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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: dynamike on March 05, 2013, 05:32:00 pm

Title: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: dynamike on March 05, 2013, 05:32:00 pm
First up, this is not a whine thread. I would like to understand if the community feels the change of crossbows (light and regular) to 2 slots was warranted and what the pro's & con's are.

2 SLOT XBOWS YAY or NAY?

Pro's of the change:

Con's of the change:

Was the feeling in the community that the combination of two-slot main weapon and one-slot crossbow + bolts was overpowered? Is the intention to make all crossbow users 1 handers only? Was there simply too much ranged in game?

Are there alternatives to fix the con's without resulting in two-slot crossbows? Is this only a way to address the root cause issue: no dedicated point investment necessary to use an xbow?


Discuss and I will add your comments to the pro's and con's.


(click to show/hide)


*Edited from two
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Osiris on March 05, 2013, 05:38:56 pm
why only two? do you people forget about the poor Military sickle? 31 pierce or something mw in 2h mode. probably why mine was instantly taken from the marketplace when patch hit.



I would be in favour of making the bastard/hbs and or longsword 1 slot to compensate 2hders and spear and hafted blade 1 slot for polearms. would be nice i think


Also Hunting Xbow! Use it well ^^
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: pepejul on March 05, 2013, 05:40:31 pm
I always play with arbalest so I don't care =)
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Rhygar666 on March 05, 2013, 05:42:12 pm
i rarely 1shotted anyone with light crossbow, damage isnt so great. maybe with a headshot but those are rare as well. i dont understand why that was changed now.
id understand if normal crossbow was made 2 slots again, but please revert light xbow
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 05, 2013, 05:42:33 pm
I'd say it was well needed, as the range spam from "casuals" using the standard crossbow was absurd, and I am so grateful that the crossbow spam was finally taken care of. 2 Slots for the light seems a bit odd, but I'm neutral on that and waiting to see.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Rumblood on March 05, 2013, 05:44:06 pm
Pro: Brings xbow into parity with archery where weapon options are concerned, especially the HX/HA disparity.

I would be in favour of making the bastard/hbs and or longsword 1 slot to compensate 2hders and spear and hafted blade 1 slot for polearms. would be nice i think.

2 handers weren't affected. Xbow users who also wanted a 2 hander were, but they don't need the compensation. See the parity comment above.

i rarely 1shotted anyone with light crossbow, damage isnt so great. maybe with a headshot but those are rare as well. i dont understand why that was changed now.
id understand if normal crossbow was made 2 slots again, but please revert light xbow

It certainly performs one-shot kills from horseback.  :idea:
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Rhygar666 on March 05, 2013, 05:45:30 pm

It certainly performs one-shot kills from horseback.  :idea:
yeah maybe better on horseback, but it isnt so great on foot, maybe  make only hunting crossbow usable on horseback and change light crossbow back.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Osiris on March 05, 2013, 05:47:37 pm
I see people QQing about not being able to use pierce or blunt well


http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=equipshop&cat=onehanded#!?page=itemdetail&id=197

that has 2h mode, not amazing but it is 100 speed 31ish pierce at mw
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: gdijim on March 05, 2013, 05:47:48 pm
It looks like they tried to help sword and board crossbows, because they put in a 0 slot 1 hander.    However, it's kind of a boner for me, since I used an Arabian Cav sword.

Sure wish the light crossbow was 1 slot again. :/  Not sure what I'm going to do yet.

Release_Arrows
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 05, 2013, 05:52:21 pm
the 2 slots on the light seems to be geared towards HX, but it really only affects a hybrid HX(one that wants to fight) rather than a pure.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Swaggart on March 05, 2013, 05:57:22 pm
I'd say it was well needed, as the range spam from "casuals" using the standard crossbow was absurd, and I am so grateful that the crossbow spam was finally taken care of. 2 Slots for the light seems a bit odd, but I'm neutral on that and waiting to see.

Unless you invested points into crossbow you reloaded as fast as your grampa gets an erection. If you mean spam as in the proliferation, the same thought applies. Doesn't matter if there are several crossbows on one team, since they are very vulnerable while reloading.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: dynamike on March 05, 2013, 05:57:42 pm
Pro: Brings xbow into parity with archery where weapon options are concerned, especially the HX/HA disparity.

I do disagree here. When it comes to weapons choice, bows currently have 6 one-slot options and only 2 two-slot options. Combine that with 1 stack of arrows and you have a viable 2hander archer combo. I have on of these alts myself.

I know one stack of arrows is not ideal, but hybrids always need to sacrifice somewhere.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 05, 2013, 05:59:56 pm
its realistic that you cant use two crossbows, but my lvl 30 7/33 double xbow shotgunner is fucked now. please add some onehanded xbows
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 05, 2013, 06:02:18 pm
I think the 2h/xbow hybrids were overpowered, basically having ranged at no cost. I would have rather seen a minimum wpf requirement instead of making the crossbow two slots since it seems like if you want to play that class then the arb is a better choice.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: dynamike on March 05, 2013, 06:04:10 pm
I think the 2h/xbow hybrids were overpowered, basically having ranged at no cost. I would have rather seen a minimum wpf requirement instead of making the crossbow two slots since it seems like if you want to play that class then the arb is a better choice.

