cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on January 06, 2013, 12:57:41 am

Title: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Thomek on January 06, 2013, 12:57:41 am: (click to show/hide)
I think I have proposed this one before.. but I think it was before the market appeared.

Thus reflecting their popularity and counterbalancing their eventual OP-ness.

I'm not a communist. I don't believe that Paul the Teknokrat and Fasader the unbalancer can ever guess the perfect pricing of a weapon or piece of armor. They might come pretty close to fair play by doing weapon stat adjustments, but the actual value of a weapon or armor depends on the current and ever-changing metagame.

How does it work? A crude example: (Should average prices of the last 30 days)

- Let's pretend Danish Greatsword has fallen down to from 1mill average to 750. Upkeep of the weapon will fall down to a 3 quarters. DGS users have more money to put into armor.
- At the same time Longsword has suddenly surged in popularity and is now going for 1.5 up from 750. Longsword users pay more upkeep.

* Now.. a smart ass player has realised that having a LONG weapons is not so important because of the decline in DGS users and found the Long Iron Mace at 500k suddenly very viable. He has great success with it while paying pityfull upkeep. Until one day the metagame shifts so much the Long Iron Mace becomes highly sought after and the price surges up to 1mill. So does his upkeep. (or not, keep reading)

Many of the complaints against this idea were that upkeep becomes more unpredictable, but this can easily be rectified. What if your upkeep for a weapon gets locked at the moment of purchase?

What will probably happen with this idea in place, is that less sought after items become cheaper, and players will have an incentive to try new weapon and armor combos. Very heavy armor will probably become cheaper too as the consensus is that it's not really that good right?

And we will have fewer Kuyak clones.. As the perfect upkeep+performance hole might be shifted around.

For the record.. Ninjas like me would probably have to pay the most for this idea, but I don't mind..

Eventually, upkeep of items will be closer to their actual demand and thus have a price more true to their battlefield value. (And pretty things cost more too.. )
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on January 06, 2013, 03:07:46 am: And then people like me who use the laudio ( fuck knows its spelling, but it has no stab 1h sword) pay no upkeep at all :D
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: San on January 06, 2013, 04:24:53 am: How could the market price be more accurate than how often a certain item is used on the server? The staff has stats for the number of kills for each weapon type, so I doubt tracking gear will be hard to do, even if just approximating for unique users.

There isn't much variance on loom prices in general, except for times when a popular item has been nerfed or a rare item has been buffed. You could see loomed gear at a decent price because of rarity/look, and you won't see a loomed item any more expensive than the price of a loom point x 3 or less than the most expensive x2 most of the time.

Even so, I'm not certain what it tries to fix. From what I get from the OP, overused gear should cost more in upkeep. This contradicts most people's choices for good gear at a reasonable upkeep.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Kafein on January 06, 2013, 02:29:01 pm: I fear this might very well cause snowball effects that might alter diversity in a very very bad way.

At the moment loomed DGS are bloody cheap. Not because the weapon is bad, it is still one the best 2h and one of the best melee weapons in cRPG. It's cheap because everybody that wants one has one. In this case, reducing the upkeep according to the market value would make this weapon even better by reducing its upkeep. A better weapon would mean an increased price but also more people using LP to create loomed DGS, which would increase their number and reduce the price.

And since we can't possibly differentiate between the causes of low prices, may it be low demand (bad weapon) or high supply (good weapon), I don't think this suggestion can be applied as is.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on January 06, 2013, 02:55:22 pm: ^ what he said ^
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Thomek on January 06, 2013, 07:19:18 pm: I hate to say it, but I think you are right Kafein... :P

Perhaps then it should be based on popularity.. The point is anyhow to give weapons, armors, perhaps even bows, arrows and horses a price that reflects their effectiveness. A system to automatically balance gear according to current metagame.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on January 06, 2013, 10:54:01 pm: I think there's nothing wrong with the prices and upkeep currently.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Grumbs on January 07, 2013, 02:57:40 pm: Things being popular doesn't necessarily mean they're the best items. There will always be trend setters and their followers, just remember Chase with his build changes in the last year. It seemed whatever he happened to be using became super OP and needed a nerf.

People will always have a sense of whats "best", and people will copy that to try to achieve similar results. I don't even know why people ever had a thing for DGS, all the other great swords seem just as good or better in some ways. But if someone asks which 2 hander is best, they will say something or other and then people will copy that, and you have more on the server, and then people want it nerfed because its popular (so much be OP)

People will use stuff just because it looks good too. Encouraging diversity could be about simply improving the aesthetics of certain items. When you sheath a weapon on your back with a Heavy Kuyak it looks better than it clipping through metal, it looks like its in or behind fur.

