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Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Erasmas on March 05, 2013, 09:50:24 pm

Title: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on March 05, 2013, 09:50:24 pm
The current strategus battle (or rather siege) system has a flaw that should be fixed.

As you all know the attacker needs to have the army equal or higher than 1/3 of the defenders army.  You also all know that with the current time limit of the battle it makes no sense to run the battles with the armies larger than 1600 troops.

Let me quote our Strategus mastermind on that topic:

I ) troop count
(click to show/hide)


Usually it is not a big deal, cause the battles are kept within this limits, but now we can see sieges of castles and towns with large garrisons.  It is impossible to take them in one go, unless you are very, very lucky and take the flags. Simple mathematics shows that if the castle or town has the army of 4800 or higher, the attacker will have to pay with tickets solely for the pleasure of besieging the location.

If you look at the map, you will see a lot of castles and towns with the armies larger than 4800. Let me give you a neutral example: Reindi Castle has the army of 6363. You will need 2121 tickets just to attack it.  Considering that the army of 1600 is a reasonable number for the time of the battle, ca. 500 tickets (even with fully filled rosters) will be lost by the attacker due to lapse of time.

It does not make any sense. It is a waste of resources and the (unfair) advantage for the large army owners kept in castles/towns. It “by definition” makes the siege costs higher for the attacker than for the defender, and I do not see any justification for that. (In fact it already is more expensive for the attacker - the upkeep of the army in field is higher than in garrison). The castles and towns are not supposed to be invincible.

Proposed solutions:

1.   Increase the time limit for the sieges with large numbers of defending troops. If both parties want (and are able) to have such a big and long battles – let them have it. 

or

2.   Modify the “1/3” rule for the battles with the defenders armies larger than 4800, so that it is possible to attack such army with only 1600 troops. If the attacker wish to have several battles with lower numbers, and lose some of them (losing troops and gear, and giving the defender the advantage of the loot) – why not? But at least the attacker will not lose the troops without actually using the them at the battle.

PS.

And before you start whining, yes, a very particular example lead me to make this post:

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=2744

At least 600-800 tickets will inevitably go down the drain in that battle. Just imagine the battlefield where after few hours of fights generals shout "stop" and the soldiers of the attacking army are neatly lined up and shot in the heads, despite the will of both defenders and attackers to fight. This is ridiculous.

Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: serr on March 05, 2013, 10:11:54 pm
Agree.
There is also third possible solution - set limits for garrisons in fiefs. Like 5k for cities, 3k for castles and 1500 for villages
This would forbid factions to keep many troops in fiefs and force them to make battles.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Tyr_ on March 05, 2013, 10:15:02 pm
isnt it limited at 1000? so you can attack every fief with a 1k army, no matter how big the garrison is
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Always on March 05, 2013, 10:17:49 pm
Agreed!
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on March 05, 2013, 10:19:10 pm
Well, we couldn't attack Yalen with less than 2400 troops. So maybe that refers to castles/towns only. The issue is still standing though.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Osiris on March 05, 2013, 10:19:45 pm
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=2744


thats gonna be some losses :o
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Rebelyell on March 05, 2013, 10:28:56 pm
Well, we couldn't attack Yalen with less than 2400 troops. So maybe that refers to castles/towns only. The issue is still standing though.
time for grind
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 06, 2013, 02:15:39 am
EXCEPT, when attacking a fief, you don't  need 1/3 of the defenders. I can point a 6k defenders(2k garrison) versus 1.5k attacking army. that's WAY less than 1/3 but was still doable.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Bjarky on March 06, 2013, 06:38:23 am
EXCEPT, when attacking a fief, you don't  need 1/3 of the defenders. I can point a 6k defenders(2k garrison) versus 1.5k attacking army. that's WAY less than 1/3 but was still doable.
only the army counts, pop doesnt matter in order to allow raids.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Malaclypse on March 06, 2013, 07:23:27 am
Agree.
There is also third possible solution - set limits for garrisons in fiefs. Like 5k for cities, 3k for castles and 1500 for villages
This would forbid factions to keep many troops in fiefs and force them to make battles.

