cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 03:03:54 am

Title: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 03:03:54 am

Hey, I know its been talked about a lot, and if I've heard correctly devs have been discussing what to do with weaponmaster + the wpf curve to give more incentive for the skill and for balanced builds.

Most likely they could take away the wpf gained on level up so that you are forced to pump a couple points into weaponmaster if you want to maintain your 100-120 wpf in a single weapon skill.


It'd be a fair decision, absolutely.  Several people were discussing how it'd really affect hybrid builds though, and not really make weaponmaster 'better', but would make strength builds 'worse'.  What I think might be nice is having ranks, much like the old Baldur's Gate games.

Rank 0 - Untrained - suffer a set penalty      (or the equivalent of 1 wpf now)

Rank 1 - Proficient - Negates basic penalty   (60  wpf)
Rank 2 - Specialized - Small bonus                (100  wpf)
Rank 3 - Master - moderate bonus                (120  wpf)
Rank 4 - High Master - larger bonus              (150  wpf
Rank 5 - Grand Master - even larger bonus   (170 current wpf)

It would be a simple system in practice, it would just take balancing.  Just an idea, but the ranks could cost 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, respectively, or perhaps set a plateu at 3.  You'd have 1 to spend at level 1, and then get another every 15 levels, so two more in any character's career.  Each rank of weaponmaster would give you 1, and perhaps another point for every 6 agility.  This would give agility a passive benefit, much like the +1 hp of strength. 

A balanced 18/18 build would get 3 + 3 + 6 = 12 points to spend, allowing him to get Rank 4 in one weapon skill, or rank 3 in 2 seperate weapon skills.  *On second thought, with the numbers I laid out, that's right about where it is now.  FML.  Maybe Rank 5 of weapon master starts giving you 2 weapon skill points - a small bonus to a 24/15 build who doesn't want to go 21/18 for the 6 agi multiple bonus, but doesn't want to go 27/12.*

This way weaponmaster is just as beneficial at rank 1 as it is at rank 7.  Right now, only pumping 2-3 weaponmaster isn't as significant as pumping 7 - but players pumping 7 aren't seeing enough benefit when they could spend those 7 points into the static benefit of ironflesh, that gives 2 hp every rank.


Just thoughts.  Don't scream at me.  I'm going out for coffee so I'm gonna edit this later and leave it as a shit post for you to tear apart.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: [Ant] on December 26, 2012, 03:22:44 am

I dont see why under the current system wpf cuts out at 199.

I think after a certain point each level of weapon master should give you the same bonus to wpf. Another issue is the free wpf this is the single most broken thing in cRPG. It should not be 111 it should at absolute most be 60-80. If you decide to roll a sumo wrestler build you should have to pay the price.

running 3 WM compared to 4 is a grand total of 8 wpf this is outright ridiculous.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on December 26, 2012, 03:48:30 am

I always like how it was in Native, that you needed weapon master to increase your proficiency any further.
Kinda sounds like what you are suggesting.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Malaclypse on December 26, 2012, 04:34:39 am

Quote from: Froto_the_Loc on December 26, 2012, 03:48:30 am

I always like how it was in Native, that you needed weapon master to increase your proficiency any further.
Kinda sounds like what you are suggesting.

Also, there were only two ways to gain prof: passively via agility, and through the use of arms. I always thought the first one would be a rad idea to even out Strength and Agility; Strength gives you the ability to use most weapons and all armor and gives a passive health bonus, Agility increases movement speed and gives passive WPP gain.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 05:00:06 am

Yeah, reading it again, my values are really bogus.  Had to cut it short because I had a summons to Dunkin Doughnuts.  111 bugs the shit out of me too.  Pure str should still get some wpf, in the roleplaying sense, from using the weapon repeatedly.


Honestly, it would be sweet to have to level it up through actual use of the weapon, but grinding is already enough, I'd imagine.  I did, however, use a shortened spear till level 15 this gen, and magically got 100 1h wpf all at once though hahah.


Passive wpf boost from agi, rather than level would be nice.  Probably a simple system to work with.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: San on December 26, 2012, 05:11:58 am

In this ranking system, 1 point for leveling (maybe even 2), points for agility, and max 3 for a rank seems good. A max rank of 5 or 6 seems nice to me, too. I don't think there needs to be more than 180-190 wpf. Extra WM would be for hybridization/ maybe give 2 points after level 5 in WM or so.

Str builds with no agility would get 60 wpf.
No WM builds would get up to 100 (except if very high agility)

It will take 12 points to rank 5. With 1 point from level up, it would take a 24 agi build and 7 WM. With 2 points from leveling, 21 agi and 7 WM. I guess there is leeway for rank 6.

EDIT: Would also change the ranks to 125 wpf from 120 and 175/180 from 170, to match what pure builds can get with WM and a high level.

