cRPG
cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Commodore_Axephante on February 13, 2013, 04:56:41 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro4yhp9L6Ok
I've seen people speak to this briefly, but I wanted a more specific conversation about low riding skill - is there such a thing as "light cav", as in, players who just dip into a little riding in order to have versatility on the battlefield, without fully committing their build to such horseplay? (see what I did there?)
My gen 1 Naked Hero is already a dedicated 2h with a tiny amount of throwing (4pt, 57wpf) which some people said was a useless investment, but I've already found that about 10% of my kills are thanks to my heavy throwing axes, and those kills are always timely/situational. So, while currently at lvl 28, I'm considering trying out a similar level of investment into riding with my last 2-4 levels.
We're talking about getting 3 riding, and just 3 riding, so I can use a Rouncey (which I will, as stated in another thread, re-model to look like Dethklok's Thunderhorse).
I mean, 2h riding is already a well established class, and I've already got the 2h... so, with 3 riding, will I be newly dangerous, or just a shitty version of the real 2h cav, desperately scrambling to keep up in a world of thundering hooves?
Thanks for your input!
PS: I'm not expecting to use the afformentioned small-scale throwing skill from horseback, but if I did, I would need Horse Archery, right? Also what's the deal with the Palfrey? I don't think I've ever seen one in-game.
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Most people that play cRPG themselves are useless investments. They try out throwing for a day, can't master it in that time, and then regard it as useless. The longer you throw, the higher that % of kills you get with throwing gets. Trust.
The problem with low riding skill is how slow and hard to maneuver the horse will be. I can't tell you too much on riding as I am a terrible horseman myself, but from what I learned from Diggles and Blackwhite... (Both great 1h and 2h cav respectively) You generally want at least 5 riding. Most lancers take 6 for coursers or so, and loomed horses are supposedly very great investments for riding.
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As a cavalry myself, I can share my opinions to you.
As a cavalry, riding is the most useful skill. It is even more useful than powerstrike. Riding increases horse manuever and horse speed. The things that define the cavalry.
This does not mean of course you should get minimum str for gear, and maximize the riding. While "maximizing the riding as much as possible tactic" is extremely viable, builds like 21/15 are viable too.
As a cavalry, your horse is your main weapon. Which means cavalry is more based on keyboard usage, than a mouse usage. Also this means that, if you are going to be a cavalry I think you should loom your horse first. Besides, looming a horse gives many benefits statistically.
"light cav"
Light cavalry's usefulness comes from being fast. As the riding skill increases speed too, low riding does not mean light cavalry. It is the opposite. Good light cavalry need to have a high riding in my opinion. To be fast, and to quickly evade arrows of course. Lightly armored horses can just take 1-2 arrows. You need to play your cards carefully to not get hit by the enemy ranged, and riding will help you a lot in this.
Those being said, with 3 riding you can only be a mounted infantry. Not a horseman or a cavalry. You won't even be a shitty version of cav.
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Most people that play cRPG themselves are useless investments. They try out throwing for a day, can't master it in that time, and then regard it as useless. The longer you throw, the higher that % of kills you get with throwing gets. Trust.
The problem with low riding skill is how slow and hard to maneuver the horse will be. I can't tell you too much on riding as I am a terrible horseman myself, but from what I learned from Diggles and Blackwhite... (Both great 1h and 2h cav respectively) You generally want at least 5 riding. Most lancers take 6 for coursers or so, and loomed horses are supposedly very great investments for riding.
Yeah, 5 riding is pretty sweet. Not only are the horses that you can ride pretty good, but also it gives you the ability to scavenge everything except courser, arabian, and desert horse (lol) off the battlefield.
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I'd say go for it, yeah it won't be as efficient as a pure cav build but you will surely have fun with it and learn new thing! :)
Small hint if you want to stay alive more often... if your horse get very low on hp, try to move clear on the enemies and get down and go back to infantry. Otherwise your going to die before you get back up a lot of time.
