cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Chagan_Arslan on May 01, 2011, 04:46:31 pm
-
At start i would like to say that im lancer, but ill try to be neutral and not biased about things i would like to discuss, and the thing i would like to talk about are the things im familiar with, lancer equipement and weapons we face and are killed by.
First of all im wondering why did heavy lance took so heavy nerf when it comes to speed ? now its base speed is 65, same as great lance which is heavier and with range of 230, and its even slower than long pike that is also heavier and much longer (280 range) with 68 speed ... by logic something that is heavier and longer should be slower to use ? why than heavy lance lets say used on foot is so much slower than pike and long pike both heavier and longer weapons?
Im guessing its made so that heavy lance would be strictly horseback weapon, but here comes the question, why this logic doesnt apply to pike (the anti-cav weapon) ? Why speed of pike isnt nerfed just as hard, as a matter of fact pike didnt recieve any nerf outside of req and price increase.. If devs would truly like to make it an anti-cav weapon they would decrease its speed, just so it can stop/dehorse/kill rider but not be useful as a melee weapon(as its still one of the best supporting weapons there is)
Maybe the nerf was to create more options for lancers? But if i say that strongbow is the most common choice for horse archers i wouldnt be lying, but does it automaticly means that it needs a nerf so that horse archers realize that other bows exists? And also what other options outside of pike does an anticav character has? Yes heavy lance was the mostly used weapon by lancers, but so are the other weapons by other classes! Why create diversity only for one specific class ?
Or maybe heavy lance proved to be too deadly as a melee weapon ? Widely used by cavalry players that when dehorsed almost always die, had at least a shadow of a chance to survive with it, what is now impossible even if they avoid getting killed while downed after being dehorsed.
I heard somewhere that is was reduced to lower the "Killing sprees" that was possible. Yes that make sense or does it ? Every class can do it in given the suitable situation, be it 2h/polearm used jumping into crowd slashing everything around while enemy is afraid of hitting his own teammates. Thrower throwing one projectile after another into the crowd of people. Archer/xbower shooting people climbing ladder/going uphill. Every class can do it, but cav going on a killing spree (mostly on unaware people, as aware players are so much harder to kill) is a no-no.
Or might it be unpredictable attack direction ? It got slowered so that people can block it better. Well ok im trolling here, as we all know that only block you will use against lancer is the lower block... or do we?
Wouldnt it be better to make heavy lance more expensive (around 10k?, more?) to represent its top tier status, while giving back its normal speed (nevermind the dmg nerf as almost all weapons got that) ?
So please developers be consistent with all your decisions.
If you want to screw up one weapon please do this also to its counterparts,
if you want to create weapon strictly to be used on horse, make its counterpart used strictly against horses.
If you want to make new rule, make it apply to all weapons.
Whatever you do be consistent!
Also keep in mind that currently Cavalry is only happy with what i think is less than 50% of server maps, not any other class is as affected by maps than the cavlary.
And as a fun fact you can notice that you wont find whining cavalry player about yet another infantry map that they have to dismount on, but change it to some open field map and the rage doesnt have an end.
-
i agree on almost everything here... taht speed nerf was just too big (i also disagree with the dmg nerf now that the other lances didnt get one and i also disagree with the heirloom nerf, but nevermind)
-
I'm more annoyed about the damage it does now and the weak heirlooms.
Idk why the hell they nerfed the item which should be the best lance available.
Glaive didn't get nerfed, it only got more expensive, yet heavy lance got hit tremendously.
The logic of the developers has gone wild it seems. They ruined the balance that was created, the only thing wrong with the game were the throwers, lolstabbers, huscarl users and the crushtrough maces. Instead of slightly tweaking the game to perfection, they ruin the balance by buffing/nerfing classes unnecessarily.
-
could you please reset my heirlooms? I want to choose them again, I have chosen the heavy lance again, now got masterwork (only +1 speed) and it has a speed of 66. Normal alnce has 80 and light lance 90. so please reset my heirlooms, I dont want to use that lance anymore.
-
btw, i was "arguing" about the heavy lance about 1 hour ow on IRC, they (for example Okin, Fasader, Espu...) said some arguments like:
- "it's heavy"
---> nerf the other heavy weapons with -10 speed (swords, axes and stuff)
- "it does more damage"
---> wrong, light lance has 28 damage, heavy lance does 27 damage, heavy swords and axes do more damage then the normal weapons
- "it was the only weaponlancer chose"
Maybe the nerf was to create more options for lancers? But if i say that strongbow is the most common choice for horse archers i wouldnt be lying, but does it automaticly means that it needs a nerf so that horse archers realize that other bows exists? And also what other options outside of pike does an anticav character has? Yes heavy lance was the mostly used weapon by lancers, but so are the other weapons by other classes! Why create diversity only for one specific class ?
