Guard Sword weapon length: 100
Long Arming Sword weapon length: 102
Italian Sword weapon length: 98
Arabian Cavalry Sword weapon length: 105
Shashka weapon length: 103
Arabian Arming Sword weapon length: 100
Arabian Straight Sword weapon length: 100
There's all the "long 1h'd swords" For the sake of the example I didn't split them between thrusting and slashing. So here we're talking very minute length differences: 100 vs 98, or 102 vs 100, etc. It's not that hard, nor does it detract from the style of the weapon's appearances to take the 102 length and adjust it to 100, or the 98 up to 100. Now they're all the same length.
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Said the same a long time ago, but I guess it isn't wanted.
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chadz is a monster who wants to take away everything we've ever loved!
Trololol.
What Gorath says is possible, but I think merely making sure that developers don't use this policy anymore is the easier choice.
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What kind of solution is that?
If all weapons are the same why is this a Crpg? The next is make all toons the same.
And this will be like CS.
I used to like my dadao, chadz stole from me, I use one that I like, and i like to choose from a same group due to his speed or damage. Its what a expect on a CRPG mod.
If you dont like nerfs choose other. I was using dadao when its not the best.
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If all weapons are the same why is this a Crpg?
Character build diversity. Character appearance/theme diversity.
It's not "all" weapons. You'd pick the style of weapon you want to use
short 1h:
thrusting or slashing, axe, mace or pick
Medium 1h:
thrusting or slashing, axe, mace or pick
Long 1h:
thrusting or slashing, axe, mace or pick
Short 2h:
thrusting or slashing, axe, mace, etc
etc etc
Then within those groups it's the same stats and you're buying for your appearance/theme. Or you can use the "basic" weapon at the bottom of the scale
Short sword
Falchion
Sword
Cleaver
Long arming sword
Scimitar
Etc. Anyways, it would make balancing things 100x easier and would limit the fotm OP weapon rushes.
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and i always thought we nerfed the items that were overused because they were overpowered :(
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and i always thought we nerfed the items that were overused because they were overpowered :(
Overused items aren't necessarily overpowered. :wink:
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If possible, I prefer either balance by buffing, or balance by specialization. I have seen these implemented with great success in other games.
I believe in this case, hybidization and some strong components of certain items needed to be fixed.
For balance by buffing, people don't like to have things get nerfed unless there is one tactic/item that stands out far above the rest. In this case, there were many items involved. I think increasing the number of counters to specific classes instead of nerfing everything may have been an alternative.
Balance by specialization is pretty much making the item a little different. Nerfing the overpowered aspect, but giving it certain quirks that still allows it to stand out in a less broken way. Speed, power, range, wpf relationships, etc.
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I disagree with the OP entirely. I think he is just crying because his heavy lance is no longer the best at everything and that its advantages now come with certain maluses thereby making alternative weapons a viable choice and reducing the pure unchallenged power of his weapon.
I think it is far better to have a system by which there is no "super item". There should not be for example a lance that is de facto "the best". There should be a lance that is the best at damage, there is a lance that should be the best for speed, a lance that is best for XYZ.
I support the route that the item changes have taken. To illustrate I will give more specific examples with the types of weapons I know most about. 2h swords.
For example let us look at the two handed swords. Now due to large nerfs to damage and other stats of the 2h swords across the board weapons are much more alike. However at the same time this actually serves to make their differences more relevant. Previously I only ever used my longsword when on a horse, nowadays it is a viable weapon as infantry as well. This is because of the reduced effectiveness of for example the german greatsword. This was no doubt one of the most popular 2h weapon before this patch. Now though you sacrifice a lot of speed compared to the longsword for just a few points more damage.
Thus the longsword is now a much more viable weapon. The difference between that and the greatsword is now smaller but now the greatsword is not so much better that you actually have a choice. The increased speed may now be worth the reduced damage (I certainly think it is on occasion).
Of course before we technically had choice, we could, if we wanted, choose to take an inferior weapon but what sort of a choice is that? Now we have a true choice. Speed versus range and damage. I hope that this "policy" will continue.