Also since your playing naked stay away for ranged that are aware of you, if you are riding toward them you will probably get one shotted. :mrgreen:
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Does riding speed have nothing to do with gear weight?
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Riding speed has nothing to do with gear weight. You can be a tincan on a horse if you have the funds.
The higher the riding skill, the better the speed of riding and manouverability.
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3 riding can be a valuable investment as long as you aren't trying to ride around 1000's of meters from your infantry or you're going to get caught by someone who has faster riding and a lance and will kill your horse.
As long as you are situationally aware and stay within retreating distance of your infantry, you should be fine.
Mind me asking you to post your current build so we can critique it?
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Mind me asking you to post your current build so we can critique it?
Sure, if it would entertain you. Here's me at lvl 28. I was planning on just upping str and PA until 30 and 10, investing all extra skillpoints into stats so that this could happen sooner. However, I might change that plan slightly to get to 3 riding, as discussed.
With 57 wpf in throwing, I have literally the minimum amount to use / pick up heavy throwing axes and have no plans to invest further. My weapon of choice is the Great Axe.
The build:
Strength:25
Agility:12
Two Handed:127
Throwing:57
Weapon Master:4
Athletics:4
Power Strike:8
Power Throw:4
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You've already converted 8 skills to attributes, at level 30 you could be 27/12
But if you go 3 riding, you won't be able to go 9 power strike...
I'd probably skip on the riding, and just go 27/12, 9 PS, and 2 IF at your level 30 build, just my 2 cents
I'm guessing you were planning your build for level 31 (that's what I did on my first gen, not really thinking about the fact that I was going to retire at 31). If you aren't planning on retiring, then I'd suggest going for 27/13 at level 31, 9 PS, 3 riding (on top of your current build).
Then at 33 you would be able to have 15 agility and could conceivably go 5 riding (but i'd probably stick with 3 riding, and go 5 athletics, and 5 WM)
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You've already converted 8 skills to attributes, at level 30 you could be 27/12
But if you go 3 riding, you won't be able to go 9 power strike...
I'd probably skip on the riding, and just go 27/12, 9 PS, and 2 IF at your level 30 build, just my 2 cents
I'm guessing you were planning your build for level 31 (that's what I did on my first gen, not really thinking about the fact that I was going to retire at 31). If you aren't planning on retiring, then I'd suggest going for 27/13 at level 31, 9 PS, 3 riding (on top of your current build).
Then at 33 you would be able to have 15 agility and could conceivably go 5 riding (but i'd probably stick with 3 riding, and go 5 athletics, and 5 WM)
Believe it or not, naive creature that I am, I'm not planning on retiring. Maybe ever. We'll see. But yeah, your projections for lvl 31 are one of the options I've considered - the riding option that this thread is meant to explore.
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On a side note, with just 1 point in ride you can whistle for horses.
I can't count the number of times I've noticed a riderless horse behind my opponent, whistled for it so it will come and knock my opponent over. It's always hilarious and useful.
Honestly, 3 riding is fine if you stay away from ranged, lancers and aware infantry.
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Honestly, 3 riding is fine if you stay away from ranged, lancers and aware infantry.
So basically it's only fine if you don't encounter any enemies at all :D
Honestly, I think you overrate the effectiveness of riding. It's not like you can simply ride over the battlefield bumpslashing archers and infantry from the back. Good infantry player is always aware, with 3 riding you won't even be able to dodge when you charge someone from behind and he suddenly makes a sidestep hitting (and most probably killing) you and your horse at once.
Riding a horse is more a "high risk - high reward" playstyle which often gets you hit or shot in the process, which seems to be not good for naked character who can't sustain hits. You'd want to have full control over your character, and with 3 riding you'd have not much of it.
just IMO. :)
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So basically it's only fine if you don't encounter any enemies at all :D
Honestly, I think you overrate the effectiveness of riding. It's not like you can simply ride over the battlefield bumpslashing archers and infantry from the back. Good infantry player is always aware, with 3 riding you won't even be able to dodge when you charge someone from behind and he suddenly makes a sidestep hitting (and most probably killing) you and your horse at once.
