cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Thomek on February 28, 2013, 10:22:41 am

Title: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Thomek on February 28, 2013, 10:22:41 am
So here's a crazy idea :)

Since I believe that shaking up cRPG now and then is a good thing, not a bad thing, keeping the mod and community alive, here is my idea:  (And it would take away workload from the devs after a small initial period of teaching and adjusting!)

* To create a group of 3 players on Election that are responsible for balance changes and introducing new equipment to cRPG.

* Devs would teach 2 capable, stable and trustable membesr of the community HOW to implement these changes. These persons cannot be in the committee, as they are simply doing as the comittee decides. These people must be technically savvy and have the power to reject item additions based on technical and aesthetical grounds. These 2 people are simply the doers, without any balance power. Whenever 1 becomes inactive, the remaining one can teach a new one.

I suggest a self governing comitee of 3 standing players and 3 backups.

It would work like this:

(Suggestion for a charter)

1. All members are on Election every 6 months.  (to keep people motivated enough, but still stable and long enough to get things done)
2. Any member can Veto a balance or equipment change. (To make sure the changes are small and conservative)
3. If anyone becomes inactive, the backup will take his/hers place, or if backup is unavailable, there will be a new election.
4. Any changes are publicized every 1st of each month, and implemented 1 month later. (Months warning before any change)
5. At all time, at least 1 member should belong to NA and 1 member to EU. (Different metagame) There cannot be more than 1 member from a single clan.
6. The committee should strive to have good communications with the players. (Perhaps have a sub forum)
7. The goal of the committee is to make cRPG more fair, better, more alive, and to relieve devs of workload.

Asking devs as much as players here, what do you think? Bring in your ideas and additions. Anyone schooled in making charters here? :)
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Paul on February 28, 2013, 10:45:55 am
That's already how it works. Items and stat changes have been in the pipe for a long time. The simple bottleneck is waiting for patch.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Matey on February 28, 2013, 10:46:10 am
just put Saul in charge of item balance, problem solved.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Tydeus on February 28, 2013, 12:27:58 pm
1, 3 and 4 appear to be the only ones that aren't currently being done, and I'm not really sure that #3 would even speed the current process up at all. That's not to say of course, that I don't like the idea, it's just that I don't really see where item balance falls into this other than "no patch".

just put Saul in charge of item balance, problem solved.
Admittedly, as much as I like saul's ideas, they're certainly a bit extreme. Also, what Urist said. From my understanding, having a planned patch date would itself provide more motivation for devs. The issue, is that none of us really understand just how time consuming full item patches are. Judging from past experiences, it would seem like it's a day long event for chadz, if not longer depending on any problems that arise.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 28, 2013, 12:31:54 pm
Sounds a little... complicated...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Grumbs on February 28, 2013, 12:36:30 pm
Veto for any member seems a bit ott.

The more time the devs spend on cRPG though the less likely it will be that we ever see anything playable from their next project. So openning the development up to different guys who aren't involved in MBG could be a good idea.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Thomek on February 28, 2013, 01:46:27 pm
Well the reason to make it self-governing is for stability. One or two people may become inactive or just plain stale, and this is often the reason for clans dying. I don't see why it's really different in this case.

Members may come and go, but the organization keeps working.

Also I think this would involve the whole community in a different way than today.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Riddaren on February 28, 2013, 09:15:30 pm
It is a fact that the majority of the community embraces melee players fighting on foot.
Ranged and mounted players, even the very best, are not given as much respect. Even if they are nice persons.

I don't see how a commitee made up of melee players fighting on foot would help the balancing of the game.
There needs to be class limitations. We need players from all classes.

A good class mixture would be something like this:
(With players of different subclasses within each class)

Melee

Melee infantry
4 Polearm infantry
4 One handed infantry
4 Two handed infantry

Melee cavalry
4 1H cavalry
4 Lancers
1 2H cav


Ranged

Ranged footmen
3 Archers
3 Crossbowmen
3 Throwers

Ranged cavalry
2 Horse archers
2 Horse crossbowmen
1 Thrower cav


To candidate you should be:
- respectful towards other classes and polite in general
- good with several classes and not just one
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 28, 2013, 09:27:29 pm
Democracy isn't suited for this community, I mean let's be real, this isn't a real community, the people who want balance and fairness here are seriously in the minority.