Suggestions:
increase speed again or increse reach further
-
btw, i was "arguing" about the heavy lance about 1 hour ow on IRC, they (for example Okin, Fasader, Espu...) said some arguments like:
[..]
Nice job leaving out the stuff that makes your view look bad, Toffi.
What the real point was:
Heavy lance: long and slow
Light lance: short and fast
Normal lance: in between light and heavy
This makes the other lances a real option, pre-patch pretty much all lancers used heavy lance.
-
damage reach speed
light 28 175 90
normal 27 180 80
heavy 27 190 65
so ?
it doesnt make the heavy lance an option anymore...
and pre-patch some people, as I said on IRC, used the light lance, too.
and this again:
Maybe the nerf was to create more options for lancers? But if i say that strongbow is the most common choice for horse archers i wouldnt be lying, but does it automaticly means that it needs a nerf so that horse archers realize that other bows exists? And also what other options outside of pike does an anticav character has? Yes heavy lance was the mostly used weapon by lancers, but so are the other weapons by other classes! Why create diversity only for one specific class ?
compare swords + heavy swords, for example bastard sword, and axes + heavy axes, they are all fine and didnt get -10 speed cause they are "long and heavy" and the heavy versions also have more damage!! Heavy lance only has DECREASED damage in comparison to the light version! why?
-
damage reach speed
light 28 175 90
normal 27 180 80
heavy 27 190 65
damage reach speed
light 28 175 90
normal 27 180 80
heavy 27 190 65
-
Thank you cmpx for stating your opinion. :rolleyes:
-
buff speed to 70 - seems more fair imo
light - regular = +1 dmg, +5 reach, -10 speed
regular - heavy = +0 dmg, +10 reach, -10 speed
this seems more fair than the current:
+1 dmg, +5 reach, -10 speed
+0 dmg, +10 reach, -15 reach
-
Am I the only here who finds speed nerf as a overall buff of heavy lance?
On horse it is much easier to hit anything with slow weapon while with fast weapon you need to be expert in timing. Currently hit of heavy lance lasts 3-3.5 seconds while light lance lasts 1-1.5 sec.
I would understand your concern if you use heavy lance on foot but for horseman heavy lance became much better then it was due to longer hit time and less problems with timing. You just need a bit of time to get used to new speed.
I use normal lance just not to lose my Native shape, otherwise I would use heavy lance which is currently superb for lancer. (may be not in any situation but for open space maps for sure.)
-
Am I the only here who finds speed nerf as a overall buff of heavy lance?
On horse it is much easier to hit anything with slow weapon while with fast weapon you need to be expert in timing. Currently hit of heavy lance lasts 3-3.5 seconds while light lance lasts 1-1.5 sec.
I would understand your concern if you use heavy lance on foot but for horseman heavy lance became much better then it was due to longer hit time and less problems with timing. You just need a bit of time to get used to new speed.
I use normal lance just not to lose my Native shape, otherwise I would use heavy lance which is currently superb for lancer. (may be not in any situation but for open space maps for sure.)
In some ways, yes. You won't be able to use this thing anymore for quick turns and continuous attacks.
-
does weight of a weapon matter much from horseback? Because the weights of the lances arent very different, perhaps change weights up a bit. I would think a HEAVY lance would be 5+ lb, not 1.3
-
If you want clear pattern, what about lowering damage to 26 ? And about decreasing speed to 60 ? This is pattern. Be glad they didn't nerfed it harder, even if it deserve harder nerf.
-
UI'm using the pike now, it's way faster than the heavy lance and has more reach.
-
UI'm using the pike now, it's way faster than the heavy lance and has more reach.
Can be used from horseback ? Can be used with shield ?
-
UI'm using the pike now, it's way faster than the heavy lance and has more reach.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4973.0.html
"You are not allowed to use a pike on a horse. Please stop doing it."
-
oh damm, but it is possible, so why dont change?
-
LOL, you thought using a pike was allowed? Haha.
My thoughts are either: bump the speed up a bit or tweak the heirlooming.
-
well I kind of knew it's not allowed but didn't read an admin-thread about it so far.
-
A nerf? You realize of course that the lower speed a weapon has, the more movement bonus damage it gets. This was a significant buff to heavy lance damage in almost every circumstance.