Riding a horse is more a "high risk - high reward" playstyle which often gets you hit or shot in the process, which seems to be not good for naked character who can't sustain hits. You'd want to have full control over your character, and with 3 riding you'd have not much of it.
just IMO. :)
Even the best players can't watch 360 degrees at all times. He just needs to wait for someone to get distracted, ride up and hit them.
Also, even with 3 riding he's not going to be hurting for maneuverability. With 3 riding, he's going to be slow. (compared to other cav) The more your speed increases, the more it hurts your maneuverability. Even if you increased the maneuverability on a courser it's still going to turn like a bus when you go full speed.
Since he'll be so slow, he'll have a hell of a time sneaking up on anyone. That's why he'll have to go after people who are distracted first.
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3 riding is pretty much a waste of skill points.
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With 3 riding only, if an enemy cavalry catches you; you won't have a chance to retaliate. Believe me I tried doing horse archery with low riding, thinking it will be useful to enemy infantry. It was not useful at all. First encounter with an enemy lancer was my end, no matter how many times I dodged their lances I got being catched again and end up dead. And believe me, a cavalry will always be chasing you. Don't ever think that you'll be able to ride around the battlefield, find an unaware infantry and kill him from behind. You'll either get shot or get caught with enemy lancers, or a good infantry user will just kill you when you get near them. Because you'll be slow, easy to spot and be vulnerable that you won't be able to dodge at all.
If you plan on playing as a cavalry, 5 riding is essential so you can compete as a cavalry with other cavalry. With 3 riding only, you can do well in sieges using a saddle horse to quickly reach backdoor or going to the flanks to make a ninja charge (which is highly unlikely with 12 agi). You'll basically be a mounted sergeant. Riding a horse will be only useful for travelling purposes. You'll need to dismount in order to engage with enemy.
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If all of these anti-low-riding opinions are true, then it almost reveals a game-balance issue, I think. That 1-4 riding should be so absolutely useless seems...
...well, I suppose all of the other skills are useless at those levels too (besides maybe throwing).
I'm going to try this on a STF. I'll let everyone know how it goes. However, it seems most of you already have a good guess :)
EDIT: Oh, and to Ronin, a 12 agi character is certainly no ninja, but you would be surprised how fast 4 athletics and no armor weight will get you moving.
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Effective? No. But it does add a huge fun factor, which is always a plus for me.
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When I'm leveling and have 3 riding I do a lot better than trying to fight on foot. I honestly don't mind 3 riding on a rouncey, just have to play smart (as I suggested earlier). You shouldn't be riding off in the distance far away from your infantry. You should be staying close enough that you can retreat to your infantry if a cavalry on a courser tries to chase you down. You do that, and 3 riding will be just fine to use.
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When I'm leveling and have 3 riding I do a lot better than trying to fight on foot. I honestly don't mind 3 riding on a rouncey, just have to play smart (as I suggested earlier). You shouldn't be riding off in the distance far away from your infantry. You should be staying close enough that you can retreat to your infantry if a cavalry on a courser tries to chase you down. You do that, and 3 riding will be just fine to use.
Huseby, in a hostile world, you always tell me what I want to hear.
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I say get the 3 riding. It makes playing the game more fun when you're bored of being on foot for a little while. If you get used do it and play smart you'll to great with it.
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Side note while I've got all this experienced attention: 2h great axe - alright on horseback?
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Yes its' good. :D
49 cut + Str build + speed from the horse = You'll probably one hit a lot of people. 8-)
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When I'm leveling and have 3 riding I do a lot better than trying to fight on foot. I honestly don't mind 3 riding on a rouncey, just have to play smart (as I suggested earlier). You shouldn't be riding off in the distance far away from your infantry. You should be staying close enough that you can retreat to your infantry if a cavalry on a courser tries to chase you down. You do that, and 3 riding will be just fine to use.