I agree with you, a lot of "non-casual" hybrids like myself had xbow wpf (>100 in my case) though.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tibe on March 05, 2013, 06:06:03 pm
I wish there were like thingies like tiny assassino pocket cbows or something like that. But that nerf was well deserved imo. The cbowspam did go little overboard from time to time.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Shadowren on March 05, 2013, 06:08:56 pm
Killed my current xbow build :/ I guess ill be selling/trading looms for better xbow equipment.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Rumblood on March 05, 2013, 06:25:11 pm
I do disagree here. When it comes to weapons choice, bows currently have 6 one-slot options and only 2 two-slot options. Combine that with 1 stack of arrows and you have a viable 2hander archer combo. I have on of these alts myself.

I know one stack of arrows is not ideal, but hybrids always need to sacrifice somewhere.

So get a hunting crossbow and BAM! You have a 2 hander xbow combo. That is indeed parity. Sure, you won't one shot nearly as much anymore, but you won't one-shot any less than with a 1 slot bow. That archer taking a 2 hander is sacrificing an entire quiver of arrows, as much as 27 of them! So I don't see that you have a valid point.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: dynamike on March 05, 2013, 07:11:02 pm
So get a hunting crossbow and BAM! You have a 2 hander xbow combo. That is indeed parity. Sure, you won't one shot nearly as much anymore, but you won't one-shot any less than with a 1 slot bow. That archer taking a 2 hander is sacrificing an entire quiver of arrows, as much as 27 of them! So I don't see that you have a valid point.

I never one shotted anyone, even with MW xbow and MW steel bolts - unless on some headshots. And that is only with one stack of bolts - this means only 12 bolts instead of 27 arrows - so there you have your parity.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Crob28 on March 05, 2013, 07:12:07 pm
More QQ less pewpew
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Smoothrich on March 05, 2013, 07:54:16 pm
I suggested making the regular xbow 2 slots if "you really wanted to completely kill the 2hand/xbow hybrid forever and ruin countless players high level builds" then said that's probably a bad idea.

Welp.  I'm sure it was an idea thrown around anyways but I brought it up as the "worst possible choice" in being extreme and anti-fun and I'm pretty sure that's how balance is done.

My "slightly more measured" suggestion was to basically step all xbow stats down to the one below it.  So horse xbows had to use the hunting xbow (maybe buffed a bit) and 2 slot melee weapon users had to use an xbow more like the light xbow.

Really just something between the regular and light xbow, something that could hardly snipe but still be effective at shooting horses and stuff.

Sadly I think all of this is a massive buff to cav (which I just went back to lol  regular lance/2hander hybrid never fails) and is going to lead sooner then later to throwing dominating the servers again as the go to hybrid.  I'd much rather have every nerd camping and being kind of useless with xbows then spamming overpowered throwing axes at everything and 1 shotting every horse/blackbarring heavy infantry.

Basically I'm fine with the patch if you go back and nerf throwing some more.  Thanks for the balance.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: WeeBo on March 05, 2013, 08:19:59 pm
I am as worthless as ever now thanks devs. I'm glad i put so many thousands of hours to this game just to get shit on.  Cry babies ruined it for me so its my turn. WAH WAH WAH  :cry: :cry: :cry:


Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: pepejul on March 05, 2013, 08:28:26 pm
add a little blade in front of xbow and make it 3 slot and melee mode.... nice idea PEPE !!!
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Kryser on March 05, 2013, 08:33:19 pm
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THIS SHOULD NOT BE EFFECTIVE, STFU U bundle of sticks XBOWS
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Lennu on March 05, 2013, 08:38:13 pm
This whole patch was a great success IMO. Only thing remaining to do is to fine-tune some of the items. Short Arming Sword and Nordic Short War Sword for example.

So yes, 2slot xbows was a good thing.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: pepejul on March 05, 2013, 08:47:40 pm
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 (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=384953pepexbow.jpg)

Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on March 05, 2013, 08:59:31 pm
Pro's of the change:


   I do like diversity and think hybrid builds in other games can be good. However in CRPG hybrid builds are really messed up, for a tiny investment of say 5-10% at the very most of your points you can be just as effective at something (5 points in riding for cav and can play cav and melle just as good as any dedicated build) or in this case with xbows, a 0% investment of your skills you can be both a melle and ranged at near full effectiveness and this is obviously very bad. A real hybrid build is where a player isnt great at 1 thing or another, they are mediocre at both but they have that veristilty, in CRPG you can easily be great at both things your hybrid in with little to no investment. I would prefer to have hybrids, but it requires a much greater skill investment in teh two things your a hybrid in, cav is pretty bad in this reguard (im saying this and im "hybrid" melle cav), melle xbowers where the worst and im glad for the change.

