cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 03:41:05 pm

Title: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 03:41:05 pm
Hey all!

As you can see in the screenshots in Dave's Crossbow Guide, crossbows and bolts used to be lighter (see /guides/crossbowery-basics-and-tricks/).

Please change the weight back to normal.

There is no point in kiting when you have a crossbow anyway, cuz once your bolt is gone, you are not gonna reload the xbow as fast as a bow. So there is no reason to make crossbowmen slower. There are some people like me who use light armor to be fast, for example to compensate the short range of the melee weapon or to allow quick flanking maneuvers. Now, I am running as if I was a tincan and can't play around with my short weapon the same way as before.

Please don't exclude the "light armor/crossbow/1 slot melee weapon" playstyle for no reason. It's not OP, so there is no reason to nerf it. Rather be happy that some crossbowmen use light armor though they could use heavier stuff without a loss of accuracy. We are easy to kill and die in one swing, max 2 )))

Thanks,
Rico

P.S.: @ all haters who think like Zlisch, read my answer at least.
P.P.S.: @ ALL: If you want more arguments that support my position, but don't have time to read the whole discussion, read page [2] post #8.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 16, 2012, 03:44:21 pm
chocolate chip cookie
+1
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 16, 2012, 03:49:36 pm
Rico while kiting with an xbow is horribly uneffective then it did happen, there were a few xbowmen more than willing to cause a draw (which happened several times) rather than pull out their melee weapon.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Grumbs on December 16, 2012, 03:54:56 pm
Lol, so NOT taking a crossbow gains you what exactly? A bit more gold? In terms of builds theres nothing stopping people taking a xbow and losing virtually nothing, except a little mobility and repair costs. You can even use xbows with 1 wpf, but the way wpf works for melee you can have plenty left over to put a decent amount into xbows without worrying about affecting your melee capability.

The weight and repair costs are the only balancing factor atm to make people think twice about carrying one around with their melee build

Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 04:02:15 pm
I don't agree, Zlisch. When you kite as a crossbowman, you don't have a chance to reload the xbow anyway unless u run for like 2 minutes. This is why your delaying crossbowman on Eu1 did not kite to shoot again, but to run away. And someone who is running away anyway can drop xbow and bolts easily and keep running, delaying or causing a draw. So this is not an argument why the xbow and bolt weight should be increased.

Try a lil utility analysis: Making crossbows and bolts heavier makes light armor xbowmen useless.
+ positive: the guy running away on Eu1 has to drop his xbow before he starts running, so either it's still a draw, or he dies in a lil more pityful way without his favorite weapon in his hands.
- negative: more tincan xbows; some of them do not even want to play like this. These guys (including me) suffer from the change.

Who the hell wouldn't want to get the old xbow/bolts weight back??
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 04:07:05 pm
@Grumbs:

Crossbows are fucking expensive and they break like every round when you don't have wpf. This is why not everyone uses crossbows, or did you see a server full of guys, and EVERYONE had a crossbow in addition to his melee weapon?

Besides, you will  only equip the really good crossbows (heavy/arbalest) when you are fine with just one slot for your melee weapon. So please, think twice before you complain.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Grumbs on December 16, 2012, 04:11:35 pm
People don't all take xbow because they don't want to play sniper wars in a medieval combat game.

The actual balance is poor..the 1 slot xbows simply cost a bit at round end or weigh you down a bit. Ideally you would have to spend some points away from melee stuff to have your ranged build

As it is now I still see people kiting plenty if they play a dedicated xbow build, if you don't play dedicated then you should stop and fight in melee
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Leshma on December 16, 2012, 04:19:18 pm
Veselov is responsible for that.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 04:21:50 pm
@Grumbs
Everyone is exploiting the shit out of this game anyway, so disliking sniper-gameplay is not the reason why not everyone uses a xbow. The reason why people without xbow wpf don't use xbows is the high repair cost. Besides, you can call it sniper only when you are accurate, and with 1 wpf, you are not accurate.