This is how a democracy could turn out:

The biggest clans pick their candidates, have all their members vote for them, have other clans vote for them in exchange for promising to buff what they mainly play, all sorts of deals are made in order to gain power and not in order to balance.

Candidates are in general picked class wise, let's say there are maybe a candidate from each class who got the vast majority of his classes support, then those candidates join together, agree to work as one and buff everyone who votes for them, so if for example cav and 2h join together then everyone else would glance, and if everyone joined against 2h (everyone else hates them) then 2h would probably get nerfed slightly more than they need to be.


And Riddaren your suggestion got major flaws as well.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Tydeus on March 01, 2013, 01:45:59 am
Democracy isn't suited for this community
To be honest, democracy isn't really suited for any video game. They're elitist by nature, though that's not to say it has to cater to a specific group, even they do generally cater to either casual or "hardcore"(I really hate this word) audiences.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 01, 2013, 05:42:22 am
(click to show/hide)


The "teaching" thing mentioned sound rather interesting, and I think this could be a nice idea, just unfeasible given our limited community.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: rufio on March 01, 2013, 08:45:54 am
this stuff could work if you were able to find the right people, wich i doubt  :lol:
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Ronin on March 01, 2013, 10:43:07 am
this stuff could work if you were able to find the right people, wich i doubt  :lol:
+1

The suggestion is good. Just don't put any 2handed heroes in charge.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Molly on March 01, 2013, 10:46:28 am
Overall a rather bad idea - will never evaaah work.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Joker86 on March 01, 2013, 07:51:24 pm
Although it's against the spirit of the time here in the west, I think democracy itself doesn't work as good as in theory, in any case.

For having democracy actually work you need to have the "demos" be educated, resonable and unbiased. Just enter a quarter of your city where the appartments are... not so expensive... and take a look around. Most of them above the age of 18 are allowed to vote. Do you think they will do this with the ideas of democracy, social equality of whatever in mind? Or won't they just vote for that one who is most charismatic or makes the promises which suit them best?

In the cRPG community you have a similar problem. Most players don't even get how balance works ("don't make all classes balanced, they need different stregthes and weaknesses", wtf?), and the name "player" automatically indicates that they are in the danger of being biased. Next to this we have a lot of clans which means we have different groups of interest within the community. I think it will be really difficult to establish a system which takes care of all those issues.

I prefer having an item team which has as much distance to the game as possible, with a certain plan in mind, and if they need to get some info regarding questions in the area of the skill ceiling, then they should ask the corresponding top players for that information and balance accordingly.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Phew on March 01, 2013, 09:23:57 pm
Or solicit community feedback on an equation for a singular item fitness parameter, apply it uniformly to all items without incorporating any human bias, and change the coefficients based on how the community responds to the results (i.e. if the item fitness equation make Cudgel insanely OP, then increase the fitness coefficient for blunt damage or knockdown or whatever).

But the devs don't like this idea, so oh well. "Balance until it feels right" is what we get, even if it yields such turds as the Falchion.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Thomek on March 01, 2013, 09:55:05 pm
It won't be direct democracy. It will be a committee where all members have VETO.

That should make sure that no unfair decisions will be made, (and also fewer and more conservative decisions)

But that is still better than NO decisions being made. After a good long period without balance patches, cRPG metagame becomes stale. Right now we have a rather boring influx of xbows i.ex. *imo

The majority of players care about more than themselves. They too realize that the game is not just their own playground, but that the balancers decisions will affect the whole game, not the least keeping it interesting for new players. (Targets)

Perhaps I'm naive, but I could see the community selecting members such as Tydeus or others that have a clue about game mechanics. I'm pretty sure we can find three of them out there. If the community selects one, or even two complete retards, the one sane community member will make sure they can't really hurt the game.