This is true.
3 Riding can be fun, and you can do pretty good with it. The key is to play smart, and be cautious. Once you get on that horse, realize your speed, and become hypnotized by the thundering hooves....it is easy to get carried away and start zooming around the battlefield with bloodlust trying to trample everybody down. Then you die.
DO:
think ahead and play it safe
Flank enemy positions
support friendly infantry by bumping engaged enemies
DONT:
engage enemy cavalry
get shot by archers
charge enemies who are aware of you
get cocky cuz you're on a horse
Doing the above things can help you have fun and perhaps a bit of success with 3 riding! I recommend getting some armor LOL. When you are on horseback, the "speed bonus" applies to you as well. If you are at high speed and get hit, you will be 1-shot.
Palfrey's are like Rounceys, but worse in pretty much every way.
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I'm making myself a re-mesh of some armor so that I can sufficiently shows off my virtual gun-show and yet be a little less vulnerable (to archers, mostly), but there is the standing problem that I'm named NAKED_FANATIC, so I need to retire and rename myself something more appropriate, but it has taken me 2 months to get to lvl 28 due to frequent hospital stays so I'm reluctant to start all over...
And thanks to your impeccable taste in poetry, I don't really need the loom points...
so I'm conflicted!
But, I'm inspired. I think next gen (if I end up biting the bullet) I'm going to give minimal riding a try. Because, fuck min-maxing. I'm in this for the glory.
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With the bit of throwing, it might not be that bad to take on another horse every now and then. Who knows, you might enjoy it.
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Based on your build so far, I would suggest finishing your 27 strength and 9 powerstrike first. After that, branch out. If you do get 2 or 3 riding (sumpter horse is probably a better choice to remodel - you will see many rounceys but NO ONE else will have a sumpter horse, giving you that unique visual flair) then your horse is most useful as a taxi to whatever part of the map you want to fight at. Park it in a corner/stable/shed and go to fight. If you clear the area of enemies or see a massive wave of infantry charging you, hop back on the horse and pick a new fighting location.
Really, with 3 (or 2) riding all you can expect from your horse is to vroom around at the start of the round then dismount before enemy cavalry that is faster and more maneuverable skewers you. If not hidden very well, the parked horse will get slaughtered. Even your teamates will kill it as soon as they see it with no rider.
Not an optimal investment of points, but I have done stupid things like that for fun when I had extra points left over at level 30 (and planned to retire at 31).
BTW, 2 months for your first generation as someone just starting the game isn't that off. Unless you play all day or get into really big strategus battles, levels get really slow past level 25 or so.
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Just so you know, if you buy a horse for your skip the fun character, you can't transfer it back off that character and your STF will have it forever.
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ALRIGHT SCRUBS
GET YOUR HEAD IN THE GAME FOR ME ONE LAST TIME
I need to suck less. So, after messing with my low-throwing build, while I've had a lot of fun, I'm ready to give that up in the pursuit of greener pastures... so I submit to you, here, a lvl 31 2h cav build, presented both at lvl 30 and 31 so you can see how I would build it. This is constructed using the advice you've given me above, so if it sucks, it's your fault. Gear will focus on the Rouncer, I think, and light armor, because I'm cool like that. What do you think?
At level 30, with 2 skillpoints floating and 14 agi, ready to pop on 5 riding and WM next level:
Level: 30
Strength: 27
Agility: 14
Skill to attr: 12
Power Strike: 9
Riding: 4
Weapon Master: 4
Two Handed: 138
using cRPG NewGen calc (http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB)
At level 31, full stop, with his extra skillpoint put into Athletics just for fun:
Level: 31
Strength: 27
Agility: 15
Skill to attr: 12
Power Strike: 9
Athletics: 1
Riding: 5
Weapon Master: 5
Two Handed: 147
using cRPG NewGen calc (http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB)
What do you think? Will I be useless on foot? Will the world tremble before me?