If you do this it seems like it'd only be fair to set a hard cap on the amount of troops a field army can hold as well.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Vovka on March 06, 2013, 09:18:58 am
just slightly modify the rule "u need equal or higher than 1/3 of the defenders army but not more than 1600"
So if owners want safe gold from upkeep huge armies in 1 fiefs he risky to loose all army if attackers take flags
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: KingBread on March 06, 2013, 09:48:16 am
just slightly modify the rule "u need equal or higher than 1/3 of the defenders army but not more than 1600"
So if owners want safe gold from upkeep huge armies in 1 fiefs he risky to loose all army if attackers take flags
Mayby even less than 1600 would still be fine
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Arathian on March 06, 2013, 10:06:38 am
I agree.

And yes, this is self-advertisement, but THIS would be another freeking solution.

Please, take a look and tell me your opinions on that suggestion.

http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/surrender-retreat-and-battles-a-strategus-suggestion/msg629851/#msg629851

Unless the defenders physically sally out and cap the flags, the attackers could simply retreat at the end of the timer, the army preserved and ready to fight again, solving the problem + adding depth to the engagements.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on March 06, 2013, 11:08:27 pm
At least 600-800 tickets will inevitably go down the drain in that battle.
[/i]

That was 526 tickets this time... Let's see the next one:

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=2764 (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=2764)

Dear devs, any chance to see that mechanism fixed in a predictable future?

Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Segd on March 06, 2013, 11:40:41 pm
Try this nut:
Narra
Population: 3000
Owner: Franke_HRE
Army: 30633
Gold: 3030316
Price: 15
S&D: 64
Attack Narra!
Enter Narra
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on March 07, 2013, 11:24:35 pm
318 tickets wasted for nothing at Yalen in the last battle ...

The next one is finally fairly normal (5392 troops of army in Yalen):

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=2777 (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=2777)

I expect all 1745 to die in regular way  :(  Let's see how it goes. 
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 07, 2013, 11:48:55 pm
I agree with the OP and the easiest solution (and best) would be just to allow someone with 1500 or more troops to be able to attack any fief.  I don't like the idea of making battles last more than 2 hours.  And attacking with anything more than 1500 is a very good chance you'll be losing troops to the time limit at the end.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: kinngrimm on March 09, 2013, 06:24:19 pm
Vovka your suggestion seems the easiest way to do it, whereby i would start with 1400 tickets as due to some locations being very tough on the timer to get anything done.

The way i would like to see it at some point, but would need more coding so it would be similar the way it had been in the medieval times.


Now make contracts available to poisen the defenders wells or attackers food stock, give me some more RPG somehow to all these battles as when they drag out it would become rather dull ... you know like atm at times too when you have the 10th siege of such a god forsaken place.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Keshian on March 09, 2013, 06:36:09 pm
Easiest solution requires a combination improvement - gear can't be taken out of a fief for 1 hour following a battle and you just lose half your gear used (or a little more if necessary) but gear no longer degrades.

If gear no longer degrades you wont have 6 different types of morningstars screwing up your inventory and causing the item bug with too many items in a battle.  Degradation of items is the most common cause of this problem and it adds so much unnecessary micro-managment (alternative is to allow repairs up to the same level of your highest quality item).

If gear and gold can't just be transferred out immediately after a battle it becomes far more realistic (real sieges you couldn't just transfer all your equipment and gold to one guy and have him leave the besieged castle while waiting 24 hours for the assault by that besieging force and sell all the equipment), it becomes far more viable for attackers to regain their losses through multiple assaults instead of just feeding defenders gear whether they eventually win or lose after multiple waves of attacks.

Right now the only way to profit from assaulting fiefs is to get lucky and teleport the fief owner far away from his fief and having multiple armies with 1 troop ready to intercept as he races back to his fief.  Otherwise the attackers always lose and the defenders always win even if the attackers take the fief, because they got all the expensive gear out from the first 3-20 assaults.  Makes being aggressive far less likely and turtling very common among many many factions.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Segd on March 09, 2013, 07:22:19 pm
Battle Multiplier was the best solution. You could take 50k army & strike 30k Narra. Fight for about 1.5h-2h & get 10kk XP. No need to attack one fief 9000 times.
110k(Pub Crawl) vs 70k(UIF) battle for some uif city was one of the brightest battles this game ever had. Even since we had equip for only 10-20k :(
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 10, 2013, 03:20:14 pm
Bump.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Kamirane on March 11, 2013, 04:01:47 am
isnt it just ridiculous that there can be 10 times more army as population? Where do they sleep? What do they eat and drink? What about the care of health? No realism in my opinion.