In any case, I'm sure the devs would have the last word in case extreme decisions would be made.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Joker86 on March 01, 2013, 09:57:27 pm
Or solicit community feedback on an equation for a singular item fitness parameter, apply it uniformly to all items without incorporating any human bias, and change the coefficients based on how the community responds to the results (i.e. if the item fitness equation make Cudgel insanely OP, then increase the fitness coefficient for blunt damage or knockdown or whatever).

But the devs don't like this idea, so oh well. "Balance until it feels right" is what we get, even if it yields such turds as the Falchion.

There are way too many factors as that you could balance items properly only by fitness. It will already fail if you consider that you'd have to calculate each item value with the item combination which is to be expected on the servers. Pikes are not that useful if the enemy has no cavalry, but on the other hand cavalry is plain useless if the enemy team consists only of pikemen. It's not like you can calculate this.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Phew on March 01, 2013, 10:11:11 pm
There are way too many factors as that you could balance items properly only by fitness. It will already fail if you consider that you'd have to calculate each item value with the item combination which is to be expected on the servers. Pikes are not that useful if the enemy has no cavalry, but on the other hand cavalry is plain useless if the enemy team consists only of pikemen. It's not like you can calculate this.

Everything can be parameterized, especially things in a video game that are already parameterized into 1s and 0s anyway. You just have to make sure the weighting for the coefficients is based on some rational basis, and everything will work itself out.

For instance; say server statistics show that cavalry make up 20% of the server population, on average. Thus, assign horse-rearing weapons a 20% "bonus" to their fitness parameter, as a starting point. Then tweak later based on how the community responds.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Tydeus on March 02, 2013, 02:25:34 am
But that is still better than NO decisions being made. After a good long period without balance patches, cRPG metagame becomes stale. Right now we have a rather boring influx of xbows

Recently I helped Urist extensively with multiple formulas, one of which, the turn speed formula, has recently been implemented on beta test servers. I can't say what the status is on the other two, but it's not because the balance team isn't doing anything. Okin may be inactive, at least in irc, but Shik, Urist and Fasader are still active(not sure as to the extent of Fasader's activity though).

Everything can be parameterized, especially things in a video game that are already parameterized into 1s and 0s anyway. You just have to make sure the weighting for the coefficients is based on some rational basis, and everything will work itself out.

For instance; say server statistics show that cavalry make up 20% of the server population, on average. Thus, assign horse-rearing weapons a 20% "bonus" to their fitness parameter, as a starting point. Then tweak later based on how the community responds.
Again, one of the reason this is shit for games, or at least this one, is you can't account for metagame changes. Sometimes Fallen shows up in force with 20 archers, sometimes there are only a couple of archers. How are you supposed to balance ranged for when there are lots, and when there are few? You'd have to have a dynamic system setup that changes game mechanics each round, and that will never happen.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Rumblood on March 02, 2013, 04:56:35 am
Again, one of the reason this is shit for games, or at least this one, is you can't account for metagame changes. Sometimes Fallen shows up in force with 20 archers, sometimes there are only a couple of archers. How are you supposed to balance ranged for when there are lots, and when there are few? You'd have to have a dynamic system setup that changes game mechanics each round, and that will never happen.

Class balance with a greater weight over banner balance has been proposed and requested for some time now.
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Tydeus on March 02, 2013, 05:30:23 am
Class balance with a greater weight over banner balance has been proposed and requested for some time now.
That is just a coincidence where the chosen example happened to be just a "class", not a weapon or armor type. What if I had used heavy cavalry, as opposed to light, instead of archers?
Title: Re: Democracy now! Set up balance and equipment committee by players, for players.
Post by: Phew on March 02, 2013, 03:51:24 pm
My suggestion for weapon fitness balance is aimed for at infantry melee, although "couchable", "usable on horseback", etc should result in a fitness bonus just like knockdown or crushthrough or whatever. I always use the Falchion as an example, because it has the most sh!t stats of any weapon in the game; a systematic item fitness approach never would have allowed this sword to be so terrible. Similarly, items like Longsword definitely didn't need the buff they got in the last patch, since it was already an insane weapon.