cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Mr Dinkywinky on February 19, 2013, 10:14:14 pm

Title: The Rapier Build
Post by: Mr Dinkywinky on February 19, 2013, 10:14:14 pm

Ok so Ive been playing around with some builds I could come up with. I was inspired to try this from Ricard`s set in Dark Souls. It has very little health but is very fast (and annoying to your opponent). My build is,

Strength 18
Agility 22

One handed 163
Two Handed 6

Weapon Master 7
Athletics 7
Iron Flesh 4
Shield 5

If you have any comments/improvements let me know its a very flexible build and Ive been changing it around quite often, this is just the latest version.

For my equipment I use,

Side Sword
2 Buckler Shields

Chapel de fer with padded coif
Heavy Aketon
Green and Purple Hose

And that`s it! My strategy for this is to dodge the enemy attacks and jump in with a quick thrust than jump back, the buckler is a safety net and I try to use it quite rarely as it breaks very often. The important thing is to not get hit as your armoury might take a hit if your lucky. That` for checking it out if you have any comments/improvements to this let me know!


 

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Osiris on February 19, 2013, 10:20:52 pm

no powerstrike?

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Vodner on February 19, 2013, 10:21:40 pm

Always max out your powerstrike with a melee build. 0 powerstrike isn't going to hurt armored opponents most of the time. Also, 22 agility doesn't really get you anything that you can't get with 21.

If you want a level 30, 8 skill conversion 1h/shield build, then you have to sacrifice either WM or IF (or some of each). If you want both, then you need to either do a 2 conversion build, or you need to level past 30.

Also, carrying two shields severely gimps your movement speed. The penalty is far greater than double the penalty of a single shield.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Teeth on February 19, 2013, 10:26:51 pm

Don't 2 bucklers get you the dreadful speed penalty that having a shield on your back as well as one in your hand gives you normally?

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Penitent on February 19, 2013, 10:27:57 pm

Yeah, you need powerstrike.  Otherwise you will float like a butterfly and sting like a butterfly.

Also, as previously mentioned, make sure your str and agility are in multiples of 3.  22 agi is a waste of a point. 

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Nasha on February 19, 2013, 10:29:29 pm

I would always have powerstrike over ironflesh in a shield build. Would this not be better:

(click to show/hide)

Level: 30

Strength: 18
Agility: 21

Power Strike: 4
Shield: 5
Athletics: 7
Weapon Master: 7

One Handed: 165

Or you could try - 15/21

Level: 30

Strength: 15
Agility: 21

Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 5
Athletics: 7
Weapon Master: 7

One Handed: 165

Another variation of this build would be to take 2 points from Ironflesh and put them into Shield, you'd have slightly less HP but your shield would be stronger.

I would also recommend using a blunt or pierce damage weapon instead of a cut damage weapon with a low strength/powerstrike build :D

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Vodner on February 19, 2013, 10:32:53 pm

Quote

Strength: 18
Agility: 21

Power Strike: 4
Shield: 5
Athletics: 7
Weapon Master: 7

He may as well go 12/27 or 12/24 rather than this. Or go with the 15/21 build you posted, which is solid.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Tibe on February 19, 2013, 10:33:54 pm

I would recommend going IF 0 and Shield 3. With shield 3 you can use the "Round Steel Buckler" and agibuilders cant really stick points into IF to be competitive trust me. Also since you said you want to rarely use the buckler and getting shield 3 maximum is the perfect way to go. IF is pointless if you going for such weak defence providing armor as "heavy aketon". IF is mainly for heavy armor types. Try to put most of the remaining skillpoints into PowerStrike. Without Powerstrike atleast 5, you wont really kill anyone with 1h. Even with PS 5 you still mainly rely on speedbonus and even than its not as competitive and useful as you might think.

Good luck!

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Mr Dinkywinky on February 19, 2013, 10:34:42 pm

Thanks for the replies, yeah Ive got 21 agi not 22 sorry must have been a typo. I didnt know about the shield penalty thx for pointing that out! The whole point of this build is to use the buckler thrusting combo, at first I played it like a "typical" sword and shield and it was terrible however when i started to dodge attacks and go for quick stabs I took armoured opponents quite low.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Mr Dinkywinky on February 19, 2013, 10:36:41 pm

Thanks yeah Ive noticed now if is useless on a previous version of this build I had 8 ath 8 wm no if 3 shield and umm something else. it was crazy with 26 agi and 11 str!