It would be nice if WM could do more than just give wpp if it wants to keep 0 WM builds under 100, pures with high wpf above 160, and middle of the road/hybrids ~120-140, then wpf allotment could be more freely given to agility points or what have you. I made a thread about it affecting WM reduction of armor, but that left out lightly armored melee fighters.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Paul on December 26, 2012, 10:59:22 am

Current wpf gain is done like this afaik:

Code: [Select]

wpf_0 = 25
delta_wpf_WM = (20+10*WM)    #for increasing WM by one
delta_wpf_lvl = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 5           #for increasing lvl by one
with DIV being (Euclidean) integer division(5 DIV 2 = 2), ignoring the remainder
total_wpf= wpf_0 + sum(delta_wpf_WM) + sum(delta_wpf_lvl)


For total wpf gain over the whole career one can develop the following equation:

Code: [Select]

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + 5*lvl + max((lvl-5), 0) + max((lvl-10), 0) + max((lvl-15), 0) + max((lvl-20), 0) + max((lvl-25), 0) + max((lvl-30), 0) + max((lvl-35), 0) + ...

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + lvl*(5+((lvl-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((lvl-1)DIV5)*(((lvl-1)DIV5)+1)
(can't get my head around a better simplification for the lvl based wpf atm, sry)
example: level 26; WM=4 =>
total_wpf = 5*4*(5+4) + 25 + 26*(5+((26-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((26-1)DIV5)*(((26-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 26*(5+5) - 5/2*(5*(5+1))
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 260 - 75 = 180 + 210 = 390
We think about getting rid of the lvl based gain. Maybe totally, maybe not. Suggest new delta_wpf formulars.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Panos on December 26, 2012, 11:49:45 am

I don`t know, but I feel that an increase on wpf bonus will only increase the spam on the servers and decrease the actual skill..

spam > skill..

(click to show/hide)

2H class it is then!

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 02:43:12 pm

Quote from: Paul on December 26, 2012, 10:59:22 am

Current wpf gain is done like this afaik:

Code: [Select]

wpf_0 = 25
delta_wpf_WM = (20+10*WM)    #for increasing WM by one
delta_wpf_lvl = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 5           #for increasing lvl by one
with DIV being (Euclidean) integer division(5 DIV 2 = 2), ignoring the remainder
delta_wpf = wpf_0 + delta_wpf_WM + delta_wpf_lvl
For total wpf gain over the whole career one can develop the following equation:

Code: [Select]

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + 5*lvl + max((lvl-5), 0) + max((lvl-10), 0) + max((lvl-15), 0) + max((lvl-20), 0) + max((lvl-25), 0) + max((lvl-30), 0) + max((lvl-35), 0) + ...

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + lvl*(5+((lvl-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((lvl-1)DIV5)*(((lvl-1)DIV5)+1)
(can't get my head around a better simplification for the lvl based wpf atm, sry)
example: level 26; WM=4 =>
total_wpf = 5*4*(5+4) + 25 + 26*(5+((26-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((26-1)DIV5)*(((26-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 26*(5+5) - 5/2*(5*(5+1))
total_wpf = 180 + 25 + 260 - 75 = 180 + 210 = 390
We think about getting rid of the lvl based gain. Maybe totally, maybe not. Suggest new delta_wpf formulars.

That's just one part of the problem. Other is the way we spend those points. Imho, pure str builds (3AGI, 0 ATH/WM) should get 0 wpf to toy with. Those with 1 point in WM should get around 40w wpf, with 2 WM around 75 wpf and with 3 WM 100 wpf. If people want to have super high amount of HP points (having more than 90 HP combined with high armor rating is almost game breaking), they have to swing slower than they are doing now.

Further scaling should go to 175 wpf where should be cap (because there's a lot of people with 80 ping and higher and german players with high wpf have huge advantage over those players just because they live close to the server).

Now to the fun part. As someone who has been playing 18/18 hybrid build (100 wpf in 1H/poles/2H) last gen, I have to say that's the most fun I've ever had in cRPG. I truly don't understand why are you continuously nerfing those builds and promoting pure builds which are dull and boring and one of the reasons why there is less players these days. Is it because of Strategus balance?

Also, if you nerf str builds there will be more agi builds which are almost as lame. While STR builds crutch on plate and use Great mauls (only easier to use melee weapons currently are Glaive and Greatsword), AGI builds abuse S key like mad. You need to do something about backpedaling damage. My suggestion, if possible, is to make it glance a lot every time player execute attack while going backwards.

Give more love to balanced builds and make extreme builds less appealing. Change the way players perceive attributes and skills. Bring skills in focus, make attribute points less attractive. That is builds diversity, not number of builds made from combinations of STR, AGI, IF, PS and Athletics as dominant factors in average player's build.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Ujin on December 26, 2012, 03:42:11 pm

I'm an all -time hybrid player and recently retired to do a 21/18 build with 6 WM again. At lvl 33 (my end build) i'm supposed to have ~140 wpf in 1h and ~ 90 in polearms. Makes me a viable but not a totally op hybrid. I'd like it to stay that way if you bring changes to the wpf mechanics.
I get alot of wpf from leveling up though, should be the other way around. People who invest in WM should see the benefits. Just my two cents.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Panos on December 26, 2012, 03:57:27 pm

Quote from: Ujin on December 26, 2012, 03:42:11 pm

I'm an all -time hybrid player and recently retired to do a 21/18 build with 6 WM again. At lvl 33 (my end build) i'm supposed to have ~140 wpf in 1h and ~ 90 in polearms. Makes me a viable but not a totally op hybrid. I'd like it to stay that way if you bring changes to the wpf mechanics.
I get alot of wpf from leveling up though, should be the other way around. People who invest in WM should see the benefits. Just my two cents.

High WM means High Agility and high agility means endless spamming..