A caplimit to population x2 for all fiefs would be more realistic.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Zaren on March 11, 2013, 04:09:24 am
isnt it just ridiculous that there can be 10 times more army as population? Where do they sleep? What do they eat and drink? What about the care of health? No realism in my opinion.

A caplimit to population x2 for all fiefs would be more realistic.
that could work its acctually a good idea. That way you could limit the number of troops much easier and thus make the number of troops counting to the 1/3 rule much less......
 although crpg isnt really the game to go for realism lol
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Smoothrich on March 11, 2013, 04:17:54 am
Battle Multiplier was the best solution. You could take 50k army & strike 30k Narra. Fight for about 1.5h-2h & get 10kk XP. No need to attack one fief 9000 times.
110k(Pub Crawl) vs 70k(UIF) battle for some uif city was one of the brightest battles this game ever had. Even since we had equip for only 10-20k :(

Agreed.  It was elegant and grinded resources super fast in battles with massive amounts of XP.  I think most players get sick of 2 hour + long battles or attacking/defending the same place over and over anyways.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 11, 2013, 05:05:30 pm
I did like the multiplier system (where you would have every death 10 troops die or scaled for the amount of troops you attacked with).  I think that put a larger emphasis on troop numbers versus actual gear for the troops though.  Wouldn't a very heavily armed army of 10,000 troops get demolished if they were attacked by a medium armed army of 100,000 troops due to the way the scaling/ratio worked?  Also, how the hell would you know exactly how many troops to equip?  Wouldn't you have a lot of wasted gear?
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Bjarky on March 11, 2013, 05:37:48 pm
I did like the multiplier system (where you would have every death 10 troops die or scaled for the amount of troops you attacked with).  I think that put a larger emphasis on troop numbers versus actual gear for the troops though.  Wouldn't a very heavily armed army of 10,000 troops get demolished if they were attacked by a medium armed army of 100,000 troops due to the way the scaling/ratio worked?  Also, how the hell would you know exactly how many troops to equip?  Wouldn't you have a lot of wasted gear?
yeah thats why we dont have that system anymore, especially siege gear didn't work to well with that.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Lennu on March 11, 2013, 11:53:44 pm
Maybe increase the upkeep of troops in fiefs once the troop amount gets over, 1000 for Villages, 2000 for Castles and 4000 for Towns? After that limit is reached the upkeep per troop would increase as the amount of troops get higher, maybe by 1% per every 20 tickets that exceed the limit.
The troop softcap ofc can be something else, as the upkeep increase rate. You get the idea.



Another thing that came to my mind.
Try this nut:
Narra
Population: 3000
Owner: Franke_HRE
Army: 30633
Gold: 3030316
Price: 15
S&D: 64
Attack Narra!
Enter Narra
 :rolleyes:
Our Narra is a good example, it has buttloads of troops inside. But what you can't see is that there are 8 players inside as well, each with an army of 1500 troops. Should Narra ever become under siege, we could always reinforce that Town with the armies our players have already in the fief. This gives us the element of surprise, those 30k tickets would need 60k tickets from the attacker.... but then we reinforce it with 12k more troops at TA-DAH, attacker is really fucked.
I made up the numbers
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: kinngrimm on March 12, 2013, 12:12:57 am
...
Another thing that came to my mind. Our Narra is a good example, it has buttloads of troops inside. But what you can't see is that there are 8 players inside as well, each with an army of 1500 troops. Should Narra ever become under siege, we could always reinforce that Town with the armies our players have already in the fief. This gives us the element of surprise, those 30k tickets would need 60k tickets from the attacker.... but then we reinforce it with 12k more troops at TA-DAH, attacker is really fucked.
I made up the numbers
not anymore
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on April 19, 2013, 03:02:35 pm
Siege issue came up in various threads again, so I decided to make made a short calculation to show why the 1/3 rule is ridiculous and how it makes makes castles/towns unreasonably hard, or impossible to conquer in this stage of Strat.