EDIT- updated build looks strong I wonder what itll be like ingame?

Strength - 18
Agility - 21

WM -  7
Athletics - 7
Shield - 3
PS - 6

Hits harder but less durable. Im also thinking of swapping the Side sword to a Long espada. Also picked up a sneaky rondel dagger muahhaha!

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Tibe on February 19, 2013, 11:06:04 pm

Looks good to meh. If you want moar speed go for 15/24 and ath 8. But ofcourse than the punch will be smaller.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 19, 2013, 11:26:46 pm

Depends who you're trying to rapier.  For kids all you really need is some candy, for adults you probably need some rohypnol

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Mr Dinkywinky on February 19, 2013, 11:32:52 pm

I think kids have been taught enough stranger danger and not fall for the old candy trick ;)

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 20, 2013, 08:13:28 pm

I would recommend dropping some WM for shield skill. Get at least 5. Try the (regular, not round) steel buckler. Both bucklers really need high shield skill to shine. They will take a lot more hits before breaking and start to "catch" projectiles that would before have just hit you.

High athletics and shield, defensive play, and practice with your weapon are most important if you are playing a swashbuckler/rapier duelist type build. Give this a try and see how you like it:

15 STR
24 AGI
5 Power Strike
8 Athletics
8 Shield
2 Weapon Master or Iron Flesh
If you choose WM you will have 125 wpf. With IF, it drops to 114. Of the 2, I'd take 125 speed any day. You will die quickly if you get hit no matter what.

I am almost level 32, and my build is 18/24 1H and shield. If you want to practice and get tips on how to move and swing in battle, I wouldn't mind fighting you on the duel server.

One last tip: What armor do you wear? Anything heavier than about 20 total equipment weight is going to slow your footwork down enough that high agility and athletics is a wasted investment. Definitely carry only one shield.

edit: oh it says your equipment right there. try the long espada eslavona if you like the side sword. Or the scottish sword.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Jarlek on February 20, 2013, 08:46:29 pm

+1 to withcraft. You really don't want to be using a buckler with 3 shield skill. Shieldskill is a skill that does magic. Have to little of it and you won't get anything from it, have enough and it will do stuff not physically possible.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Mr Dinkywinky on February 21, 2013, 07:33:58 pm

Ive tried this with a really high shield skill, and with really low and to be honest i prefer to put my points into more speed and maneuverability than defence. I guess its just me, i quite often put my buckler away for extra speed in duels (as I only use this in duels, since it is a pure rapier duelist build) which lets me get cheeky stabs in :). As such I d`ont really feel the need for a high durability shield because as I said above you cant play this build in the "conventional" way. 

Wichcraft I would be happy to duel with you, Im usually on eu any eu duel server.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: TurmoilTom on February 21, 2013, 08:12:55 pm

A nice build for thrusting one-handed swords is the Matey_BRD build.

(click to show/hide)

12 STR / 24 AGI

1 IF
4 PS
8 SHD, ATH, WM

172 1h WPF

The nice thing about this build is that if you hit level 31 and decide not to retire you can max out your ironflesh and go from there.

---

Also, if you prioritize speed and maneuverability over defence, another option is to copy my build.

(click to show/hide)

Level 30: 12 STR / 27 AGI

4 PS
9 ATH, WM

180 1h WPF

---

Level 35: 12 STR / 33 AGI

4 PS
11 ATH, WM

One leftover skill point

200 1h WPF

The thing I really like about my build (which I'm still working on, by the way) is that all of the extra shield weight that most one-handers have to put up with isn't there for me. Carrying only a short, light one-hander and light armor with high athletics turns you into a rocket.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Bifi on February 21, 2013, 08:31:45 pm

In my opinion high WM does not pay off.
Here's my Mr_Turtle build:

(click to show/hide)

Level 32: 12 STR / 33 AGI
4 PS
11 ATH,
1 WM
1 IF
120 1h WPF

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: oprah_winfrey on February 21, 2013, 08:43:39 pm

Quote from: TurmoilTom on February 21, 2013, 08:12:55 pm

A nice build for thrusting one-handed swords is the Matey_BRD build.