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 04:04:00 pm

Exactly, that's why I think high WM should be choice for hybrid builds. Not a way for people to reach over 200 wpf in single category or archery to get their pinpoint accuracy back.

As Ujin pointed out, 6 WM which is quite a lot of points spent, isn't enough for more than 125 wpf in both categories (which is around 100 when you take armor reduction into account). I think it should be enough for 3 x 125 wpf or 2 x 150.

AGI builds don't have that many weapons to choose from and I would like to see some weapons changed (Steel Pick for example), their str reqs raised. Light, fast but doing low damage; heavy, powerful but slow and doing high damage. Fast/slow in both ways (movement speed, weapon speed). Currently, there are some broken combinations that don't stick to this simple rule.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Ujin on December 26, 2012, 04:12:32 pm

Quote from: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 04:04:00 pm

I think it should be enough for 3 x 125 wpf or 2 x 150.

That's a bit too much imo. If someone goes for a pure build this amount of speed bonus + wpf is actually almost like the 2 -3 extra ps that they'd lose, especially for 2handers. I would say ~x2 130-135 for 6 wm is fine.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 26, 2012, 04:47:56 pm

2 simple changes -

1) Change level based wpf to agility based wpf and change DIV5 to DIV10
delta_wpf_agility = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 10           #for increasing lvl by one

2) Increase wpf_0 to 75 from 25
wpf_0 = 75

If my maths is right this means
total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 75 + lvl*(5+((lvl-1)DIV10)) - 5/2*((lvl-1)DIV10)*(((lvl-1)DIV10)+1)

Some basic builds
@ level 30, 3 Agility, 1WM = 120 total_wpf (currently 280)
@ level 30, 6 Agility, 2WM = 175 total_wpf (currently 320)
@ level 30, 12 Agility, 4WM = 322 total_wpf (currently 430)
@ level 30, 18 Agility, 6WM = 508 total_wpf (currently 580)
@ level 30, 24 Agility, 8WM = 748 total_wpf (currently 770)
@ level 30, 30 Agility, 10WM = 1020 total_wpf (currently 1000)
@ level 30, 36 Agility, 12WM = 1353 total_wpf (currently 1270)

As you can see low agility builds will suffer most, whilst only the stupidly high agility builds that can't use most armours or weapons will actually benefit (and then only slightly).  Meanwhile the mid agility builds will suffer slightly but when converted into actual wpf then the difference is negligible.  Shown below

12 Agi, 4WM
322 total_wpf = 123 actual_wpf
430 total_wpf = 138 actual_wpf

18 Agi, 6WM
508 total_wpf = 147 actual_wpf
580 total_wpf = 154 actual_wpf

24 Agi, 8WM
748 total_wpf = 170 actual_wpf
770 total_wpf = 172 actual_wpf

Personally I find these changes minimal and within reason since 12 Agility is still pretty low whilst 123wpf is enough.  My usual hybrid build is 18/21 with 7WM.  In the past this gave me 130/120 actual wpf whilst now it will give me 124/120 hybrid wpf.  I can live with that.

EDIT: Some other possible builds to get 280ish total_wpf (the current minimum for level 30). 
12 Agi, 3WM = 262 total_wpf
15 Agi, 3WM = 280 total_wpf
21 Agi, 2WM = 277 total_wpf
so there's still plenty of ways to get to the 115ish actual wpf which people have proved to be enough for cRPG builds

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 05:06:48 pm

Personally I believe the best solution to the wm/wpf issue would be flattening the curve so that a 10wm build could get 222 wpf, this'd overall speed up combat for all builds 'cept for 0wm ones, and they'd be just as fast as they are now. Unfortunately this would however nerf hybrids even further, my response to that would be doing so that it's at least 75% cheaper to get wpf in one skill if you already got wpf above that amount in another skill, which would make it a lot easier to hybrid out than it is now.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 05:09:16 pm

*COUGH thanks Tomas, look back on page 1 guys, he's more organized and professional*


All great points, thanks guys.  Glad to hear, especially Paul respond, because even the simplest formulas come out complicated as hell.


Even Panos has a point.  You can block - return swing against any weapon with any weapon, and that integrity has remained through every build, but I know we'd see 1000 more longsword and heavy bastard swords with 190 wpf running around.


Hmm!  Removing or lessening the wpf on level up does seem like the simplest fix.  A passive benefit to agility would be another.  Maybe a combination of the two?

Current formula (using the ol' calculator pack, sorry if its just a tiny bit off):
18/18 with 6 WM = 591 wpf
30/9 with 3 WM   = 381 wpf

Potential AGI instead of level gain formula[/spoiler]

Code: [Select]

wpf_0 = 25
delta_wpf_WM = (20+10*WM)    #for increasing WM by one
delta_wpf_[b]AGI[/b] = 5 + ([b]AGI[/b]-1) DIV 5           #for increasing [b]AGI [/b]by one
with DIV being (Euclidean) integer division(5 DIV 2 = 2), ignoring the remainder
delta_wpf = wpf_0 + delta_wpf_WM + delta_wpf_[b]agi[/b]
For total wpf gain over the whole career one can develop the following equation:

Code: [Select]