-
A nerf? You realize of course that the lower speed a weapon has, the more movement bonus damage it gets. This was a significant buff to heavy lance damage in almost every circumstance.
Not when trying to stab multiple opponents in a row, not in a quick pace cav battle and most of all not when dismounted.
-
A nerf? You realize of course that the lower speed a weapon has, the more movement bonus damage it gets. This was a significant buff to heavy lance damage in almost every circumstance.
Yeah, they should nerf it's damage too (to match other lances, -1 or even -2 damage would be correct number).
-
Tommy is right, some guys here oviously dont know how to use a lance from horseback
-
heaven forbid you have to buy and use a different lance depending on the situation, fuck weapon diversity I want a be-all-end-all
-
Tommy is right, some guys here oviously dont know how to use a lance from horseback
It sounds like you're the one having the most trouble lancing from horseback.
-
heaven forbid you have to buy and use a different lance depending on the situation, fuck weapon diversity I want a be-all-end-all
Lances are 2-spots and will drop if you try to sheath it.
I don't care much though. I'm more annoyed that polearms went 2spots while crossbows didn't. I thought the whole idea was to nerf hybrids.
-
Heavy Lance nerf was bs.
Do not cry like "But 190 reach is too much !"
Only thing you have to do to avoid it is holding down block.
But yeah it is too hard let's just nerf the damn thing...
-
A nerf? You realize of course that the lower speed a weapon has, the more movement bonus damage it gets. This was a significant buff to heavy lance damage in almost every circumstance.
You would need to show some hard evidence of this idea to convince me. AFAIK movement speed is calculated by the total difference in speed the second the attack tip touches an opponent.
-
I would find it hard to believe this qualifies as a buff. My heavy lance has been failing to kill a lot more targets than it used to in the same situation before the patch.
But whether it's properly balanced or what, I don't know. I know I'll still use it and will be fine. My horse is the weakpoint if anything, not my lance.
My only concerns in the game are the lack of throwers, the fact that archer heavy teams seem to dominate (though much of that may be from shields being rather rare), and horse archers being very hard to hit even when you've got a good run on them (though lag effects are probably the biggest culprit here).
-
Okay just to show you people that developers don't know what they really want to do... I was raging in may about the heavy lance beeing too slow, admins answered that:
Nice job leaving out the stuff that makes your view look bad, Toffi.
What the real point was:
Heavy lance: long and slow
Light lance: short and fast
Normal lance: in between light and heavy
This makes the other lances a real option, pre-patch pretty much all lancers used heavy lance.
damage reach speed
light 28 175 90
normal 27 180 80
heavy 27 190 65
So reason enough not to change it...
but now.. they changed it back to 72 speed... great cause now I have to trade in my MW lance for a MW heavy lance again, cause MW lance got useless again.
Its stupid to heirloom anything in the game, no matter what you choose its always the wrong decision, horses are too expensive, lances get changed with every patch and hit radius is reduced too, its just bullshit. crpg gets worse and worse with every new patch. Only strategus is worth playing.
-
You sound like someone who's about to leave the game, so be off and take your crap with you. It's not like anyone cares about your "I told you so" bs.
PS: Ressurecting old threads is not nice.
-
i believe that this patch made only the heavy lance usable, like you cant thrust on the sides you need max range to outreach!
-
Yea, basically everyone has reverted back to using only the heavy lance. There is also a surge back to buying MW Heavy lances in the market.
I think the prices on the other 2 lances need to be lowered for them to be a real choice, or the speed on heavy lowered back.
-
making the speed lowered is a nerf and a buff. maybe you cant use as many times your lance but it incrases the speed bonus, thus dealing more damage.
-
When it comes to lances length is only thing that matters. If it were otherwise I would have no problem trading my Light Lance...
It can have 0 speed people would still use Heavy instead of regular or light Lance.
Buff other lances!
-
You sound like someone who's about to leave the game, so be off and take your crap with you. It's not like anyone cares about your "I told you so" bs.
PS: Ressurecting old threads is not nice.
This is about heavy lances not about loeaving the game or soemthing, read the thread first, and my post.
Seems like 5 people do care. Being in the Risen clan is even worse than leaving... I heard you are now only a bunch of kids.
To all the others: Thanks for stating your opinion, I agree with everyone so far, my problem is that they change it and change it again.
-
They tend to do that because they are bunch of trolls, not serious grown up people.
-
Putting back old heavy (great) lance graphic would make things pretty sweet imo