(click to show/hide)

12 STR / 24 AGI

1 IF
4 PS
8 SHD, ATH, WM

172 1h WPF

The nice thing about this build is that if you hit level 31 and decide not to retire you can max out your ironflesh and go from there.

---

Also, if you prioritize speed and maneuverability over defence, another option is to copy my build.

(click to show/hide)

Level 30: 12 STR / 27 AGI

4 PS
9 ATH, WM

180 1h WPF

---

Level 35: 12 STR / 33 AGI

4 PS
11 ATH, WM

One leftover skill point

200 1h WPF

The thing I really like about my build (which I'm still working on, by the way) is that all of the extra shield weight that most one-handers have to put up with isn't there for me. Carrying only a short, light one-hander and light armor with high athletics turns you into a rocket.

The real question is, where are you going to put that one spare point of wpf?

Also, how far are you along now?

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Mr Dinkywinky on February 21, 2013, 08:46:18 pm

Oprah I am honoured.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: oprah_winfrey on February 21, 2013, 08:47:18 pm

Quote from: Mr Dinkywinky on February 21, 2013, 08:46:18 pm

Oprah I am honoured.

If you think so now...look under your chair.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: TurmoilTom on February 21, 2013, 09:10:41 pm

Quote from: oprah_winfrey on February 21, 2013, 08:43:39 pm

The real question is, where are you going to put that one spare point of wpf?

Also, how far are you along now?

Still quite a ways off. I want to max out my gen exp bonus first, so I have to finish this gen and then I'll get into it. Also, I'm going to do a 12/27 swashbuckler this gen (so far only level 19, gen 15) to get a hang of it and fill out any flaws I find for the final product based on my experience with it, but it should be fine given the amount of time I've put into my STF for that build.

Quote from: Bifi on February 21, 2013, 08:31:45 pm

In my opinion high WM does not pay off.
Here's my Mr_Turtle build:

(click to show/hide)

Level 32: 12 STR / 33 AGI
4 PS
11 ATH,
1 WM
1 IF
120 1h WPF

It pays off if you're an agility build or have already gotten a fair amount of power strike.

(click to show/hide)

The damage multiplier formula is (1 + 0.08PS)(0.85 + 0.0015WPF)

With 4 PS and my planned 200 WPF I'll have a damage multiplier of 1.518.

If I sacrifice as much WM as I need to push my PS to 5 I'll end up with 144 WPF with 4 WM. That gives a damage multiplier of 1.4924.

Unless I'm somehow misinformed or there have been heavy changes since I last looked into it high WM *is* worth it, at least if you're already going for an agility build.

Source for damage multiplier formula: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,168722.msg4090900.html#msg4090900

Granted, I could drop WM entirely and push ATH even further for more speed bonus, but at 11 ATH I think I'll already be fast enough, especially in light armor with a one-hander.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Bifi on February 21, 2013, 09:41:48 pm

Thanks for clarifying Tom, but the difference is minimal.
Given 50 damage after the speed damage calculation:
It will give you 77,9 damage after wpf, ps and strength (raw_damage +=strength/5.0) is taken into account with your build.
If you go for 5 PS and 144 WPF, you will get 77,62 damage.

For 100 damage, which is quite a lot I guess, it would be 153,8 (your build) and 152,24.

With 15 strength you gain 3 more health points and can use any 1 handed weapon.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 21, 2013, 09:51:50 pm

Quote from: Bifi on February 21, 2013, 09:41:48 pm

Thanks for clarifying Tom, but the difference is minimal.
Given 50 damage after the speed damage calculation:
It will give you 77,9 damage after wpf, ps and strength (raw_damage +=strength/5.0) is taken into account with your build.
If you go for 5 PS and 144 WPF, you will get 77,62 damage.

For 100 damage, which is quite a lot I guess, it would be 153,8 (your build) and 152,24.

With 15 strength you gain 3 more health points and can use any 1 handed weapon.

You're talking damage only, I think the speed difference in swinging a 1h weapon is quite noticeable from under 100 WPF to 120.  And 2h's make a big difference going from 111 to 140.  I'd prefer to have as much speed on my swing as possible.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Bifi on February 21, 2013, 10:08:50 pm

Taken from the game mechanic megathread

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Elmokki on January 07, 2012, 01:05:12 am

Melee swing speed
Weapon swing speed is affected by weapon speed rating and weapon profiency. Agility does not seem to have effect on swing speed. According to WaltF4's tests 100 wpf results in approximately ~6.5% faster swings.