Did you listen? I don't want this for kiting, but for more "effective althetics" in melee combat. So don't tell me how to handle my hybrid build.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Grumbs on December 16, 2012, 04:39:28 pm
You get less than 10 weight extra, thats like saying someone who goes in heavy armour rather than medium then has useless speed in melee. People don't even take as much ath as some xbow users in the first place. If you take double ammo then you will have to shoot all round to make use of it anyway, and you should get some down sides in melee

No you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Deal with it. If its such a hassle and you don't intend to go kiting then drop the xbow until you kill the other guy
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Knitler on December 16, 2012, 04:45:18 pm
make somethign realistic and between.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Malaclypse on December 16, 2012, 04:52:07 pm
The weight is pretty ridiculous.

 For a crossbow and two stacks of Steel Bolts it's 13.5 (an individual Steel Bolt weighs .41, almost the same as Hatchet, Wooden Sword, or Sickle, and there are twelve of them); if we assume a melee weapon of 2 weight we wind up with 15.5 for weapons alone.

For an Arbalest user that weight changes to 9.3 + an assumed 2 weight sidearm for a total of 11.3.

...whereas I can go into battle with a shield (Elite Cav), hoplite weapon (Red Tassel) and a 1-hand (Iberian Mace) and get away with only 9.5 weight from it.

Even someone who's using a Great Maul plus a Warhammer, both fully heirloomed for more weight, will be at 11.5 total weapon weight, just marginally above the Arbalest loadout.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 04:59:23 pm
@Grumbs

Your whole point (besides the cake) is that
- You want to discourage random (non-crossbow build) people to spawn with crossbows.
- You don't want dedicated crossbowers to kite.

My answer is that
- Most random people already don't spawn with crossbows cuz they are expensive in use without wpf. The few who do use them nevertheless loose a shitload of money, so laugh at these fools.
- Dedicated crossbowers who kite are not OP just because you are not fast enough to catch them. A crossbower who kites can't do anything at all for like two minutes until he gets far away, able to reload. Laugh at him too, because he does not help his team and does not kill a single person. When you are in battle, wait for some cav to get him. When you are in siege, lure him into a dead end.

It's rock-paper-scissors after all. When you are rock, be happy to beat scissors and accept to be killed by paper. Even a two-hand-hero is not omnipotent.

I want my cake now.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Pentecost on December 16, 2012, 05:01:50 pm
Quote from: CalradiasPride_Torak on December 16, 2012, 04:07:05 pm
This is why not everyone uses crossbows, or did you see a server full of guys, and EVERYONE had a crossbow in addition to his melee weapon?

Maybe it's different over on EU, but 2h/crossbow is one of the most popular and effective builds on NA. During primetime, it's not uncommon to see them turn out in large numbers. Proportionally, I think they actually outnumber archers, lancers, and pikemen these days.

Quote from: CalradiasPride_Torak on December 16, 2012, 04:07:05 pm
Besides, you will  only equip the really good crossbows (heavy/arbalest) when you are fine with just one slot for your melee weapon.

You say that as though a +3 normal crossbow with +3 steel bolts isn't actually better than the heavy crossbow or arbalest from the standpoint of minmaxing because you can use a greatsword with it.


Regarding crossbow weight specifically: Most archers these days (I am not an archer, by the way) usually drop their bow and arrows when they're about to enter a melee. If the weight of your crossbow and bolts is really that much of a problem, why don't you just do the same before you whip out your sidearm?
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Grumbs on December 16, 2012, 05:05:06 pm
Metaclypse, comparing it to melee equipment is missing the point of the weight increase

Its to reduce kiting and encourage people to stop and fight in melee
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 05:07:52 pm
@Pentecost

I don't drop it because everyone can pick it up. To pick up a bow, you need PD. To pick up a crossbow, you just need some STR you have anyway. I don't want to be dissed after dropping it.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 05:10:20 pm
@Grumbs

Again, smart crossbowers don't kite. Kiting with a crossbow is stupid as you are useless while kiting. So be happy about kiting crossbowmen in the enemy team.

I agree that it's different for archers. They can reload while running, turn around and shoot you. But crossbowmen just can't. Not even in the divine crossbow paradise this is possible.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 05:14:03 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on December 16, 2012, 05:05:06 pm
Its to reduce kiting and encourage people to stop and fight in melee
Why reduce kiting when it's stupid anyway? For Grumbs to get the kill instead of his light-armored teammate?
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Pentecost on December 16, 2012, 05:23:42 pm
Quote from: Malaclypse on December 16, 2012, 04:52:07 pm
The weight is pretty ridiculous.