(However I should add that overall I think 2h weapons too an overly strong hit in effectiveness relative to other weapon types this patch, I do like the balance within the 2h weapon school more than before for the above reasons.)
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They nerfed weapons which were NOT overused and NOT overpowered, such as staffs.
Have you ever help anyone whine about staffs?
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Have you ever help anyone whine about staffs?
Yes, but it was on the duel server, and they were scrubs. :wink:
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and trust that the devs have brains of their own. If something got over-nerfed they will probably change it later. This is a beta after all, some trial and error is to be expected.
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Brrrraaaaaaaiiiiinnnnnssss
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I am sure that 60% of crpg players used masterwork greatswords not because it was OP,they just liked how it looks :rolleyes:
Even if great bardiche will be nerfed and will have in result -15 damage I will still use it.Even if great maul will loose his crushthrough and will be useless I shall use it.Because I like how this weapon looks.Most of people try to use OP weapon,so nerfing overused items is a right policy.After few patches crpg will have almost ideal balance.
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Pfff, what did I type whilst being a dribbling wreck from the nightclub?
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and i always thought we nerfed the items that were overused because they were overpowered :(
Spear + shield combo was rarely used and hardly overpowered before the patch, now its completely useless.
I could be wrong but i think in the process of nerfing 2h lolstabs, all other stabs were buttfucked too.
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Removed since it was Murm's drunken quote XD
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"Overused items" should not exist. The purpose of this mod should be to have a variety of different weaponry out in the field, if there is 1 or 2 "best" weapons out of each class, that are being used by most of people - then its a fail. All weapons should be made viable and your survivability should be more dependent of your teamwork and maybe personal skill rather then the weapon you use.
Also (i'm lazy to write in more then one thread atm): since the patch was announced there is nothing but whining and crying, why was this nerfed, why was that nerfed, everything was fucking nerfed. Protip: watch Oberyn play, he is still using the same weapon as before (and it got heavily nerfed from what i read here), and he still rocks. Its about the player and being able to adapt to changes, and the best part of it is that he could probably rock&roll (as he does) with any weapon you can think of. Half of this community should just stfu and gtfo with their useless comments.
Oh, and feel free to paste this reply of mine into every single whining&crying thread they opened in the last 2 or 3 days.
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-move on to the next one, creating a new overused one, creating an endless cycle of nerfing
That is the perfect cyrcle of reinnovating!
I dont agree with you. People will chose the best items, that is a fact, so when you nerve them game balance will become better.
Nerving overused items will evolute this mod.
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"Overused items" should not exist. The purpose of this mod should be to have a variety of different weaponry out in the field, if there is 1 or 2 "best" weapons out of each class, that are being used by most of people - then its a fail. All weapons should be made viable and your survivability should be more dependent of your teamwork and maybe personal skill rather then the weapon you use.
Also (i'm lazy to write in more then one thread atm): since the patch was announced there is nothing but whining and crying, why was this nerfed, why was that nerfed, everything was fucking nerfed. Protip: watch Oberyn play, he is still using the same weapon as before (and it got heavily nerfed from what i read here), and he still rocks. Its about the player and being able to adapt to changes, and the best part of it is that he could probably rock&roll (as he does) with any weapon you can think of. Half of this community should just stfu and gtfo with their useless comments.
Oh, and feel free to paste this reply of mine into every single whining&crying thread they opened in the last 2 or 3 days.
I still do well too, but that doesn't mean the nerfing was justified. Phyrex does well too, yet his weapon is getting a buff next patch.
And Gnjus, there is no way to prevent it, thats the whole point, there will always be a weapon people overuse. But people seem to be forgetting that looks play a big part in this as well.
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Pfff, what did I type whilst being a dribbling wreck from the nightclub?
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If overused items where actually nerfed, you'd be seeing a huge nerfing of steel picks, those things are still constantly used and are some of the faster 1h's around, whipping around something like that when it's in all reality, just a really pointy axe is, in my eyes, the one weapon that needed nerfing with the last patch and didn't get any sort of nerfing at all. (If it did, please tell me, because I don't see it.)