Con's of the change:
   
Fixed imo.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on March 05, 2013, 09:10:40 pm
I never one shotted anyone, even with MW xbow and MW steel bolts - unless on some headshots. And that is only with one stack of bolts - this means only 12 bolts instead of 27 arrows - so there you have your parity.

Can't put  an opinion down atm because I'm tight on time. But I just wanted to say, a shot in my chest from +3 xbow with +3 steel bolts would do 3/4 of my health. Keep in mind I wear +2 plate mittens and +3 heraldic mail with tabard and have 7 IF. Was a little ridiculous. :/
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on March 05, 2013, 09:14:00 pm
Ya apple thats the thing. Its not all that fair that you can blackbar me with an arbalast, it doesnt matter you have no skill in it it still hits like a truck and its not hard to hit someone with it even without any WPF. Its dumb that you can carry this shotgun around, invest no points in it, blackbar me when im coming at you and then once i engage you in combat your just as effective as a full melle build, which is what you are. An archer could shoot me several times while im coming at them and blackbar me but once i engage in melle combat they are at a serious disadvantage.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 05, 2013, 09:15:21 pm
I think this was necessary. Completely prevents me from taking a crossbow with 1 wpf when I go swinging my axe on foot. I only did it because a big bunch of others did the same thing. Now I should not have the need for that anymore.

Sure it made some slasher xbow hybrids not usable, but I guess that's the price we have to pay...
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on March 05, 2013, 09:21:39 pm
Ya apple thats the thing. Its not all that fair that you can blackbar me with an arbalast, it doesnt matter you have no skill in it it still hits like a truck and its not hard to hit someone with it even without any WPF. Its dumb that you can carry this shotgun around, invest no points in it, blackbar me when im coming at you and then once i engage you in combat your just as effective as a full melle build, which is what you are. An archer could shoot me several times while im coming at them and blackbar me but once i engage in melle combat they are at a serious disadvantage.

Agreed. Using an xbow needs to have a downside. I remember when I was leveling as a peasant after retiring, I just ran around with an xbow or arbalest with no wpf because it was more effective then melee as a peasant. It's really ridiculous how accurate and fast I was with 0 wpf. I was getting kill shots left and right. I think this needed to be done.

Also; were you being hypothetical Lemmy or do you believe I'm an xbow user? If so I think you may have me confused for someone else lol. :shock:
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Turboflex on March 05, 2013, 09:26:33 pm
I don't think hybrid 2h/pole + xbow was a big problem. used by meleers they are anti-kite measures, it allowed more people to take on the real crap that ruins c-rpg like kiters, archers camping hard to reach spots, and circling opportunist cav. Watch archers and cav get more out of control now with less xbows around to fire at them long range.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: dynamike on March 05, 2013, 09:30:25 pm
I think this was necessary. Completely prevents me from taking a crossbow with 1 wpf when I go swinging my axe on foot. I only did it because a big bunch of others did the same thing. Now I should not have the need for that anymore.

Sure it made some slasher xbow hybrids not usable, but I guess that's the price we have to pay...

I don't disagree with your point that there needed to be more requirements for xbow usage. But for people that invested (WPF) in being able to use an xbow, it ruined it.

The thought counts, just the ways of going about it are flawed.


I don't think hybrid 2h/pole + xbow was a big problem. used by meleers they are anti-kite measures, it allowed more people to take on the real crap that ruins c-rpg like kiters, archers camping hard to reach spots, and circling opportunist cav. Watch archers and cav get more out of control now with less xbows around to fire at them long range.

Also this.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: the real god emperor on March 05, 2013, 09:32:48 pm
It just made normal xbow useless.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on March 05, 2013, 09:44:52 pm
I don't think hybrid 2h/pole + xbow was a big problem. used by meleers they are anti-kite measures, it allowed more people to take on the real crap that ruins c-rpg like kiters, archers camping hard to reach spots, and circling opportunist cav. Watch archers and cav get more out of control now with less xbows around to fire at them long range.

Not sure about these points here:

Kiters: By kiting i assume your refering to archers, do you expect them to stand there and let you kill them? They are ranged they are doing what they are supposed to do. If your not referring to them kiting is a legitamte strategy. No one is forcing you to follow the kiter. Many times i get dehorsed behind enemy lines, like 5 people will try to jump me, i know theres no way i can kill them so i hold block and backpedal, leading the 5 guys out of the combat area so that they cannot help their team. Its their choice if they want to follow someone out into an uninhabited forest while their team is dieing because they are 5 men down no one is making them follow me the kiter, and tehy would have to be pretty stupid to follow me or any kiter in a situation like that. Dont follow the kiter, go help your team he cant make you follow him.