 For a crossbow and two stacks of Steel Bolts it's 13.5 (an individual Steel Bolt weighs .41, almost the same as Hatchet, Wooden Sword, or Sickle, and there are twelve of them); if we assume a melee weapon of 2 weight we wind up with 15.5 for weapons alone.

For an Arbalest user that weight changes to 9.3 + an assumed 2 weight sidearm for a total of 11.3.

...whereas I can go into battle with a shield (Elite Cav), hoplite weapon (Red Tassel) and a 1-hand (Iberian Mace) and get away with only 9.5 weight from it.

The situation before the weight changes wasn't exactly ideal either though. A player with a normal crossbow (3 weight), 1 stack of steel bolts (2.2 weight) and a German Greatsword (2.5 weight), only had 7.7 weight in total for weapons despite using all 4 of his slots. In other words, the weight of your Elite Cavalry Shield alone (5.5 weight) was more than what his crossbow and bolts weighed together, even though it's the lightest high-tier shield that isn't a buckler.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 05:40:02 pm
Wow, that's like: It was bad before, so there is no reason to make it better now.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: karasu on December 16, 2012, 06:14:47 pm
This was more of a Shik measure so archers can't QQ pointing fingers to crossbowmen "but their ammo is still light, nerf them too disregard making any sense of it!".

Oh well.. ┐(￣ー￣)┌
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rumblood on December 16, 2012, 06:30:46 pm
The ability to bug out is of extreme strategic value. It is the complaint of tincans that led to nerf of agility builds in various ways. In archers with rapid firing bows, it gave the ability to have perfect measure (inability to be hit while delivering hits themselves).
Battle, where a majority of players live, is not a 1 vs 1 theoretical situation. Smart players recognize when to go down in a flurry of swings, or when to haul anchor and take off back to their team's scrum (I won't poorly describe it as a battle line). In strategus, however, there certainly are battle line/shield walls to get back to hide and reload.
A light armored infantry with weapon and xbow and bolts, should not simply be able to bug out when the tincan gets into range. A light armored with only a melee weapon, certainly. That is what the difference in the builds should be. The ability to take hits vs the ability to control the engagement. But add in a ranged component for the light armored infantry, and they should no longer be able to extract themselves when the tincan gets close. They control the engagement at a distance now with a bolt through the head, not by being able to run away when they miss their shot.

Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rico on December 16, 2012, 07:42:43 pm
You can also bug out with low movement speed, as long as you have infantry teammates who cover your back, intercepting the enemy in the right moment. This does not serve the discussion. Or do you want to forbid archers and crossbowmen to move in general? This would turn cRPG into a RPG with tower-defence elements, similar to Dungeon Defenders. Maybe you should start to play this :P

However, imagine the following situation: I am a random crossbow guy and I shoot at a tincan. I miss. I run away. I am behind the (non-) battle line. A horseman kills me. A possible rock, scissor, paper situation. It's fair, isn't it?

In the end, the advantage about a higher movement speed for crossbowmen is not that they can retreat. The reason is that retreating is risky because of cavalry and dead ends. It's much better to fight back in melee, otherwise, they are easy prey. And when infantry is behind a crossbowman, he can't kite and shoot in the classic way archers used to do it before the patch. So this is really not about kiting or retreating.

It's rather about the ability to move fast with your melee weapon. Archers can go melee with their bow. They reload it and target approaching infantry, even shielders. All they have to do to kill a shielder is standing before the enemy with a pulled bowstring, and when he is close enough, they step to the side and hit him around the shield. Crossbowmen can't reload the crossbow that easily and therefore, they need melee skill to offer at least a little bit resistance. I don't want to make them as strong as infantrists, of course not. But they should at least have a slight chance.

And for this chance, movement speed is essential. If you focus your build on your crossbow, it could be 12/27 or 15/24, for example. There is not much power strike, and the crossbowman has to fight very well not to bounce off the enemy's armor. Without the old movement speed, the slight chance to win a melee fight is even much slighter.

If you really want stationary ranged players who can't defend themselves even a bit in melee, play a fucking tower defence game. This is not gambling: I am a ranger, so I have exactly one chance to kill the enemy infantrist, and when this shot misses (or is sucked into the huge forcefield of a round steel buckler, wooohoooo), I can actually kill myself because there is no point in surrendering anyway. I accept that I can't shoot the feet of a buckler user, that's okay. But then, once this guy is standing right before me, I want to be able to fight back. Give me my movement speed back to do that! When I don't deal much damage, I at least want to be dancing around the enemy, trying to distract him. With the correct footwork, I can even wound him when I do it very well. When I am slow as hell, this does not work.

