cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 24, 2013, 08:17:34 pm

Title: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 24, 2013, 08:17:34 pm
With bright banners of red, gold, blue, and semen white, the proud combined armies of Occitan and Hero Party displayed themselves before the Walls of New Rindyar. Among the men there was confident banter about how their magnificent army was going to rid these lands of the Frisian invaders and their Norse friends. After all, God Wills It.

Inside New Rindyar, the mood was much different. The display before the castle was one which struck awe into the hearts of all the defenders. How could they hope to stand before such military might? Such thoughts were in the heart of everyone of the brave defenders as they prepared to meet their end to the massed ladders and catapults of the Hero-Occitans.

One thing that neither side took into account though was one crucial fact. New Rindyar is a castle. Now the purpose of a castle is to be nigh-impregnable and to cost any army which dares to assault it grievous losses. So, "instead of direct assaults, besieging a castle was more cost-efficient and effective. However, depending on the castle, sieges could last from a few months to years. The siege of Donnington castle lasted from July 1644 to April 1646." A historical incident which proves this point is the fact that "in 1403, a force of 37 archers successfully defended Caernarfon Castle against two assaults by Owain Glyndŵr's allies during a long siege, demonstrating that a small force could be effective."

New Rindyar indeed proved the point that assaulting a castle is SUPPOSED to be extremely difficult. If an attacking army wants to take a castle by storm, it has to massively outweigh the defenders in both men and material as castle walls are DESIGNED to multiply the garrison force by factors of ten or more.

So, instead of a direct assault, most castles were taken by sieges which either starved the castle out (made it run out of gold) by cutting it off from reinforcement, or by forcing a field battle. In addition, attacking armies would generally ransack the countryside (take easier to assault fiefs) thus weakening a force in a castle to the point where it has to fight in the field or dissolve in its castle.

So to those of you who complain about how terrible the assault was, I agree with you. That was an utter bloodbath. However, I think that it definitely demonstrates the point that castles are supposed to be fortresses which are extremely hard to take. If you want to beat the army in the castle, you either need to lose thousands of troops doing it, or be like the best generals in history and force a decisive engagement in the field by bleeding the enemy out to the point where they can no longer sit in the castle. After all, a force can only do so much from behind its walls. It must come out eventually and it is up to an attacker to make them come out.

tl;dr: Castle assaults suck. However, I believe that they should continue to suck as the role of castles is to make an excellent defensive position. This is balanced because even if you have a good defense, you can only do so much from behind your walls while your lands (and thus wealth) are sacked and burned and your traders (again, wealth) are destroyed.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Butan on January 24, 2013, 09:51:53 pm
Can you post the battle result and/or how this castle was a bloodbath to the attackers?
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: oprah_winfrey on January 24, 2013, 09:57:07 pm
Quote from: Butan on January 24, 2013, 09:51:53 pm
Can you post the battle result and/or how this castle was a bloodbath to the attackers?

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=2091

Basically, it was archer heaven on the walls, the castle pretty small and one side is a cliff, and I think the back was too high to throw ladders on, so defense could rotate their forces to the front and right side. The terrain was pretty terrible, hard to throw ladders besides the fact that they were destroyed instantly. To top it off, the right side had a a stone roof in between the top and the ground, so defenders could sally out onto the ground without taking any fall damage.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: arowaine on January 24, 2013, 10:31:09 pm
Quote from: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 24, 2013, 08:17:34 pm
(click to show/hide)

interesting slaugther i welcome you into a open field battle on equal ground let see who will get slaugther. Stay behind your wall that is the best you can do.

Quote from: Butan on January 24, 2013, 09:51:53 pm
Can you post the battle result and/or how this castle was a bloodbath to the attackers?

they basicly did 2/1 kd as defender wish is pretty good...still they had transitional we were in medium mail(heraldic surcoat) and i can also say not prepared for a siege at all.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Kalam on January 24, 2013, 10:33:08 pm
Championship warfare, brethren. That's how real men settle wars.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: oprah_winfrey on January 24, 2013, 10:39:12 pm
Its seems pretty much impossible to starve a castle out. Not only is it possible the castle/people in the castle have enough gold to upkeep the castle for a while, but you also would need a lot of guys to block off the castle. Last but not least, I imagine most clans would have a hard time finding a group of players that could keep constant surveillance on the caste, so chances are the defenders can get a clanmate/ally to grad a bunch of horses and quick march past your sleeping guardmen to reinforce the city/castle.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 24, 2013, 10:45:28 pm
Quote from: arowaine on January 24, 2013, 10:31:09 pm
interesting slaugther i welcome you into a open field battle on equal ground let see who will get slaugther. Stay behind your wall that is the best you can do.

they basicly did 2/1 kd as defender wish is pretty good...still they had transitional we were in medium mail(heraldic surcoat) and i can also say not prepared for a siege at all.

Exactly what I am saying. The point of a castle is so that the defenders have a large advantage when attacked. However, by staying behind walls, the defender loses the initiative.