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + [b]AGI[/b]*(5+(([b]AGI[/b]-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((AGI-1)DIV5)*(((AGI-1)DIV5)+1)
(can't get my head around a better simplification for the lvl based wpf atm, sry)
example: [b]level 30; WM=6; Agility 18[/b] =>
total_wpf = 5*6*(5+6) + 25 + 18*(5+((18-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((18-1)DIV5)*(((18-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 330 + 25 + 18*(5+3) - 5/2*(3*(3+1))
total_wpf = 330 + 25 + 144 - 30 
[b]total_wpf = 469[/b]

example: [b]level 30; WM=3; Agility 9[/b] =>
total_wpf = 5*3*(5+3) + 25 + 9*(5+((9-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((9-1)DIV5)*(((9-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 120 + 25 + 9*(5+1) - 5/2*(1*(1+1))
total_wpf = 120 + 25 + 45 - 2.5 (wat)
[b][b]total_wpf = 188[/b][/b]

So simply substituting AGILITY for LEVEL in the formula, you're left with
18/18 max WM = 469
30/9 max WM   = 188

about 469 vs. 188 as opposed to 591 vs. 381 for a balanced vs. strength build. 

Put into a single weapon skill, that's  144 vs 100 as opposed to the current 156 vs. 133.  Again, I apologize, just used the cRPG calculator, might be just a few digits off.

I'm a shithead and I'm sure its not that simple.  That gap would naturally grow, the more impact you increased the amount that each AGI point gave you.  Maybe a combination of the two values, because unless you have 30 agility in your build, you're going to wind up with less wpf than you did before this way.

9/30 build would essentially have the same wpf that it does now though at level 30, since they're just swapped.  That creates a nice soft cap so you wouldn't see Bastard Swords with 200+ wpf.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Panos on December 26, 2012, 05:10:43 pm

Quote from: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 05:09:16 pm

Even Panos has a point.  You can block - return swing against any weapon with any weapon, and that integrity has remained through every build, but I know we'd see 1000 more longsword and heavy bastard swords with 190 wpf running around.

Uhm...Thanks??

I guess..

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 05:15:48 pm

Quote from: Panos on December 26, 2012, 05:10:43 pm

Uhm...Thanks??

I guess..

Np buddy, I got your back

Quote from: Tomas on December 26, 2012, 04:47:56 pm

1) Change level based wpf to agility based wpf and change DIV5 to DIV10
delta_wpf_agility = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 10           #for increasing lvl by one

How bad would High agility builds get if you kept it at DIV5?

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 26, 2012, 05:28:09 pm

Quote from: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 05:15:48 pm

How bad would High agility builds get if you kept it at DIV5?

45 agility, 15WM (possible at level 35) would get 1980 total_wpf as opposed to the current 1805 or 1930 with DIV10

For a more reasonable high agi build of 30 agility and 10WM you'd get 1050 rather than the current 1000 or 1020 with DIV10.

DIV10 probably isn't needed since i can't imagine anybody actually going to 45 agility and it doesn't effect low agi builds much, but i included it to try and keep the 30 agility builds as close in line with what they are now.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 05:42:29 pm

Solid, thanks man.  Very simple and reasonable.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Pentecost on December 26, 2012, 06:34:39 pm

I'll let other, more capable people work out the details of just how to do it, but I would support an overhaul of weapon proficiency/weapon master that accomplishes the following:

1.) Reduces the weapon proficiency of builds with zero Weapon Master
2.) Increases the weapon proficiency of builds with a large amount of Weapon Master (>5)
3.) Leaves the weapon proficiency of builds with a moderate amount of Weapon Master (~3) where it is currently


If the threat of 200+ wpf bastard swords, heavy bastard swords, longswords etc would be an issue, then I suggest either:

1.) Increasing the strength requirements on these and other very fast weapons so that they cannot be abused by extreme builds
OR
2.) Adjusting the curve so that sub-100 wpf takes fewer wpf points and 140+ wpf takes many more wpf points

Currently, a build with 7 Weapon Master--a huge investment, considering for the same number of points you can ride any horse in the game or get another whole level of power strike or athletics--falls well short of achieving 111 wpf in three different weapon classes. I feel that someone who has invested this heavily in his ability to melee hybrid should have more weapon proficiency at his disposal than he does currently but that he shouldn't be able to reach over 170-180 wpf in a single weapon class with it.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: San on December 26, 2012, 07:15:40 pm

Nice ideas guys. Just not a big fan of balanced builds losing wpf there. I think they should be relatively unchanged or boosted slightly.

I feel that

Quote

Adjusting the curve so that sub-100 wpf takes fewer wpf points and 140+ wpf takes many more wpf points

is ideal and slightly more complicated than simply flattening or steepening the wpf curve. It needs to be lenient for people who invest in WM at the lower levels so they can hyrbid, not make 0 WM too viable with balanced builds, and difficult to reach very high wpf levels. Making sure the WM skill is not too weak as wpf sources are changed is also a concern.

All I can really think of is to:

steepen the wpf curve at high levels
switch free wpf to agility (but less so than what leveling gives for 21 agi)
make higher values of WM give increasingly many more points so that pure builds won't gain much more max wpf than they do now, but it will be easy to get higher wpf values in secondary/tertiary weapons.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 07:33:14 pm

Agreed.  It just doesn't give you enough bang for your buck atm.  The more I crunch numbers, the more appropriate the current system seems, but thats only because I'm figuring in that weaponmaster gets maxed, rather than a couple points put in.  An incentive to pump 3 or 4 weaponmaster would be a flat rate benefit for each rank, say instead of 30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100,etc. it could be an even 70 / rank, and you pump points into it as needed.