Archers camping: Again they are ranged this is what they are supposed to do its not cheap crap. The only archer i can recall camping hard to reach places is ivana, who wall walked onto some ledge a week ago or so and delayed the game. When archers camp they are almost never in a place you cant hit by jsut jump slashing its not hard. Plus its not liek their arent other archers to shoot them.

Opertunist cav: Again this is what cav are supposed to do its how the class is played its not cheap crap that you need xbows for to counter. Why would a cav willingly attack someoen whose aware of his presence and will defend himself when he could safely stab someone in the back? Unless your GL/HL cav you basically have to do this to avoid serious harm or death, at the speed your going if you get hit your probably dead. Again just pay attention to whats going on around you and you wont be a victim of opertunist cav.

And furthermore i would argue this change will cause the birht of the xbow class which never existed really, becuase who would be dedicated xbow when you can be melle and use an xbow almost just as well.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Duster on March 05, 2013, 09:45:51 pm
Poor Remnants, half of their player's builds made useless in one fell patch. :|
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tydeus on March 05, 2013, 10:52:48 pm
Stop being so stubborn, and start putting throwing into your 2h/polearm builds. Oh wait, you'd actually have to sacrifice something for the increased versatility, guess not!  :?

Edit: Sacrificing 3 skill points for wm so you can get wpf in your crossbow isn't nearly enough considering how much effectiveness you gain from bringing the crossbow with your 2 slot melee weapon.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: XXTNTXX on March 05, 2013, 11:30:54 pm
please revert light xbow to 1 slot
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: karasu on March 05, 2013, 11:38:29 pm
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Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Prpavi on March 05, 2013, 11:42:26 pm
im down fro 3 slot xbows.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: dynamike on March 06, 2013, 01:21:54 am
Stop being so stubborn, and start putting throwing into your 2h/polearm builds. Oh wait, you'd actually have to sacrifice something for the increased versatility, guess not!  :?

Edit: Sacrificing 3 skill points for wm so you can get wpf in your crossbow isn't nearly enough considering how much effectiveness you gain from bringing the crossbow with your 2 slot melee weapon.

Used to do that as well for some gens and had fun doing it.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: EyeBeat on March 06, 2013, 01:24:03 am
I think the 2h/xbow hybrids were overpowered, basically having ranged at no cost.

This.  I am happy with the change.

The problem was you had these 2 handers with tons of armor hiding behind cover the whole round taking pot shots.  It was a min/maxer hybrid class and it really needed to go.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: oohillac on March 06, 2013, 01:37:23 am
The problem was you had these 2 handers with tons of armor hiding behind cover the whole round taking pot shots.  It was a min/maxer hybrid class and it really needed to go.

This 100%.  Fighting past a whole team, charging through a rain of bolts, only to find a well-armoured, full-health pure greatsword user with 2 extra WM for the crossbow was ridiculous.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: SHinOCk on March 06, 2013, 01:51:41 am
Im happy with the change, Having an xbow and doing max ranged damage at no cost beside some wpf for better accuracy was stupid and Op

I do think that people lvl 34 and up affected by this change (mainly 2h/xbow) should receive a respec book because while its still a ''Beta'', Its not fair for someone to have his whole build screwed and having no kind of compensation after having spend like 50 million exp and countless hours tweaking it.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: isatis on March 06, 2013, 02:11:20 am
I'm pretty sure the guy who sold me his mw hunting xbow for 900k is mad now :P

(P.-S. I do not own this awesomeness for now... I had pity of Techno and got a +3 long dagger after some trading :P )
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Keening on March 06, 2013, 03:32:39 am
2 Slot change to crossbow was heavily needed. If there were no changes to 1 handed weapons this would be a significantly larger nerf. However with many new 0 slot 1 handed it is great. I think intention here is in efforts to fix all of those Crossbowmen using two handed weapons. Just my two cents, game on!
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Malaclypse on March 06, 2013, 03:40:29 am
Overall it was needed, but Light Crossbow should have been left 1 slot to give hybrids at least SOME option (not considering Hunting Crossbow an option, but Light Crossbow was/is actually viable on foot).
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 06, 2013, 03:48:15 am
Overall it was needed, but Light Crossbow should have been left 1 slot to give hybrids at least SOME option (not considering Hunting Crossbow an option, but Light Crossbow was/is actually viable on foot).

Ain't going to happen, cause HX's are the most evil existence so HX must be nerfed....oh wait, they weren't nerfed, they'll still carry 1 xbow and 2 bolts, they just lost 1 bolt slot.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: gdijim on March 06, 2013, 03:57:17 am
I think that Light crossbow should have remained the same as well.

Look - obviously not going to start some sort of big 'quitting' post, but this was a giant kick in the ass this late in the game to have the light crossbow, of all things, be changed to two slot.  As I've played a horse Xbow sword/board hybrid for 20 gens, I don't think I'll be changing it up.  I'll most likely just play less.  Fuck it.