Note about New Rindyar in specific: Yes, it is extremely hard to throw ladders and the cliff makes things tough. But I would say that is the mark of a well build castle. Some of the best were built against cliffs, on top of hills, in order to make it more difficult for the attackers. (however, the buggy ladders should be fixed for sure).

Quote
(click to show/hide)

That is a good point, that's why I threw in the bit about destroying economy. It is basically impossible to truly siege (a feature that would be very nice and not too difficult to include), but it is indeed very possible to bypass a castle and attack other things (such as traders) and thus kill their ability to make war.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Visconti on January 24, 2013, 11:34:57 pm
The attackers would have had a much easier time if they had built more catapults, were the ones destroyed in the beginning the only construction sites the army had?
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: SHinOCk on January 25, 2013, 09:00:21 am
Quote from: Visconti on January 24, 2013, 11:34:57 pm
The attackers would have had a much easier time if they had built more catapults, were the ones destroyed in the beginning the only construction sites the army had?

We had enough materials for 5 catapults, we just failed miserably at defending them against that lone footman that kept coming for them lol. We also wasted time trying to find reasonable ground for one of them while the second shot about 5-6 times on a tower that seemed to be unbreakable.

1 Thing for sure is that you cant take the walls of that castle with ladders against a decent to good and full roster of mercs defending them.

Those in the clan who decided to attack that castle probably learned a great deal from that mistake and you can be sure you won't see us try again. There are other much more efficient ways to deal with a fortress like this one if we decided it was worth anything
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on January 25, 2013, 11:59:25 am
I tried to give you a field battle, but it ended up at 8am. Damn shame, we'll have to keep doing it if the attack is urgent. I request a 1am or 2am nighttime, you lose basically nothing. Sure, it's fine for you to not want to play at later than midnight, and it wouldn't be a problem if you could have 12 hour or more nighttimes. But, is it really better to have an 8am fight instead of a 12:30 fight?

Again, we'll be there in force because we're nerds with specific sleeping problems/circumstances that allow us to, and I think EU mercs are more likely to sign up for us. I don't want to screw you, I don't like to win through this shit. I want to have good fights at primetime, but once again, if the night-times are like that, we'll keep attacking people. Keep in mind we didn't attack this guy at like 5am or anything. It was around 12:45 if I remember right, which isn't even "nerd hours" yet for west-coast people, and still plenty of east coast people play at that time.

Please change your night-time hours to at least 1am 8hours or 2am 8hours; it would benefit you more than I.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Haboe on January 25, 2013, 12:37:59 pm
These are just 4 out of many battles that prove a castle can be a bitch to take over  :mrgreen:


http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1681
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1834
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1995
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=2024
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Garem on January 25, 2013, 06:48:16 pm
Quote from: arowaine on January 24, 2013, 10:31:09 pm
they basicly did 2/1 kd as defender wish is pretty good...still they had transitional we were in medium mail(heraldic surcoat) and i can also say not prepared for a siege at all.

Sweet jesus, Arrowaine... you guys are the biggest masochists ever. Medium armor in a castle siege assault?
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 25, 2013, 07:13:24 pm
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on January 25, 2013, 11:59:25 am
which isn't even "nerd hours" yet for west-coast people, and still plenty of east coast people play at that time.

I just don't get why everyone goes to bed so early... I mean it's like 10 PM for me and everyone complains about how tired they are! (well except for nerds like Sandy)
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 25, 2013, 08:24:59 pm
Quote from: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 24, 2013, 10:45:28 pm
Exactly what I am saying. The point of a castle is so that the defenders have a large advantage when attacked. However, by staying behind walls, the defender loses the initiative.

Note about New Rindyar in specific: Yes, it is extremely hard to throw ladders and the cliff makes things tough. But I would say that is the mark of a well build castle. Some of the best were built against cliffs, on top of hills, in order to make it more difficult for the attackers. (however, the buggy ladders should be fixed for sure).

That is a good point, that's why I threw in the bit about destroying economy. It is basically impossible to truly siege (a feature that would be very nice and not too difficult to include), but it is indeed very possible to bypass a castle and attack other things (such as traders) and thus kill their ability to make war.

It wouldn't have been so bad if one corner of the front wall (where the cliffs aren't as bad, and the walls were lower) didn't have a ladder high above it which prevented us from throwing ladders below it to the walls.

That's a great strategy for anyone else defending castles in the future.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Turboflex on January 25, 2013, 09:23:41 pm
That was unintended, so we could access the tower above gate (which does not have internal stairs).

BUT we did used to do that on siege all the time when deployable ladders were in, defenders could throw up ladders as anti-ladder blockades in certain notorious shortcut locations.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Butan on January 25, 2013, 09:53:15 pm
Quote from: Turboflex on January 25, 2013, 09:23:41 pm
BUT we did used to do that on siege all the time when deployable ladders were in, defenders could throw up ladders as anti-ladder blockades in certain notorious shortcut locations.

Its not possible anymore ?
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 25, 2013, 10:33:52 pm
Quote from: Butan on January 25, 2013, 09:53:15 pm
Its not possible anymore ?