There might be guys like SB_Veselov mentioned by Leshma. They use a dedicated crossbow build and kite every round in battle. It's annoying, I agree. On the other hand, this is nothing more than escalation of commitment. He is doing bullshit while kiting, it's pointless to run away, trying to get that much space between him and the enemy to actually reload the crossbow. In the whole time, he could have helped 5 teammates in melee. He just does not reflect about what he is doing, and he keeps making the same mistake over and over again. It's bothering everyone on Eu1 and it's not even smart what he is doing. But is that a reason why I am not allowed to use my 1 slot melee weapon the same way as I did before? I used to be weak in melee, but I always had a slight chance to trick the enemy by good footwork and fast movement. Same for many other crossbow players. I personally do not want cRPG to be less fun just because some random guy is annoying the hell out of everyone. If it makes you so angry that he is kiting, just tell him to stop. Talk to him, but don't nerf the whole class for no reason. And this guy is only annoying you guys on battle. HRE is playing siege most of the time, and I just want to have fun there. Nerf the movement speed of crossbowmen on battle, but leave siege unaffected. Noone is kiting there anyway, as there are always the walls of the castle who force you to stop. Just please, do something about it, but find a better solution than making me super-slow as if I would wear plate when I am only wearing my reinforced ragged outfit.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 12:09:54 am
Quote from: CalradiasPride_Torak on December 16, 2012, 07:42:43 pm
Tons of QQ.

You want the ranged capability, take the downsides too. You can't defend yourself because you are slower? L2Play. Try archer with 1 wpf in melee, a 12 inch long hammer and no shield. Or quit trying to be Rambo and DON'T TAKE A XBOW so you can dance a ballet again. And don't EVEN try to this crap that an archer is better than a xbow vs a shielder at close range  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 17, 2012, 12:44:00 am
Quote from: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 12:09:54 am
You want the ranged capability, take the downsides too. You can't defend yourself because you are slower? L2Play. Try archer with 1 wpf in melee, a 12 inch long hammer and no shield. Or quit trying to be Rambo and DON'T TAKE A XBOW so you can dance a ballet again. And don't EVEN try to this crap that an archer is better than a xbow vs a shielder at close range  :rolleyes:
You can make a proper archer with a few stats in melee easily, you just choose to stack athletics to the max.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Grumbs on December 17, 2012, 12:49:55 am
Quote from: CalradiasPride_Torak on December 16, 2012, 04:59:23 pm
It's rock-paper-scissors after all. When you are rock, be happy to beat scissors and accept to be killed by paper. Even a two-hand-hero is not omnipotent.

I want my cake now.

I don't agree that this game is intended to be rock/paper/scissors with its game design. If I meet a ranged player in melee I want to have a proper melee fight, not feel like I press a button and I win because I'm in melee range. I don't play games that reward people for simply taking part, you should be rewarded by how well you played not that you faced your class that you counter.

Its more like everyone is Rock to some extent. Then you have Rock vs Rock and then we have Rock + Paper or Rock + Dynamite, and other permutations. Since everyone has some aspect of Rock that is what the game should be balanced around. We need soft counters rather than hard counters if we all can use Rock. I don't want to simplify it like this though.

Cav can counter melee and melee can counter cav. Ranged can counter melee and melee can defensively counter ranged situationally. Melee can counter ranged in melee range but then that is melee vs melee (with minor advantage to pure melee against ranged player). Melee and cav damage is situational, while ranged counters everything while ranged, and also can counter cav or melee in melee range. Its like ranged can choose to be either Rock or Paper at will if we are to go along with a simplistic rock/paper/scissors design. Ranged hard counters everything

So yeah its more complicated and it should be. Its all about balance and counters, whats fun to play and rewarding player skill were possible
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: LastKaze on December 17, 2012, 02:10:30 am
So my analysis on crossbows, since playing crossbowman 2 gens ago, I have to say that atm xbows are still kinda op, if you can sit back from a fight and pop some bolts into people why complain about running away, maybe if you stop playing crossbow for a gen and go melee, you might actually feel why xbow had to be nerfed, and even with the weight increase, xbows still do a lot of damage. Don't know why your complaining about the weight increase at all, maybe it's because your one of those pussies that like to run away from a fight, reload your crossbow then shoot the guy as he is running at you with his sword.

p.s I've been a crossbowman for 23 of my 25 gens.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 03:37:48 am
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 17, 2012, 12:44:00 am
You can make a proper archer with a few stats in melee easily, you just choose to stack athletics to the max.