That aside, there are only one or two things that are constant, the bitching at archers for being OP by 2hers, and people bandwagoning onto new builds and using items because they are OP, it's not a bad thing, it's just how the game works, if a ton of people are using a weapon set, build and are constantly exploiting an issue with the engine (Wonky hitboxes for some curved swords, for example.) because somebody found out the weapon's inherent strengths before anybody else, other people are going to grab onto it and enjoy it just as much, and the rest who aren't moving to that build and weapon are just going to have to adapt.
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Agree with Plazek. +1
Generally weapon balance should be about about making weapons more or less equal in the fuzzy term "Battle Power". Perhaps except some extremely low tier weapons like wooden swords or extremely cheap weapons.
From mid to high tier, weapons should be equal, not equal in stats, but in "Battle Power", so that it us up to the wielder to take the difficult choice of what wep to use and heirloom. That way we would see much more variety and specialized chars. I.ex German Greatsword would no longer be obvious.
The same could be done i.ex for Bows, the dillemma would be speed vs damage vs req vs accuracy, but objectively they would be "equally" powerful in a general sense.
I've explained the concept further in this old post: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,153.msg1189.html#msg1189 (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,153.msg1189.html#msg1189)
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- People get two choices:
-either stick with their favorite weapon
-move on to the next one, creating a new overused one, creating an endless cycle of nerfing
You forgot the third option.
- log into the forums and whine.
He joked! ... sort of.
I trust this is also about your Flamberge? That weapon I have only the other day seen one shot 4 armoured people in a row. Needs more damage you say?
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You forgot the third option.
- log into the forums and whine.
He joked! ... sort of.
I trust this is also about your Flamberge? That weapon I have only the other day seen one shot 4 armoured people in a row. Needs more damage you say?
One shot 4 armoured people in a row? That's a very clearly stated argument.
And no, Flamberge was actually an underused weapon, which doesn't apply to this thread's topic.
If you mean the form of whining in which you back it up with hard evidence, than yes, the third option is one I forgot.
Devs confirmed this policy themselves, I can quote them if you wish me to.
Anyways, I think it's clear that people are against this policy. Let's just hope the devs got the message.
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nerfing overused items is equal to an indirect boost to nonused items, so looking for a balanced diversification of items seems like if they follow this way ahead they will have, eventually, alots of items wittch using frequency is homogeneally diversificated. As this seems to be what is intended to be for a balanced shop of items, we all should to be happy about because yes.
The developers are using the statistics to make a mod rich in details. But they dont care about your feelings because they are very conscious about the fact that they are working on a betamod, and some players think they are in a finished game where they can work for an estatic happiness. Wrong.
I say.
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Well spoken.
It does say "Welcome to c-RPG BETA"
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nerfing overused items is equal to an indirect boost to nonused items, so looking for a balanced diversification of items seems like if they follow this way ahead they will have, eventually, alots of items wittch using frequency is homogeneally diversificated. As this seems to be what is intended to be for a balanced shop of items, we all should to be happy about because yes.
The developers are using the statistics to make a mod rich in details. But they dont care about your feelings because they are very conscious about the fact that they are working on a betamod, and some players think they are in a finished game where they can work for an estatic happiness. Wrong.
I say.
You actually believe that people will start using different weapons if you nerf the overused one? Come on, I've already pointed out that that doesn't work.
Yes, this is a beta. But should a beta necessarily be a bad product than? I could care less about what the devs think of our feelings. I'm rather pointing out something that should be avoided at all times.
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Re: [WHINE] Long Maul is useless now
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:22:41 »QuoteI Magikarp : don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all crushtrough weapons got a nerf, deal with it.
sooo my thoughts on the flamburg is, I don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all 2 handed swords got a nerf, deal with it.
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You actually believe that people will start using different weapons if you nerf the overused one? Come on, I've already pointed out that that doesn't work.
Yes, this is a beta. But should a beta necessarily be a bad product than? I could care less about what the devs think of our feelings. I'm rather pointing out something that should be avoided at all times.