70*WM + 25 + AGI*(5+((AGI-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((AGI-1)DIV5)*(((AGI-1)DIV5)+1)

@ level 30, 3 Agility, 1WM = 110 total_wpf (currently 280)
@ level 30, 6 Agility, 2WM = 198 total_wpf (currently 320)
@ level 30, 12 Agility, 4WM = 380 total_wpf (currently 430)
@ level 30, 18 Agility, 6WM = 571 total_wpf (currently 580)
@ level 30, 24 Agility, 8WM = 771 total_wpf (currently 770)
@ level 30, 30 Agility, 10WM = 950 total_wpf (currently 1000)
@ level 30, 36 Agility, 12WM =  1157 total_wpf (currently 1270)


Not quite perfect, but you see it keeps middle builds somewhat intact, while even a 27/12 build will have enough wpf to function.  Furthermore allows you to invest a moderate amount of WM, without needing to max it in a balanced or agility build.  Finally, there's a dropoff in benefit with higher agility builds, so you won't see agility builds breaking the sound barrier.  You still need strength to swing your weapon effectively, you still need enough agility to have some finesse.


Also, just saw your post ^^ I agree San.  Was hoping with all this we'd find a way for ranged to get 150 in bow/throw and be able to pop 110 or so into 1handers, or melee hybrid get 130/130 or so.  Flattening the curve could be the appropriate fix.  Just how doable any of this is, I have no idea. 

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Paul on December 26, 2012, 08:42:34 pm

agi instead of lvl seems interesting. increasing the WM gain slightly should also be done.

I'd get rid of the DIVx thingy because it makes total wpf calc hard(for me).
delta_wpf_agi=agi

With the current wpf0 and WM gain we'd have:
total_wpf=25+5*WM*(WM+1)+agi*(agi+1)/2

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 08:51:13 pm

Buffing attributes and making skills look bad, once again.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2012, 08:54:01 pm

Quote from: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 08:51:13 pm

Buffing attributes and making skills look bad, once again.

Leave the devs alone !

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Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Leshma on December 26, 2012, 09:03:37 pm

Him, nope. Balancers have special place in my (our) heart(s) :lol:

I'm more for skill oriented system, where attributes have one thing going about them (HP and movement speed for example, for STR and AGI), other than being requirement for having certain amount of skill points.

Currently attributes have more benefits than any skill. To achieve balance he wants to buff "weaker" party, agility, to give it power strength already has. And marginalize importance of skill points even more.

I'm pro hybrid because that means we play our builds, not the other way around. Server full of hybrid builds means that your role play is based on your actions in game, you aren't confined by some silly numbers that won't allow you to use that weapon or ride that horse :wink:

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 26, 2012, 09:09:57 pm

I'm hybrid too, m8.  18/18, 18/21 would benefit the most from this.  He's talking about a buff to the skill weaponmaster.  The passive wpf from agi would be pretty negligable for a min/maxer.  Powerstrike, athletics, and riding are all phenominal skills as is.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 09:29:52 pm

My suggestion is still the only one which doesn't either slow things down or nerf hybrids.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 12:47:10 am

Quote from: Paul on December 26, 2012, 08:42:34 pm

With the current wpf0 and WM gain we'd have:
total_wpf=25+5*WM*(WM+1)+agi*(agi+1)/2

That formula gives some very low wpfs - only 406 total_wpf @ 18 agi, 6WM, instead of the current 580.

If you like simplified formulas though how about

total_wpf = 15*Agi + 55*WM

With this you get the following total_wpfs
@ level 30, 3 Agility, 1WM = 100 total_wpf (currently 280)
@ level 30, 6 Agility, 2WM = 200 total_wpf (currently 320)
@ level 30, 12 Agility, 4WM = 400 total_wpf (currently 430)
@ level 30, 18 Agility, 6WM = 600 total_wpf (currently 580)
@ level 30, 24 Agility, 8WM = 800 total_wpf (currently 770)
@ level 30, 30 Agility, 10WM = 1000 total_wpf (currently 1000)
@ level 30, 36 Agility, 12WM =  1200 total_wpf (currently 1270)

PROs
- It nerfs low agi or 0WM builds
- It buffs medium -> high agi/WM builds
- It still allows medium agi, low WM builds as nicely viable, keeping medium -> high WM as mainly the choice of hybrids
- It is extremely simple to calculate and explain
- It is extremely simple to change

The only unintentional repercussion is a nerf is to extreme agi/WM builds, but these are rare &usually only for trolling anyway. The nerf is also pretty small and it just means there's no danger of breaking the system with stupidly high actual_wpfs.  Basically I don't care about these being nerfed slightly :D

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 27, 2012, 12:54:18 am

Quote from: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 12:47:10 am

That formula gives some very low wpfs - only 406 total_wpf @ 18 agi, 6WM, instead of the current 580.