I could go for some things becoming cheaper if they're unpopular though, but making things more expensive might not be that fair when people are just copying what they see people do well with.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Phew on January 10, 2013, 07:31:02 pm: I'd rather the devs creep the stats up on unpopular weapons until they gain popularity. For instance, 1h in particular has a bunch of lower-tier weapons that are just flat inferior to more expensive options, i.e. slower or weaker or shorter with no bonus elsewhere to compensate. I think cheaper weapons should be faster than they are, since peasants have low wpf.

For instance, the Falchion; 30 cut, no stab, 96 speed, 80 reach. Weak, slow, short. This weapon could be 103 speed, and it would still be a pretty lousy alternative to say a Liuyedao, but at least it would have something going for it.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Thomek on January 11, 2013, 12:19:38 am: It would anyway be a nice tool for the balancers to figure out if the performance of a weapon is more or less right.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Kafein on January 11, 2013, 01:54:40 pm: Quote from: Phew on January 10, 2013, 07:31:02 pm
I'd rather the devs creep the stats up on unpopular weapons until they gain popularity. For instance, 1h in particular has a bunch of lower-tier weapons that are just flat inferior to more expensive options, i.e. slower or weaker or shorter with no bonus elsewhere to compensate. I think cheaper weapons should be faster than they are, since peasants have low wpf.

For instance, the Falchion; 30 cut, no stab, 96 speed, 80 reach. Weak, slow, short. This weapon could be 103 speed, and it would still be a pretty lousy alternative to say a Liuyedao, but at least it would have something going for it.

I know this is just an example, but you do not want a 30 cut 103 speed weapon to exist.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Shaksie on January 11, 2013, 01:59:47 pm: Quote from: Kafein on January 11, 2013, 01:54:40 pm
I know this is just an example, but you do not want a 30 cut 103 speed weapon to exist.
Liuyedao is 31c 102 speed?
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Phew on January 11, 2013, 02:52:15 pm: Quote from: Shaksie on January 11, 2013, 01:59:47 pm
Liuyedao is 31c 102 speed?

I specifically used the Liuyedao as an example, because it is flat better than the Falchion in every stat. It seems like Falchion should be faster than the Liuyedao, since it is shorter and does less damage. There are several players that use +3 Liuyedaos (34 cut, 103 speed), and they are less likely to double-hit someone than your typical Miaodao user (96 speed), just because 1h animations aren't really set up for double hits, but 2h are.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Shaksie on January 11, 2013, 05:54:35 pm: Friend, I was talking to Kafein.
Quote from: Phew on January 11, 2013, 02:52:15 pm
1h animations aren't really set up for double hits, but 2h are
That is... not true.
I double hit very often and the 1h left swing is by far the best double swing animation.
I found the most effective double hitting build was when I was a 21/15 one hand thrower/shield hybrid.
I had barely over 110 wpf and I could double hit the majority of players (I do certain things that set up double hits, mindless double hitting doesn't work very often) where I used a +3 Niuweidao (I only chose it because of the extra weight and sex appeal).
I would extrapolate that since a lot of good players despise 2h (myself included, [not saying I am good, I just don't like 2h] I wish to rid myself of it as soon as possible), they move to 1h and double hitting is frowned upon so they may feel that their reputation will be tarnished should they double hit. It is also surprisingly hard to do it effectively and against certain players and if not done correctly it is very risky.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Phew on January 11, 2013, 07:08:21 pm: Even the spammiest Liu/Niu/Scimi players don't seem to be able to double hit very reliably, but servers are always loaded with Miaodao/Longsword/HBS/Katana wielders that hiltslash their way to the top of the scoreboard. I'm sure there are tricks to double-hit with a fast 1h, but it happens to me rarely enough that I'm not worried about peasant 1-handers getting a speed buff.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: San on January 11, 2013, 10:11:35 pm: You can't double hit easily with a 1h unless you're moving away from the opponent's swing or have an absurdly fast (103+) speed weapon, otherwise it's a mistake on your opponent's part or high ping.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Joker86 on January 14, 2013, 02:26:00 pm: Quote from: Thomek on January 06, 2013, 07:19:18 pm
Perhaps then it should be based on popularity.. The point is anyhow to give weapons, armors, perhaps even bows, arrows and horses a price that reflects their effectiveness. A system to automatically balance gear according to current metagame.