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I don't like that at all...
I'd suggest this for level 30:
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 59
Skills to attributes: 8
Power Strike: 8
Athletics: 5
Riding: 5
Weapon Master: 5
And this at level 33:
Strength: 27
Agility: 15
Hit points: 66
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 2
Power Strike: 9
Athletics: 5
Riding: 5
Weapon Master: 5
All WPF into 2h
Alternatively you could go with 3 WM and the rest into IF, or 0 WM and all IF, but I prefer to use offensive skills (WM and WPF) rather than passive/defensive skills (IF). I prefer to go with the approach of "not getting hit" versus trying to tank hits.
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I don't like that at all...
I'd suggest this for level 30:
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 59
Skills to attributes: 8
Power Strike: 8
Athletics: 5
Riding: 5
Weapon Master: 5
And this at level 33:
Strength: 27
Agility: 15
Hit points: 66
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 2
Power Strike: 9
Athletics: 5
Riding: 5
Weapon Master: 5
All WPF into 2h
Alternatively you could go with 3 WM and the rest into IF, or 0 WM and all IF, but I prefer to use offensive skills (WM and WPF) rather than passive/defensive skills (IF). I prefer to go with the approach of "not getting hit" versus trying to tank hits.
So clearly what you're saying here is that I've under-invested in Athletics? Other than that we're on the same page, I'm just getting to it (-athletics) 2 levels quicker.
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Yes athletics is awesome and important for moving around the battle field. Also you don't want to be useless in strategus sieges (with 1 athletics you will be) then I'd suggest picking up athletics
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Yes athletics is awesome and important for moving around the battle field. Also you don't want to be useless in strategus sieges (with 1 athletics you will be) then I'd suggest picking up athletics
Alright man, you're my north star.
EDIT: By the way I think you merced in a NA battle last night and killed me a few times, no? Nice to meet you face to face :)
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Alright man, you're my north star.
EDIT: By the way I think you merced in a NA battle last night and killed me a few times, no? Nice to meet you face to face :)
At least once that I saw (can't always check who I'm killing though) was surprised to see you wearing armor. But I can understand that if you're a merc for someone else's army, you should use the equipment they have provided :)
Nice to meet you as well
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Don't understand why everyone was bashing 3 riding earlier in the thread. The rouncey is badass.
Also, back in KUTT siege days we would spawn on rounceys just to get to the castle walls 4 times faster than standard strength build infantry. Worked wonders.
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Don't understand why everyone was bashing 3 riding earlier in the thread. The rouncey is badass.
Also, back in KUTT siege days we would spawn on rounceys just to get to the castle walls 4 times faster than standard strength build infantry. Worked wonders.
Agreed, 3 riding is fine on the rouncey. You have to play different than 6 riding on a courser, but if you play within your skill set (and don't try to go head to head against destriers, coursers, and arabians in the middle of an open plain with no chance of getting back to your infantry) you'll be fine.
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If you really do want to switch to two handed cav, the build crazycracka posted is pretty good. You'd have to respec though, since your strength is already past 24.
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If you really do want to switch to two handed cav, the build crazycracka posted is pretty good. You'd have to respec though, since your strength is already past 24.
Already lvl 29, so this would be (sigh) next gen.
Gen 2 for life!
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The reason I don't like 3 riding is that 5 riding is just much, much better. You can use almost any horse (except 3), and with low riding you're tied to rouncey...
I fully support 24-15 and 27-15 builds CrazyCracka420 stated.
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Ive had fun in the past putting 3 riding points on my arbalest build. With a horse you can get up to some great, otherwise inaccessible roofs to shoot from...
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Ive had fun in the past putting 3 riding points on my arbalest build. With a horse you can get up to some great, otherwise inaccessible roofs to shoot from...
So you're that mother fucker :P
I remember trying to race to the same spot and stop you from getting to the rooftops in some maps