Quote from: WaltF4

To put this in perspective, a level 30 character with 3 agility, no weapon master, and 110 polearm proficiency would attack ~5% slower than a level 30 character with 27 agility, 9 weapon master, and 180 polearm proficiency if both characters were to use a speed 94 polearm. The absolute difference in time per attack between these two characters would be ~0.06 seconds. This is significantly less than the 12% difference in attack speed one would expect if agility was providing the purported 0.5% reduction in attack speed per point and the difference of 70 proficiency was ignored.

For rough calculation of your actual attack speed you can try to approximate a swing timer for wpf 1 from WaltF4's graph below and multiplying that by (1 - wpf / 100 * 0.065).
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 

These numbers, however, are for a full swing from start to end. Actual combat in Mount & Blade involves hitting your enemy before the swing is completely finished, so all you can guesstimate from these really is comparable speed to other wpf-weapon setups.

(Source: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html, WaltF4)

The speed difference is hardly noticable and you get 120 wpf with only 1 WM at lvl 32

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 21, 2013, 10:22:02 pm

Thanks for pulling that up, maybe it's just in my head then (i'd only be getting maybe a 2.5% increase in speed).

But one other thing I didn't mention (which I don't think is any data on the specific formula), higher WPF lowers your upkeep costs (not like that has any real bearing on someone's char build though)

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: TurmoilTom on February 22, 2013, 01:05:21 am

Quote from: Bifi on February 21, 2013, 09:41:48 pm

Thanks for clarifying Tom, but the difference is minimal.

With 15 strength you gain 3 more health points and can use any 1 handed weapon.

I'll agree that it is a very minute difference, but I don't intend on using any of the higher tier one-handed weapons. I tend to use a Simple Sword, Winged Mace and Light One Handed Battle Axe normally and I've always been a fan of peasant weapons. Sometime this coming weekend I'll be looming up a one-handed Practice Sword.

Besides, if I went to 15 strength I wouldn't be able to reach 200 WPF. Can't have that, can I? :)

Quote from: Bifi on February 21, 2013, 10:08:50 pm

The speed difference is hardly noticable and you get 120 wpf with only 1 WM at lvl 32

Not gonna lie, swing speed doesn't even occur to me as something worth thinking about when I go over any of my build's WPF, heh.

Maybe the WPF rework that was promised back in August (and will likely come in 2024) will make it something worth considering.

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on February 21, 2013, 10:22:02 pm

But one other thing I didn't mention (which I don't think is any data on the specific formula), higher WPF lowers your upkeep costs (not like that has any real bearing on someone's char build though)

LOL WOW I totally forgot about that.

With all the peasant looms I'll be using I'll be raking in cash like nobody's business.  8-) 8-) 8-)

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Tindel on March 21, 2013, 11:44:38 am

Weapon speed and wpf might not make a huge impact on swingspeed,  but it sure as hell helps blocking and feinting and in general moving around your weapon.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 21, 2013, 02:00:27 pm

Quote from: Tindel on March 21, 2013, 11:44:38 am

Weapon speed and wpf might not make a huge impact on swingspeed,  but it sure as hell helps blocking and feinting and in general moving around your weapon.

Weapon speed and wpf do not effect blocking at all. A peasant with a wooden stick and 1 wpf has the same blocking capabilities as any other build in the game.

Title: Re: The Rapier Build
Post by: Tindel on March 25, 2013, 06:39:37 am

Quote from: oprah_winfrey on March 21, 2013, 02:00:27 pm

Weapon speed and wpf do not effect blocking at all. A peasant with a wooden stick and 1 wpf has the same blocking capabilities as any other build in the game.

Get a weapon with 100speed or so, now get a weapon with 90speed or similar.

Fight a guy using a 100speed weapon, alternating between those two weapons. You will notice a huge difference when it comes to blocking feinting and getting off attacks.

Sure sure if you just stand and block it doesnt matter at all, but try to DO something and you will see what i mean.

With 100+ 2h wpf a longsword can go from attacking to a held blow and back to blocking without a problem against a longsword user.
Try doing that same manouver with a danish greatsword and you will not have time to block.

Weapon speed and wpf matters alot