If you want to really balance crossbow, go off WPF as what you're allowed to use.  I sacrificed all my iron-flesh points in order to do a truly hybrid build - 131 crossbow, 108 1 hand, which meant I had to keep a balanced 18/18 build to get 6 Weapon proficiency.  If the target of this change is two-hand hero's wielding x-bows, then put in something to check WPF instead of making it a slot thing.

Anyway - this was lame.

Release_Arrows
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Balikar on March 06, 2013, 04:24:16 am
I have to agree with Release on this one.  I don't see the need for the change. 
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Rumblood on March 06, 2013, 06:56:05 am
Overall it was needed, but Light Crossbow should have been left 1 slot to give hybrids at least SOME option (not considering Hunting Crossbow an option, but Light Crossbow was/is actually viable on foot).

37 pierce, 45 when MW isn't "viable"??

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Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Kamirane on March 06, 2013, 06:57:53 am
Anwser to the orignial post
(click to show/hide)

They all can still use a Hunting-Xbow. So they just lost a bit damage on the secondary Weapon. But as a Shielder, for example, u got now new good weapons and also 0-Slot-Weapons to balance this out.

But maybe it will be more realistic if X-Bows have a need in WPF to be able to aim right like Archery. Its alot difference between swinging a Weapon and aiming with a ranged weapon.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Malaclypse on March 06, 2013, 07:32:53 am
37 pierce, 45 when MW isn't "viable"??

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Maybe so, but it's about at the level of the Nomad Bow/Bodkins with 6 PD.

Archers have 6 bows they can easily hybrid any melee class with, 4 of which are damn good, and 2 bows they can hybrid with using a zero slot or less ammo.

 Crossbows have 1 item they can easily hybrid any melee class with, and four they can take less bolts or a zero slot with. Archers should have more bows they're able to hybridize easily with since they do have to invest more into their use, but it just seems pretty extreme. Making just the crossbow 2 slots seems like enough, unless we're going to make Horn/Yumi 2 slots as well.

I understand that the Crossbow was pretty powerful, and probably the easiest Crossbow to use with low prof, and because of this yeah, it deserves the two-slot tag. But from my experience using MW Light Crossbow + MW Steel Bolts with 170 prof it hardly seems like it was deserving of the loss (without a boost to some of it's stats as the Crossbow received on Damage).
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Nihtgenga on March 06, 2013, 08:56:51 pm
what I dont get is why they destroy 2h/polearm - xbow hybrids but make it easier for 1h/shield/xbow hybrids.

I think it is the wrong way to reduce the 2h/xbow hybrids on the battlefield. A higher wpf requirement would have been better. it reduces the xbows but still gives the people a chance to have a bit of a diversified playstyle (dedicated hybrids)
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Kamirane on March 06, 2013, 09:15:36 pm

Archers have 6 bows they can easily hybrid any melee class with, 4 of which are damn good, and 2 bows they can hybrid with using a zero slot or less ammo.

 

But i think u forgot about 1 important thing. U need alot WPF in Archery to get some aim and damage. X-Bow doesnt rly need WPF.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 06, 2013, 09:17:42 pm
But i think u forget about 1 important thing. U need alot WPF in Archery to get some aim and damage. X-Bow doesnt rly need WPF.

haha. 4 pd and 60 wpf and I'm good to go with medium armor.

They lowered the PD wpf requirement so the "U NEED GOOD INVESTMENT" is actually false. 5 PD plus about 80 wpf and I'm perfectly viable hybrid able to use most bows and do decent damage.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Kamirane on March 06, 2013, 09:31:57 pm
haha. 4 pd and 60 wpf and I'm good to go with medium armor.

They lowered the PD wpf requirement so the "U NEED GOOD INVESTMENT" is actually false. 5 PD plus about 80 wpf and I'm perfectly viable hybrid able to use most bows and do decent damage.


Thats what i talk about. You need with X-Bow, to have a similar build (just switch Archery and X-Bow), no skillpoints and no WPF - ok give the 60-80 WPF to X-bow... you still loose 4-5 skillpoints.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Turboflex on March 06, 2013, 09:34:45 pm
This 100%.  Fighting past a whole team, charging through a rain of bolts, only to find a well-armoured, full-health pure greatsword user with 2 extra WM for the crossbow was ridiculous.

These people are taking a risk. If theyre a good player and wanna spend the key initial moments of the infantry engagement sitting in the back behind a tree taking  potshots at people with their secondary weapon instead of actually applying all that armor and hero weapon to a heavy melee fight, they're gonna find themselves quickly outnumbered. So they may as well be in cloth and using a heavyxbow or arbalast. The majority of battle rounds are won in the first minute during the infantry clash.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 06, 2013, 09:36:27 pm
These people are taking a risk. If theyre a good player and wanna spend the key initial moments of the infantry engagement sitting in the back behind a tree taking  potshots at people with their secondary weapon instead of actually applying all that armor and hero weapon to a heavy melee fight, they're gonna find themselves quickly outnumbered. So they may as well be in cloth and using a heavyxbow or arbalast. The majority of battle rounds are won in the first minute during the infantry clash.
Not in EU, they're usually first settled here in the second smaller clash of the people who stayed behind/survived the initial one.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 06, 2013, 09:48:12 pm
haha. 4 pd and 60 wpf and I'm good to go with medium armor.