You are wrong and I am right. learn to live with that. 8-)
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Re: [WHINE] Long Maul is useless now
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:22:41 »QuoteI Magikarp : don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all crushtrough weapons got a nerf, deal with it.
sooo my thoughts on the flamburg is, I don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all 2 handed swords got a nerf, deal with it.
Maybe you did not understand, which I can understand from new players. What I meant was that the weapon shouldnt deal more damage than the shorter Great Maul, Mallet etc. Aka weapons in the same category. And why bring this discussion here? Flamberge was not an overused item.
@Belatu: is that all you have to say? This is too easy.
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@Belatu: is that all you have to say? This is too easy.
Universal laws are simple and easy, it´s part of the beautyness of the THING.
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Magikarp, I agree 100%.
They should at least give us back prepatch req. Now my fav weapons cant be used with my fav agistacking build, unlike prepatch -.-
And I have to use Niuweidao instead of Elite Scimitar... which a) is worse b) doesn't fit my style 100%
Fixed. Sorry but this was needed for too long and it's just sad you did your build wrong because of the prepatch reqs.
On the topic, although nerfing the overpowered weapons is what we want, it is not possible to measure the OPness of something. It depends on so many internal (speed, damage, reach, cost, animations...) and external (maps, opponents, classes balance, equipment trends, tactical situation...) factors it is completly impossible to tell what is and what isn't OP.
Trying to balance equipment on the base of their effective "power" is just like trying to tax people based on their "kindness". Maybe it would be better, but if you can't measure what you need to say whether something is right or not, then it's not doable.
Average use, however, is extremely easy to get (devs have graphs about that, those were allready quoted many times). It is not a perfect appraisal (google traduction, sorry) of the imbalance, but not that bad neither. It's based on the assumption that a good part of the cRPG population will be attracted by weapons they do better with, and use them more often.
Just imagine there was a completly OP weapon capable of oneshotting any enemy at range without aiming. Allmost everyone will end up using it (before quitting, obviously), and it is a good clue about something fishy going on with that weapon. On the other extreme, a completly useless weapon isn't used much. Just take the sickle, I rarely even see peasants using that, and in fact it's not OP at all. People roleplaying a sickle warrior are... hum... I think I'm the only crazy guy that created an alt to do that.
Now, there is missing information if we only consider the part of players using a piece of equipment. For example, an extremely imbalanced equipment (i.e. Plated Charger, although it doesn't seem like it is so overpowered in combat, it is when used by a good cavalry) that costs a shitload of gold will not be used much, but still is OP if we only consider someone using it in a particular battle. It's good not so many things lie in this category.
Addendum :
Furthermore, because others pointed it out, nerfing by overuse is the way to reintroduce diversity. It was lost when leveling became so fast anyone could make an alt of the latest OP thing or make a clone of you in two days. Nerfing overused items is slow but it can't really go backward. It will force people to decide what they like and will lighten their personal playstyles, now hidden behind the obvious weapon choice.
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Why should you nerf someone's favourite item, when it may not even be overpowered, just because a lot of others use it too, for whatever reason they may have?
My god, this new russian weapon looks awesome! A lot of people start using it, needs a nerf? No, clearly not.
This does not reintroduce diversity, it reintroduces an endless cycle of nerfing because one weapon will always be used more than others. This is unavoidable.
Stop associating overpowered weapons with 'overused' weapons.
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So you are saying overpowered weapons are not overused?
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He is saying to stop nerfing overused weapons because seems like overpowered weapons are overused but all overused weapons are not overpowered. So what he seems to say is to stop nerfing overused items for the only fact that they are overused. But the thing that we dont know is what proportion of overused items are overpowered because if the proportion of overuserness is high enough overpowerness and overuserness will be treat as equal by fasaderp and co :lol:
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Actually, I can't think of many cases where an overused item wasn't also overpowered. I don't think this topic describes a real problem.
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Actually, I can't think of many cases where an overused item wasn't also overpowered. I don't think this topic describes a real problem.
^
This. People discover what's OP and flock to it until it's nerfed, then they move on to the next one. On rare occasions people will see someone do well with a lulzy weapon and think it's got some hidden quality, use it then discover that no, the guy using the crap weapon was just THAT good.