While I appreciate the attempt, I fear the idea will bring a lot of problems. I wrote a rather long post about various problem with such a dynamic system, with all the unfair aspects and so on, but I deleted it. (Rejoice!).

I think the basic problem can be described as following: prices don't balance weapons. Balance is completely unaffected by its price when swung, only when purchased or at the end of the round when all enemies are dead the price kicks in.

Your suggestion doesn't balance anything, it just influences the CHOICE of players in a bad way, speak: limits. I wouldn't want to get punished for using my favourite weapon, because other players decide the same way. It's not like I look what the others use and then decide that what most people use must be the best. I don't think "Oh! I must not copy the others!", I rather think "Fuck! All the others copy me!". People would not change the weapon they use, as it is the game element you "feel" the most. You will rather reduce your armor. Which is nothing beneficial, I would say, because I am for buffing armours, and a general armor reduction is not what I'd like to see.

And you completely forget the item variety itself. If you want to be pikeman there are only two viable weapons. If you want to be crushthrough infantry, there are three weapons. If you want to be two hand or one hand, there is a bazillion of items, and even if we agree that the low and mid tier items are not really a viable choice on long term, there are still usually 5-10 weapons to choose from. Now if we say that there should be 1/3 of the team infantry, 1/3 cavalry and 1/3 archers, we have 1/3 of all players who have to share:

light lance + lance + heavy lance + jousting lance...

rus bow + horn bow + long bow...

Danish greatsword, German greatword, Flamberge, Sword of War, Longsword, German Poleaxe, Poleaxe, Elegant Poleaxe, Great long axe, great long bardiche, Long espada eslavona, military pick, fighting pick, langes Messer.... etc. pp.

In short: the items diversity does NOT represent the intended class diversity.

So: you have my "no", Thomek.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Joker86 on January 14, 2013, 03:10:13 pm: Seperate post:

Quote from: Joker86 on January 10, 2012, 01:47:10 pm
My idea basically consists of rewarding players at the end of a round for playing a rare class on the server with some extra XP. The more of your class you have, the less XP you get.

It works like this:

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An XP pool is being created, and its size is depending on the amount of players on the server.

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This XP pool is divided into the different weapon proficiencies, according to the distribution the developers desire. My percentages are just an example.

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According to the amount of WPP (weapon proficiencies points) spent into the different proficiencies, players get budget points. (due to the non linear WPF gain hybrids would have an advantage if you used the WPF instead of WPP). You can get budget points in as many WPFs as you whish, of course.

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The budget points get added, and then they get compared to the percentage of the combined XP for their corresponding WPF. The more players use a certain weapon, the higher will be the amount of budget points for this weapon class.

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Now every budget point gets an XP value, which is calculated by the data above.

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Finally the players receive XP according to their WPF.

As you can see, our archer, who spent everything (= 100% of his WPP) into the archery WPF, gets only 300 XP, because there are so many other archers and thus there were a lot of budget points to distribute the XP to. Next to the fact that archers get only 12% of the combined XP anyway.

But our thrower/one handed hybrid gets a lot more, because he is using weapons that are rather uncommon on the server. In fact he is rewarded for adding variety. Thats why he gets more than seven times as much as the archer.

You can even extend this system to gold (mean that you can have better equipment if you have little or no fellow class players) or the breaking chance (same effect).

The advantage of this system is that overused classes are made less attractive without lowering their efficiency in battle.

And of course it would work equally well (or even better) if you did the calculation for each team seperatedly, instead of the entire server.

I hope my pictures will lead to some replies, as I spent almost an hour in MS Paint :lol:

____________________________________________

Note that my idea rewards instead of punishing, and that it i not affecting your effectivity at all, only the speed of your progress. You don't have to downgrade your armor or experience similar backhits.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Phew on January 15, 2013, 02:05:57 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on January 14, 2013, 03:10:13 pm
Note that my idea rewards instead of punishing, and that it i not affecting your effectivity at all, only the speed of your progress. You don't have to downgrade your armor or experience similar backhits.

Implement this, and be prepared for the influx or horse throwers (aka javalry). Which would be hilarious, because it is a truly awful class.
Title: Re: Make prices of weapons, armor a factor the latest market prices.
Post by: Joker86 on January 15, 2013, 03:40:42 pm: That's not the worst effect. If people want to farm XP to gain heirlooms faster, I think it is valid to have them play crappy or unpopular classes. That way their greed has a beneficial effect on the team, as they at least raise variety.