Narra is a perfect example for this purpose, cause it holds large garrison:

Narra
Population:           3000
Army:                  31029
Total garrison:    34029

Now, lets make some assumptions for this calculation:
These are very optimistic assumptions. The population actually does not die in the end, usually less than 1800 can be killed (1500 – 1700) in one go; defender’s losses are in fact lower than attacker’s (no catapults, dammit!!!), the reinforcements will surely be made either by defenders or its allies. All these make the situation even worse for attackers.

So lets see how seriously this system is fucked up:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


So:
19 sieges? 100.000 troops to take 34.000 garrison? WTF???? THIS IS SICK!

The most obvious strategy is to drop large number of troops to the Castle or Town, and if you reach certain critical number, you can be sure that you will never be wiped from the map.

CHANGE THE 1/3 RULE, DAMMIT!!!
(Right after fixing the catapults)
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: bredeus on April 19, 2013, 03:31:10 pm
To be honest its really historical rule. Never start a siege with 1 to 3 advantage.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: BASNAK on April 19, 2013, 03:32:30 pm
To be honest its really historical rule. Never start a siege with 1 to 3 advantage.

Yes but there was no higher force stopping you from doing it? As long as it's a reasonable attacking force it should be allowed. No matter garrison size.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on April 19, 2013, 03:38:23 pm
To be honest its really historical rule. Never start a siege with 1 to 3 advantage.

Maybe so. But in the past you had the battles without time limit, or with multiplicator. I think it should be changed in current circumstances, unless you want to see more and more stalled strat.

Find me the clan ready to spend 100k (or - more likely - 120k) troops to take over one location with 30k. Think of the costs of upkeep and logistics. Besides, how this relates to the general idea of making strat more open for casual players?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Kamirane on April 19, 2013, 04:56:48 pm
To be honest its really historical rule. Never start a siege with 1 to 3 advantage.

yeah, but there was no timelimit!

what about real sieges. just wait half a year or something like that. the hunger will burn them or they need to fallout. If this happens there is no 1/3 cap needed anyway :p
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Keshian on April 19, 2013, 05:19:15 pm
Siege issue came up in various threads again, so I decided to make made a short calculation to show why the 1/3 rule is ridiculous and how it makes makes castles/towns unreasonably hard, or impossible to conquer in this stage of Strat.

Narra is a perfect example for this purpose, cause it holds large garrison:

Narra
Population:           3000
Army:                  31029
Total garrison:    34029

Now, lets make some assumptions for this calculation:
  • the population dies last
  • 1800 troops can be killed in one battle, the rest is lost due to siege time limit (see OP for explanation)
  • defender and attacker losses on actual battlefield are equal (1800)
  • afaik the 1/3 rule is calculated  basing on the number of the army in town
  • no reinforcements of the town are made during the entire process
  • the flags are not dropped in any siege
These are very optimistic assumptions. The population actually does not die in the end, usually less than 1800 can be killed (1500 – 1700) in one go; defender’s losses are in fact lower than attacker’s (no catapults, dammit!!!), the reinforcements will surely be made either by defenders or its allies. All these make the situation even worse for attackers.

So lets see how seriously this system is fucked up:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


So:
  • 19 sieges is needed to take over the location
  • The total loss of defenders is 34029 troops
  • The total loss of attackers is 99174 troops; out of that 65145 NEVER FIGHTS on the battlefield, it is just a price to be paid for besieging the location.
19 sieges? 100.000 troops to take 34.000 garrison? WTF???? THIS IS SICK!

The most obvious strategy is to drop large number of troops to the Castle or Town, and if you reach certain critical number, you can be sure that you will never be wiped from the map.

CHANGE THE 1/3 RULE, DAMMIT!!!
(Right after fixing the catapults)

Attack other fiefs to draw those troops out of the city to help hold them, but you havent attacked any of their other fiefs so it just stockpiles in one.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on April 19, 2013, 05:26:54 pm
Attack other fiefs to draw those troops out of the city to help hold them, but you havent attacked any of their other fiefs so it just stockpiles in one.