They lowered the PD wpf requirement so the "U NEED GOOD INVESTMENT" is actually false. 5 PD plus about 80 wpf and I'm perfectly viable hybrid able to use most bows and do decent damage.

Compared to the crossbow were all you need is...the crossbow and the bolts.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Sultan Eren on March 06, 2013, 09:57:21 pm
Best thing that ever happened in crpg history.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Rumblood on March 07, 2013, 02:47:53 am
Maybe so, but it's about at the level of the Nomad Bow/Bodkins with 6 PD.

I use the Nomad Bow with 3 PD and normal arrows, so it is far more powerful that what I use. You aren't giving a reason it needs to be changed to be even more powerful.

(Yes, to attain the level of accuracy and ammo capacity to be effective in my class, I don't have room to upgrade without being level 34+ and that isn't something that should be required for the average casual and or especially a new player to be expected to achieve for effectiveness just to compete with what xbows get out of the box)
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 07, 2013, 03:34:11 am
Maybe so, but it's about at the level of the Nomad Bow/Bodkins with 6 PD.


I'd hate to say it but a HX using that and then comparing him to a HA with 6PD is going to result in a wildly inaccurate HA for comparison at level 30.


It seems justified to me, but that is just me. For the savings of 6 skill points you have a weapon that sacrifices an additional slot, this seems fair-ish.


Last Point: The 'community' hated kiting archers with no melee weapon, this two-slot light crossbow change now leaves almost zero excuse for HX and "greased lightning" run-and-gun light crossbow ground builds to take a weapon.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Emotion on March 11, 2013, 07:13:03 pm
All you casual wanna-be crossbowers, saying the arb is better than the heavy is another sign of a standard pleb.

_/

-Yours Truly
               -NA Top Shot
                                 -Noodles
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tindel on March 12, 2013, 12:29:10 am
If it means less people shooting me its a good change.

Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Thedric on March 12, 2013, 01:22:38 am
Hybrids imho are a bullshit class, that has no place in this mod. If it were up to me id make archers useless at melee, slow down 2h to a point where they'd be forced to armor crutch, make spears more deadly (therefore more common) and buff horses so that spears slow them down by a certain mount, not stop them completely(right now a plated charger can be stopped by a single shitty peasant spear). Basically id like to see cRPG combat resemble the reality as much as possible, moving the focus away from individuals and towards teamwork. I mean c'mon, you think the crusaders had 2h heroes running around the field in light armor assassinating the enemies by their dozens?
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Strider on March 12, 2013, 01:42:41 am
Complete BS. I despise anything that limits the amount of gameplay styles we can choose from.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 12, 2013, 01:59:07 am
the light xbow was never a strong weapon. It was a fun weapon to use with a xbow shotgun runner, i had so much fun with it. whats left now? a useless piece of shit that also isnt fun anymore.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tydeus on March 12, 2013, 07:14:09 am
I despise anything that limits the amount of gameplay styles we can choose from.
This is the only argument for not making the crossbow 2 slots that makes me hesitant in supporting the change. All the other ones I've seen so far are just varying degrees of QQ.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tzar on March 12, 2013, 09:24:23 am
A requirement for using crossbows would have been a better option.

But as usual the devs fix things with a sledgehammer  :lol:
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Rumblood on March 12, 2013, 03:22:36 pm
This is the only argument for not making the crossbow 2 slots that makes me hesitant in supporting the change. All the other ones I've seen so far are just varying degrees of QQ.

Yes, but this isn't just a limitation for xbows in isolation. It is simply bringing xbows into line with the limitations placed upon the rest of the game.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: BlueKnight on March 12, 2013, 03:44:43 pm
2 slot xbows in trade for 0 slot swords. Where is the problem? Hunting crossbow is still 1 slot

The thing is that xbowmen never needed 0 slot weapons because they always had 1 free slot and therefore your reasoning is wrong. Also hunting crossbow is just a joke...

Imho strength requirement on crossbows should be higher (more str) and slot change wouldn't be needed at all. Obviously it would be necessary to implement free respec for errybody which is something that devs won't do never ever. It means that developers are trying to omit that requirement change and wanted to replace it with other system that doesn't have to work like intended and changes values of items drastically.

I just wonder why they changed stats of shitload of weapons but left heavy glance like it's now...
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 13, 2013, 03:26:48 pm
Complete BS. I despise anything that limits the amount of gameplay styles we can choose from.

Then you must have been furious when slots were introduced, because that's all they were intended for.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Balikar on March 31, 2013, 04:34:14 pm
So why this thread then?