If you like simplified formulas though how about

total_wpf = 15*Agi + 55*WM

With this you get the following total_wpfs
@ level 30, 3 Agility, 1WM = 100 total_wpf (currently 280)
@ level 30, 6 Agility, 2WM = 200 total_wpf (currently 320)
@ level 30, 12 Agility, 4WM = 400 total_wpf (currently 430)
@ level 30, 18 Agility, 6WM = 600 total_wpf (currently 580)
@ level 30, 24 Agility, 8WM = 800 total_wpf (currently 770)
@ level 30, 30 Agility, 10WM = 1000 total_wpf (currently 1000)
@ level 30, 36 Agility, 12WM =  1200 total_wpf (currently 1270)

PROs
- It nerfs low agi or 0WM builds
- It buffs medium -> high agi/WM builds
- It nerfs extreme agi/WM builds a bit and therefore will not break anything ;)
- It still allows medium agi, low WM builds as nicely viable, keeping medium -> high WM as mainly the choice of hybrids
- It is extremely simple to calculate and explain
- It is extremely simple to change

Yeah, those 3-9str guy wm stackers are sure dangerous and overpowered, thank goat I can rest easier knowing that people with 2ps and 12wm won't be as invincible as they are now.  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 01:24:23 am

Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 27, 2012, 12:54:18 am

Yeah, those 3-9str guy wm stackers are sure dangerous and overpowered, thank goat I can rest easier knowing that people with 2ps and 12wm won't be as invincible as they are now.  :rolleyes:

See modified post about that.  You must have started replying almost as soon as i posted since i changed that bit within 2 mins of posting :D

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 27, 2012, 01:29:13 am

Quote from: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 01:24:23 am

See modified post about that.  You must have started replying almost as soon as i posted since i changed that bit within 2 mins of posting :D

Well in any case there are enough solutions to the wm issue that picking one which hits people who don't deserve it in any way doesn't make sense.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 01:56:01 am

Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 27, 2012, 01:29:13 am

Well in any case there are enough solutions to the wm issue that picking one which hits people who don't deserve it in any way doesn't make sense.

OMG you are right!  The loss of 70 total_wpf from 12WM builds will make the game unplayable for 90% of the cRPG community.  I don't know anybody that uses less than 10WM and so how can I expect the entire community to wield their 6 strength requirement weapons with only 202 wpf rather than 205.  I dread to think how many mains will now be useless and unable cope with the drop in combat speed arising from the loss of those 3 vital wpf points!

(click to show/hide)

Just in case you can't detect sarcasm - are you serious???? You are going to complain about a suggestion that does everything people need/want it to because it unintentionally nerfs the least used builds in cRPG by between 1 and 5 actual_wpf points?

As for better solutions - of course there could be better solutions but so far only myself, Paul and Uumdi can be bothered to actually model them and none of those models have been without unintentional side effects.  If you have your own perfect model and equation then by all means post it so we can have a look.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 27, 2012, 04:14:59 am

Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 27, 2012, 12:54:18 am

Yeah, those 3-9str guy wm stackers are sure dangerous and overpowered, thank goat I can rest easier knowing that people with 2ps and 12wm won't be as invincible as they are now.  :rolleyes:

You laugh now.... Just you wait till I get a +3 wakizashi....

(click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Weewum on December 27, 2012, 05:16:06 am

I think they should continue fucking up the mod until WSE2 is the final nail in the coffin.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 27, 2012, 07:29:20 am

Quote from: Weewum on December 27, 2012, 05:16:06 am

I think they should continue fucking up the mod until WSE2 is the final nail in the coffin.

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Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2012, 07:53:33 am

Quote from: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 12:47:10 am

That formula gives some very low wpfs - only 406 total_wpf @ 18 agi, 6WM, instead of the current 580.

If you like simplified formulas though how about

total_wpf =15*agi+55*WM

You can't directly tinker with the total wpf formular. You have to change the deltas instead and the new total will result from that. What can be done is that I parameterize delta wpf WM and in a similar style delta wpf agi.

So then we have:
wpf_0
delta_wpf_WM=a+b*WM       
(currently a=20 and b=10)
delta_wpf_agi=c+d*agi

total_wpf=wpf_0+sum(wpf_WM)+sum(wpf_agi)
total_wpf=wpf_0+a*WM+b*WM*(WM+1)/2+c*agi+d*agi*(agi+1)/2
total_wpf=wpf_0+WM*(a+b*(WM+1)/2)+agi*(c+d*(agi+1)/2)

You can then freely choose wpf_0, a, b,c and d for theorycrafting.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Uumdi on December 27, 2012, 09:41:14 am

Quote from: Paul on December 27, 2012, 07:53:33 am

You can't directly tinker with the total wpf formular. You have to change the deltas instead and the new total will result from that. What can be done is that I parameterize delta wpf WM and in a similar style delta wpf agi.

So then we have:
wpf_0
delta_wpf_WM=a+b*WM       
(currently a=20 and b=10)
delta_wpf_agi=c+d*agi

total_wpf=wpf_0+sum(wpf_WM)+sum(wpf_agi)
total_wpf=wpf_0+a*WM+b*WM*(WM+1)/2+c*agi+d*agi*(agi+1)/2
total_wpf=wpf_0+WM*(a+b*(WM+1)/2)+agi*(c+d*(agi+1)/2)

You can then freely choose wpf_0, a, b,c and d for theorycrafting.

Its in your hands, Paul.  We have faith.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 27, 2012, 12:37:17 pm

Quote from: Paul on December 27, 2012, 07:53:33 am

You can't directly tinker with the total wpf formular.

To which extent (if any) is it possible to edit the actual wpf (like 2h wpf) formulas?