Kesh, if you face a massive war and lose your fiefs one after another, what do you do in the end? You stockpile troops in the keep not to get wiped... Besides, this is only one location, there is more like that on the map. Cities and castles are not supposed to be invincible, there should be a reasonable way to take them after all, at high cost, I agree, but this is just outrageous...
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Keshian on April 20, 2013, 04:02:43 am
Something else- stockpiling all your troops in a  cityr ather than a very defensible castle - atatckers can cap flags if they do well and actuallys teal 30k troops from the defenders which is a huge risk compared to just leaving them in the city as attacker approaches.  As far as I know no grey order army has come even remotely close to the Narra area so no reason to take troops out.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on April 20, 2013, 04:16:43 am
Geeee.. it is not a question of Narra. The problem refers to every single town and castle on the map. The rule itself is wrong, Narra acts as an example here...
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on April 20, 2013, 09:12:12 am
Wow that was all far too complicated...

Don't worry I can fix it because I'm awesome and shit, no need to clap :D
------

Just jack the timer up by 3 hours for cities and castles.

So both cities and castle start with a default attack time of 3 hours + what ever the army size will add to the clock. If the amount of time for the battle is ramped up then the total amount of usable tickets is increased there for allowing larger armies to attack with out issue + bigger, longer more tactical battles would follow suit... hopefully.

I think a simple increase to the timer is by far the easiest thing to implement and is 100% worth trying out.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Segd on April 20, 2013, 09:38:05 am
I think a simple increase to the timer is by far the easiest thing to implement and is 100% worth trying out.
I remember 4-7 hours battles during Strat 1. was fun  :?
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: kinngrimm on April 20, 2013, 01:52:37 pm
If it would be a continious fight , where people who need to go then also could be swapped with new once who want to join in then it would be ok with a prolonged time.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Akhooey on April 20, 2013, 03:39:55 pm
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesupcoming#!?page=battledetail&id=2744

Like your signature, may the Dragon ride again on the winds of time
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Tactical_One on July 09, 2013, 11:46:45 am
To be honest its really historical rule. Never start a siege with 1 to 3 advantage.

There was no historical Timer. Or it works against defender (city besieged)
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: RandomDude on July 09, 2013, 02:22:51 pm
Im a bit out of the loop with strat seeing as I havent played for some time, but why was this rule introduced in the first place?

Was it because clans were just locking towns (with their own forces) basically abusing the mechanics?

If changes are made, they better be "abuse" proof because there are lots of clans who will just do anything they can to win, fair or not.
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Bohannon on July 09, 2013, 02:46:50 pm
I see and raise.

They should change that 1/3 rule for Sieges.

After 4500 army inside the fiefs, army upkeep should be same like traveller army. As an example, you have to pay 5232 golds for 4500 troops in a fief and 4176 golds for 1500 troops who are on field. If you had 6000 troops in a fief, you had to pay 5232+4176=9408 golds.

Now, if you have 6000 troops army in a fief, you should pay 7056. 2400 golds are between them. More you have after 4500, more you pay. It hasn't to be so basic to upkeep troops at fiefs.

Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 09, 2013, 04:28:55 pm
Im a bit out of the loop with strat seeing as I havent played for some time, but why was this rule introduced in the first place?

Was it because clans were just locking towns (with their own forces) basically abusing the mechanics?

If changes are made, they better be "abuse" proof because there are lots of clans who will just do anything they can to win, fair or not.

The change was implemented so that you couldn't attack a city with 1 troop, and essentially "lock" the fief from being useable.  It also prevented people with 1 troop flying across the map and stopping a 3000 man army. Can you imagine having your 3000 man army stopped for over 24 hours because one guy attacked you?  It also allowed you to catch up to someone, and stop them in place with hardly any troops, and then send reinforcements (even if they couldn't make it there in the 2 hour reinforcement window, you could have the army waiting there for when the battle was over). 
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Erasmas on November 18, 2013, 07:42:45 pm
It took a while, but

Harald: Skip 1/3 rule if attacker has at least 1800 troops.

THANK YOU !!!!!
Title: Re: Why the current battle system needs a fix… (in big battles)
Post by: Kalp on November 18, 2013, 10:04:14 pm
To war!!!
http://youtu.be/Afw8e-abVa8?t=1m25s (http://youtu.be/Afw8e-abVa8?t=1m25s)