Because Two handers specifically got nixed from the equation.  There are zero 0 slot two handers, and thus, a crossbowman two hander hybrid was forced to respec, and by forced I'm actually referring to two handers that spec'd into crossbows. 

And with the advent of spikes, something designed IMO to stop horses from tearing up ranged, crossbowman can't use those either.  Those are a simple, one and done toss.  Mind you, I understand the 'reality' of spikes being two slots... bulky, cumbersome pieces of wood...  though I hate to use the term reality in any relation to any video game.

Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Grumbs on March 31, 2013, 04:55:27 pm
Use Hunting Crossbow. The whole concept of having good ranged and the best melee is absurd anyway
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Balikar on March 31, 2013, 05:14:07 pm
Use Hunting Crossbow. The whole concept of having good ranged and the best melee is absurd anyway

Or Grumbs, you can actually read what was posted before spitting out drivel like the above.  I talked about spec'ing.  If a person specs two weapons, they won't be the 'best' melee, nor ranged.  And in my post I specifically talked about two handers that spec'd into crossbow.  Now you can raise the argument that you don't need to spec at all into crossbow, but the problem there is... That's the actual problem.  ;-)

Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Grumbs on March 31, 2013, 05:49:04 pm
Are you complaining about WPF now, like it matters for melee? I can use a great maul with 1 wpf and still hit stuff, wpf for melee is totally optional. Having 100 or 150 melee weapon is nothing

So you are best of both worlds without this slot tweak since wpf is still not balanced for melee weapons

You can use xbows with 1 wpf too, they are just poorly implemented in general. Slots system is all that they have to balance atm
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Duster on March 31, 2013, 08:44:27 pm
I think most people are just fine with 2h getting a nerf, however indirect, because they have been so historically untouched.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Balikar on March 31, 2013, 09:18:47 pm
Are you complaining about WPF now, like it matters for melee? I can use a great maul with 1 wpf and still hit stuff, wpf for melee is totally optional. Having 100 or 150 melee weapon is nothing

So you are best of both worlds without this slot tweak since wpf is still not balanced for melee weapons

You can use xbows with 1 wpf too, they are just poorly implemented in general. Slots system is all that they have to balance atm

By that logic, all shields should be two slot, and all bows too.  That way archers stay archers, sword and boards stay true, etc etc. 
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Grumbs on March 31, 2013, 09:48:36 pm
No its about sacrificing one thing for another. You shouldn't have good ranged ability as well as very similar melee ability as a pure melee guys. Thats not balanced. You have to take it on a case by case basis rather than blanket "keep all classes pure". Like for example shielders aren't necessarily unbalanced by allowing them to have a 1 hander as well as a spear. They are still fulfilling a similar role. A bow user can use 1 or 0 slot weapons which give them mediocre melee ability compared to pure melee guys (and tend to use weaker armour). A xbow user doesn't need to sacrifice much at all for his build, it is nearly pure melee and pure ranged so the devs need to limit their capabilities a bit to try to create balance.

Jack of all trades, master of everything doesn't work in games like this. You shouldn't have the best xbows and 2handers/poles with very similar builds/capabilities as pure melee guys
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Balikar on March 31, 2013, 09:57:35 pm
No its about sacrificing one thing for another. You shouldn't have good ranged ability as well as very similar melee ability as a pure melee guys. Thats not balanced. You have to take it on a case by case basis rather than blanket "keep all classes pure". Like for example shielders aren't necessarily unbalanced by allowing them to have a 1 hander as well as a spear. They are still fulfilling a similar role. A bow user can use 1 or 0 slot weapons which give them mediocre melee ability compared to pure melee guys (and tend to use weaker armour). A xbow user doesn't need to sacrifice much at all for his build, it is nearly pure melee and pure ranged so the devs need to limit their capabilities a bit to try to create balance.

Jack of all trades, master of everything doesn't work in games like this. You shouldn't have the best xbows and 2handers/poles with very similar builds/capabilities as pure melee guys

Ah, but Grumbs, you can have an archer/shielder with:  1 slot bow, 1 slot quiver, 1 slot sword, 1 slot shield.  Afterall, according to you, 100 or 150 wpf doesn't change a thing.

Please note, I'm not disagreeing that crossbows need to be limited.  I simply disagree with the means to limit them.  If you were to attribute WPF checks to equipping the crossbow, versus a slot (ie keep them one slot) then you have limited their ability in the same fashion as you would other weaponry (since now they have to train in it). 

There are already limitations in place otherwise.  Standing very still to load a crossbow, plus the load times are far worse than an archer's.  Couple that with the number of bolts carried...
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Grumbs on March 31, 2013, 10:11:52 pm
Ah, but Grumbs, you can have an archer/shielder with:  1 slot bow, 1 slot quiver, 1 slot sword, 1 slot shield.  Afterall, according to you, 100 or 150 wpf doesn't change a thing.

To use a bow effectively you need to put at least 4-5 points into powerdraw, and you need points for the shield too for to be useful. WPF is much more necessary than xbows so they can hit accurately. Powerdraw actually reduces your bow WPF per point you add.