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2012, 02:32:52 pm

No idea if that will be changed.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 04:24:42 pm

Quote from: Paul on December 27, 2012, 07:53:33 am

You can't directly tinker with the total wpf formular. You have to change the deltas instead and the new total will result from that. What can be done is that I parameterize delta wpf WM and in a similar style delta wpf agi.

So then we have:
wpf_0
delta_wpf_WM=a+b*WM       
(currently a=20 and b=10)
delta_wpf_agi=c+d*agi

total_wpf=wpf_0+sum(wpf_WM)+sum(wpf_agi)
total_wpf=wpf_0+a*WM+b*WM*(WM+1)/2+c*agi+d*agi*(agi+1)/2
total_wpf=wpf_0+WM*(a+b*(WM+1)/2)+agi*(c+d*(agi+1)/2)

You can then freely choose wpf_0, a, b,c and d for theorycrafting.

Easy
wpf_0 = 0
a = 55
b = 0
c = 15
d = 0

That gives
total_wpf=0+55*WM+0*WM*(WM+1)/2+15*agi+0*agi*(agi+1)/2

which simplifies to
total_wpf = 55*WM+15*agi

and give the results shown in my previous post using that formula

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2012, 05:19:57 pm

The problem with a fixed gain per WM is that it seems less rewarding to put a point into WM for higher level guys because of the increased wpf point demand for raising a high weapon skill. So while the total wpf formular is nice and linear, the actual gain seems diminishing for the leveling player. Hence the non-zero b in the current formular and the non-linear total wpf result.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Kafein on December 27, 2012, 05:46:12 pm

Quote from: Paul on December 27, 2012, 05:19:57 pm

The problem with a fixed gain per WM is that it seems less rewarding to put a point into WM for higher level guys because of the increased wpf point demand for raising a high weapon skill. So while the total wpf formular is nice and linear, the actual gain seems diminishing for the leveling player. Hence the non-zero b in the current formular and the non-linear total wpf result.

It does make sense to have diminishing results IMO. Not that extreme, of course. Also, for that to be justified, all skill should have diminishing results, which isn't the case, except for PT and PD penalties.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: San on December 27, 2012, 06:27:16 pm

wpf_0 = 0

a = 1
b = 11

c = 0.1
d = 0.8

People ~5-6 won't notice much difference. 7 and above notice more. No WM would only be tolerable for agi builds.

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I disagree that there should be diminishing returns for WM, since there is only a variation of 2-3 skill points between builds, and I feel those differences should feel important. Linearly increasing seems fine in most cases, but I am not so sure for wpf.

I wanted a more linear end, but because we can only change the deltas, a cap on the maximum wpf might be needed (180-210).

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 06:32:04 pm

Quote from: Paul on December 27, 2012, 05:19:57 pm

The problem with a fixed gain per WM is that it seems less rewarding to put a point into WM for higher level guys because of the increased wpf point demand for raising a high weapon skill. So while the total wpf formular is nice and linear, the actual gain seems diminishing for the leveling player. Hence the non-zero b in the current formular and the non-linear total wpf result.

It makes sense though - high WM is for hybrids not specialist spammers.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tomas on December 27, 2012, 06:39:33 pm

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: san. on December 27, 2012, 06:27:16 pm

wpf_0 = 0

a = 1
b = 11

c = 0.1
d = 0.8

People ~5-6 won't notice much difference. 7 and above notice more. No WM would only be tolerable for agi builds.

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I disagree that there should be diminishing returns for WM, since there is only a variation of 2-3 skill points between builds, and I feel those differences should feel important. Linearly increasing seems fine in most cases, but I am not so sure for wpf.

I wanted a more linear end, but because we can only change the deltas, a cap on the maximum wpf might be needed (200-210).

You seem to have calculated the old formula based on agility rather than level which is why your line is so low compared to mine.  To compare we've been calculating wpfs from the old formula always based on level 30 chars

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2012, 06:41:34 pm

Quote from: san. on December 27, 2012, 06:27:16 pm

wpf_0 = 0

a = 1
b = 11

c = 0.1
d = 0.8

You should keep the parameters as integers though because with c=0.1 and d=0.8 for example increasing agi from 3 to 4 would lead to a non-integer wpf gain(+3.3) at that point.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: San on December 27, 2012, 06:42:44 pm

I was wondering if it would allow floating points at all. D is much too large at 1, though...

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2012, 06:47:15 pm

d can be zero and total wpf gain from agi will be completely linear which is fine. like in tomas' solution with c=15 and d=0.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Phew on December 31, 2012, 04:23:33 pm

Did I understand San's suggestion correctly as:

Remove "free" wpf from leveling, add wpf for each point in agility?

If so, sounds good to me. People with 5-6 weapon master would be largely unaffected, and I think these people make up the bulk of the population. 0 WM will be less viable (as it should be), and 7+ WM will be marginally better without allowing agility katana wielders to double-swing everyone.

I think any buff to WM will have to be accompanied by a nerf to weapon damage early in the swing animation for 1h left swing, polearm right swing, and both 2h sideswing directions. People already abuse turning into their swings to significantly amplify weapon speed, and it would make weapon speed and wpf matter a lot more if you require swings to actually generate some momentum before they deliver significant damage.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Tydeus on January 11, 2013, 06:24:08 am

Cool, we have a formula. This doesn't change the fact that you guys are putting the cart before the horse. Figure out what you'd like to see done, then build the formula to simulate those results.