Public siege servers don't allow you to bring ladders any more
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Butan on January 25, 2013, 10:49:14 pm
Ah, though you meant it was forbidden to use anti-ladders tactics in strategus battles/sieges  :D
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Keshian on January 26, 2013, 12:16:09 am
Quote from: Garem on January 25, 2013, 06:48:16 pm
Sweet jesus, Arrowaine... you guys are the biggest masochists ever. Medium armor in a castle siege assault?

They had lordly heraldic mail and lordly gauntlets - it was still 50ish armor.  Its just they brought a bunch of swords (2handed heroes) to a bodkins (archers/xbowers) fight.  They only had 1 really good ranged who knew how to use walls and terrain to her advantage as attacker in a siege fight (Desire 30-2), the rest of their ranged seemed inexperienced being attackers on  siege and tended to just be the easiest targets for defending ranged, which made it really easy to shoot the guys climbing ladders because there was only 1 xbower suppressing defender's ranged, which had at least 10 archer and xbower heroes.
Its not like an open field fight where you can just bring a bunch of people with riding skill and give them champion destriers and have them run people over repeatedly for victory - you don't need heroes or have any real skill to do well, just outspend the enemy.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Lt_Anders on January 26, 2013, 12:47:47 am
I got bored that battle and went XBOW even though I'm not on my xbow char this gen. It's still easy as balls to use xbows(especially for someone who is used to using them, with or without prof) on decent sieges.

Considering that was more of a, lets walk info hellfire, it made ranged easy.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 26, 2013, 03:48:18 am
Quote from: Lt_Anders on January 26, 2013, 12:47:47 am
I got bored that battle and went XBOW even though I'm not on my xbow char this gen. It's still easy as balls to use xbows(especially for someone who is used to using them, with or without prof) on decent sieges.

Considering that was more of a, lets walk info hellfire, it made ranged easy.

Which again is the point of a castle. It allows soldiers with ranged weapons to fire down on the enemy while not having to worry about being run over by cav etc.

A little blurb (from Wikipedia, but I'm too lazy to find anything better) about an young crossbowman killing Richard the First.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Ramza on January 26, 2013, 04:00:00 am
The whole battle depended on getting through the walls. With whatever happened to our catapult (destroyed/bugged?), we were only left with one choice: ladders.

Here are some of my thoughts concerning this:

1. Getting people to spawn with ladders:
There has to be a large minority of the team to bring ladders. It took us a while to realize that only 3 people spawning with them would not be enough.

2. Placing the ladders:
It's all trial and error. Yes it's very difficult to get it right, and even if you do, it might be targeted by the defenders. Well you don't just say fuck it and call it a day. Keep trying and you'll eventually it right.

3. Replicating the good ladder:
So what's the solution? We could've had better communication amongst leaders to coordinate the ladder positions. I know this was briefly touched upon by Arowaine during the battles, but the message didn't get across. As a suggestion, have multiple battalions, once a good ladder has been placed, put a flag on where to stand and click. Further coordination could be made to place multiple ladders at once, resulting in the defending forces having to spread their forces around the walls. All throughout the match I was placing ladders memorizing a landmark/group of pixels on the terrain to put one. For some reason I wasn't able to place a flag down, not sure if it's an access given to certain people.

4. Climbing up:
Walking up ladders is much faster if you zig-zag up it instead of walking straight up, same with some stairs (it also makes you harder to hit with projectiles). Shielders should go first. Of course the first one is gonna die, might as well make him absorb as much arrows and maul swings as possible and break the defence line so the next person can jump over, and the next, and the next etc.

TL;DR Fucking ladders.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 26, 2013, 02:23:23 pm
Quote
One defender in particular amused the king greatly—a man standing on the walls, crossbow in one hand, the other clutching a frying pan which he had been using all day as a shield to beat off missiles

Oh god my sides.
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Uumdi on January 27, 2013, 04:12:25 am
Quote
beat off missiles

hahaha, ew
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 27, 2013, 07:08:47 am
Two attacker kills for every defender kill sounds about right, look at the Siege server with 30+ players on each side, there is a reason why the defender spawn takes so much longer then attacker.


I think the main problem is people for some odd reason expect Sieges in Strat to perform identical to normal fights, and don't want to throw several waves at a castle to win it over when really you should.


Some castles though are brutally designed and should be tweaked, to be fair... But seriously, what the hell is the point of a castle if the damned thing is not... Well... A castle that gives your troops an effective force multiplier?
Title: Re: The Slaughter of New Rindyar
Post by: Sir_Winston_Churchill on January 27, 2013, 11:41:16 pm
Quote from: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 26, 2013, 02:23:23 pm
One defender in particular amused the king greatly—a man standing on the walls, crossbow in one hand, the other clutching a frying pan which he had been using all day as a shield to beat off missiles

Oh god my sides.

We now have historical proof that frying pans could be used as shields. If someone changes the buckler to look like a frying pan (perhaps a +3 buckler in the heirloom pack), I will be forever in your debt.