Bows are a more constant threat on the battlefield though since they don't have reload time, but xbows hit harder and the projectiles travel faster so are easier to hit with. Bow users get through ammo at a much faster pace than xbows, so 1 quiver affects them more than xbowers. If it were up to me I would limit bows more too because I think its a very lame playstyle in a melee game, especially when the ranged mechanics are so underdeveloped. Crosshairs and fast projectiles just doesn't cut it in this game

I don't think WPF is enough to limit xbows, and I think the slot system is a more elegant way to balance imo. I don't think xbowers should have access to 2 handers/poles at all imo, especially without any sort of powerdraw type skill. Xbows are way too easy to use well for people to use the best melee weapons too
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Tydeus on April 01, 2013, 05:03:27 am
Specialization isn't rewarded in crpg(you could say it's actually penalized), even when talking about ranged classes, and there's a really easy way to understand how this could be. It's called skill point conversions and WPF looking like a square root function. To put it simply:

1) You don't gain nearly enough compared to what you lose by converting 6 skill points into three attributes.
2) Currently with 7 WM you can either get 163 wpf in one weapon or you could split and get 150 in your main(archery), and 90 in a secondary(melee).

I hope I wouldn't have to actually explain the skill point one, just look at a 14 point conversion build (I run these all the time) or a 20 point conversion build. They're utterly lacking in effectiveness. Losing roughly 13 wpf in your main weapon to gain 90 in a secondary(crossbows), is getting the best of both worlds. Any denial of this fact could only come from either bias, or ignorance of game mechanics.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Berserkadin on April 01, 2013, 12:19:02 pm
2h can still use the hunting crossbow as a sidearm. You have to choose between better melee or better ranged, wich is just fair.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Kamirane on April 02, 2013, 11:06:16 am
Ah, but Grumbs, you can have an archer/shielder with:  1 slot bow, 1 slot quiver, 1 slot sword, 1 slot shield.  Afterall, according to you, 100 or 150 wpf doesn't change a thing.

make an archer as STF and try to shoot with 100 or 150 wpf. u will see a significant difference. Its even a lot of difference 160 to 170.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 03, 2013, 06:43:20 pm
I think it's a good change (as someone who's only alt is a level 30 xbow/2h char).  I really liked being able to take my xbow/steelbolts and a 2h sword, but I think this is a better change for gameplay.  I would either need to be a 1h/xbow user or use a 1 slot 2h (like the mace or some of the 1h/2h weapons like military pick).  I don't think it was "fair" that I was able to pew pew and then whip out my great sword or long sword and be almost as good as a dedicated 2h'er.

I didn't like using the light xbow compared to the xbow, so I could see making that back to 1 slot
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Gristle on April 18, 2013, 01:46:05 pm
I haven't played in a while, so forgive the late post.

What they've done is make the Light Crossbow and Light Crossbow completely worthless, and the market reflects this. Crossbow is now objectively better than the Light Crossbow. Heavy Crossbow is now objectively better than the Crossbow. Arbalest is still objectively better than the Heavy, and now the other 2 as well. Some people do prefer the Heavy to the Arbalest because of the Arbalest's shot delay, but there's no reason to use the others when the Heavy is an option. They've made this mistake with some weapons and shields in the past (my shield has gone between 1 and 2 slots at least twice), and all it ever does is make those items a waste of space. It's the lazy and wrong way to fix a problem.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Shaksie on April 18, 2013, 01:49:44 pm
why only two? do you people forget about the poor Military sickle? 31 pierce or something mw in 2h mode. probably why mine was instantly taken from the marketplace when patch hit.
I would be in favour of making the bastard/hbs and or longsword 1 slot to compensate 2hders and spear and hafted blade 1 slot for polearms. would be nice i think
Also Hunting Xbow! Use it well ^^
In my experience, Longsword and Bastard swords are overpowered, they most certainly do not need a buff.
Military sickle is very short and doesn't have a stab.
Hunting xbow is a piece of crap!

Nerf 2h strength builds.
Buff everything else!
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Duster on May 23, 2013, 05:01:30 pm
I haven't played in a while, so forgive the late post.



(click to show/hide)

Broad Short Sword?
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Malaclypse on May 23, 2013, 05:04:44 pm
Broad Short Sword?

Also Short Falchion, Short Sword, Short Arming Sword (this one is beast to boot), Scottish Sword... c'mon Gristle, open them peepers.
Title: Re: What do you think of the 2 slot xbows change?
Post by: Jarlek on May 23, 2013, 05:51:29 pm
Also Short Falchion, Short Sword, Short Arming Sword (this one is beastly sexy to boot), Scottish Sword... c'mon Gristle, open them peepers.
FTFY

Now I got meself a loomed Long Arming Sword AND a Short Arming Sword! They look so cute next to each other :D

Is there a way to move the sheath of one of them to the right hip, btw?