Questions that need asked:
At what level of wm should a player finally have more wpf than what the current is in crpg? (I say 4 WM)

Should 1 WM or 3 Agi contribute more wpf? How much more? (I think somewhere around a 2:1 ratio wpp from WM:Agi)

Linear or non-linear wpf gain from agi?('d' over 1 should probably not even be considered, 1 is also my suggested amount)

Linear or non-lenear wpf gain from wm?(probably don't want this to be linear)

Should there be an arbitrary wpf cap?(no)

Should hybrids suffer penalties of some sort? Should they get bonuses?(probably should be something here, but you can't impose it with this formula)

The last two are rather unnecessary to answer currently as they can be addressed later, but the others are imperative. I don't see how you can just plug numbers into a formula randomly and go "yeah that looks acceptable", while trying to end up with a lasting formula.

Currently what I've been playing with is something like this: wpf_0=50, a=50, b=7, c=3, d=1. It's about 1.5:1 wm wpf:agi wpf.

This is what it looks like:
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Even with a lesser amount of wpf, I still would suggest that the ratio of wpf from wm be at least 1.5:1.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Rhaelys on March 05, 2013, 06:43:36 am

Per Tydeus' commentary in Nditions Teamspeak:

Current tentative rough being-discussed in-development not-finalized idea for Weapon Master (WM), Weapon Proficency (WPF), and Weapon Proficiency Points (WPP) change

0 Weapon Master yields about 50 WPF for only 1 weapon class

4-5 Weapon Master yields about the same WPF for only 1 weapon class as the 4-5 Weapon Master yields under the current system

8 Weapon Master yields about 170 WPF in only 1 weapon class or 130/130 WPF split in 2 weapon classes


The formula for the amount of WPP needed to increase WPF by 1 will be very simple:

1-25 WPF = 1 WPP
26-50 WPF = 2 WPP
51-75 WPF = 3 WPP
76-100 WPF = 4 WPP
101-125 WPF = 5 WPP
126-150 WPF = 6 WPP
151-175 WPF = 7 WPP
176-200 WPF = 8 WPP
201-225 WPF = 9 WPP
226-250 WPF = 10 WPP

Not sure on how many WPP each point of WM will offer, but possibly a little more?

*Points in Agility will yield WPP as well

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Torost on March 05, 2013, 07:57:40 am

I never liked wpf.

if you have 150 wpf in 2hand.. a master.
You are suddenly a complete beginner if you pick up a 1hand sword.

Makes it really hard to rely on scavenging weapons from the battlefield.
better to use a plain weapon of your dedicated proficency.. then to pick up a MW one with other prof from the battlefield.
if you spread the wpf out on all 3 , you end up with subpar stats in all. And higher upkeep.

If you do not put most of your wpf in throwing or archery. You can not have decent damage or wear any armor.
And you arrows break nomatterwhat your wpf.

much better than the current scheme would be:

Swordmaster
Axemaster
Spearmaster
etc...

Where it did not matter if it was classified as 1 or 2hand. Some might even be throwable when reaching a certain level of wpf, like spears and axes with alternatve mode.

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Rumblood on March 05, 2013, 08:13:21 am

Quote from: Torost on March 05, 2013, 07:57:40 am

I never liked wpf.

if you have 150 wpf in 2hand.. a master.
You are suddenly a complete beginner if you pick up a 1hand sword.

much better than the current scheme would be:

Swordmaster
Axemaster
Spearmaster
etc...

Where it did not matter if it was classified as 1 or 2hand. Some might even be throwable when reaching a certain level of wpf, like spears and axes with alternatve mode.

Put this in a forum where it may find a home. *hint hint*

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Rhaelys on March 05, 2013, 05:20:13 pm

Quote from: Rhaelys on March 05, 2013, 06:43:36 am

Per Tydeus' commentary in Nditions Teamspeak:

Current tentative rough being-discussed in-development not-finalized idea for Weapon Master (WM), Weapon Proficency (WPF), and Weapon Proficiency Points (WPP) change

0 Weapon Master yields about 50 WPF for only 1 weapon class

4-5 Weapon Master yields about the same WPF for only 1 weapon class as the 4-5 Weapon Master yields under the current system

8 Weapon Master yields about 170 WPF in only 1 weapon class or 130/130 WPF split in 2 weapon classes


The formula for the amount of WPP needed to increase WPF by 1 will be very simple:

1-25 WPF = 1 WPP
26-50 WPF = 2 WPP
51-75 WPF = 3 WPP
76-100 WPF = 4 WPP
101-125 WPF = 5 WPP
126-150 WPF = 6 WPP
151-175 WPF = 7 WPP
176-200 WPF = 8 WPP
201-225 WPF = 9 WPP
226-250 WPF = 10 WPP

Not sure on how many WPP each point of WM will offer, but possibly a little more?

*Points in Agility will yield WPP as well

What do people feel about this?

Title: Re: Potential WPF / WM Changes
Post by: Phew on March 05, 2013, 05:22:22 pm

Quote from: Rhaelys on March 05, 2013, 05:20:13 pm

What do people feel about this?

Regardless of the actual formula for weapon master, I like the idea of replacing "free" wpf from leveling with wpf from agility points.