No, you can't make a proper archer. You can make a toon that can use a bow, but not hit the broadside of a barn, plus kinda melee with your 1 hander unless you come up against a pure melee build. Or you can take a 1h + shield/2 hander and cut your arrow supply in half and still not be able to hit a barn.

Or you can be an actual archer that hits what they aim for, with 1wpf in either a 1 hander, or a really gimp 0 slot 1 hander.

Get real  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 17, 2012, 07:29:15 am
Quote from: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 03:37:48 am
No, you can't make a proper archer. You can make a toon that can use a bow, but not hit the broadside of a barn, plus kinda melee with your 1 hander unless you come up against a pure melee build. Or you can take a 1h + shield/2 hander and cut your arrow supply in half and still not be able to hit a barn.

Or you can be an actual archer that hits what they aim for, with 1wpf in either a 1 hander, or a really gimp 0 slot 1 hander.

Get real  :rolleyes:
It's funny 'cause this is bullshit.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 07:38:17 am
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 17, 2012, 07:29:15 am
It's funny 'cause this is bullshit.

What's funny is your bullshit idea of what constitutes an proper archer.  :idea:
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 17, 2012, 08:19:13 am
Quote from: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 07:38:17 am
What's funny is your bullshit idea of what constitutes an proper archer.  :idea:
18/21
6ps, 6pd, 7wm, 4ath, 160wpf in archery, 50ish wpf in whatever melee proficiency you choose, there are one slot 2hs and poles, if you can't use that in melee then l2play. Your bullshit idea of an archer is a char who is invincible towards everyone else and can happily run forever and keep shooting without ever entering danger.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 05:37:48 pm
I stand corrected. Some archer play styles are possible to have a miniscule melee ability. Not mine. (and yeah, 50 wpf is miniscule and still somewhat of a joke to call it melee ability).

I don't kite anybody btw, so you still get a fuck you for that. I also don't stand on rooftops or hillsides. I fight cavalry. 4 athletics is a JOKE in the open field. The athletics and weight and damage nerf along with the shrunken horses head makes it nearly impossible to do what I and cavalry used to do, which is fight in the open with an equal chance of one of us winning. Neophyte cavalry got owned by me. Very skilled cavalry like Rohypnol beat me more often than I beat them.

GG. I play 1h/shield + thrower now and kill more cavalry than I ever did as an archer and now I can also kick your ass in melee. Your archer hate has only given me a stronger hybrid than ever before  :twisted:


P.S. - Get fucked xbow nerds!
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Adalwulf on December 20, 2012, 07:17:18 am
If Xbows get weight nerf removed archers get it too. Since the weight nerf I've retired and ahve 2 athletics....want to know why? It's simple really because I now need to be able to fight in melee with a 0 slot weapon or use a horn bow and pick a decent 1h weapon and pay an upkeep every round that a relic from atlantis wouldn't be able to pay off.

2 mw tartar arrows = 16
2 mw bodkins = 14
mw bow = 2
mw horn bow = 3
mw rus bow = 3.5
mw longbow = 4

If you lower weight for xbows, then we archers get a 1 slot rus bow and longbow. Which is what should have been done about the kitting. Who needs to run when you can actually stand your ground in melee.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Templar_Steevee on December 20, 2012, 12:44:13 pm
I can see tons of QQ here...

IMO figthing with nerfs is almost useless, you have to get accostumed to it.

As an archer I know what nerfs means, and every single time when nerf happens i wonder what can i make to be still usefull in battle (after last nerf i just retire on lvl 33 and change my bulit), so pls stop whining and start playing.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Malaclypse on December 20, 2012, 12:47:01 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on December 17, 2012, 05:37:48 pm
(and yeah, 50 wpf is miniscule and still somewhat of a joke to call it melee ability).

All you need for melee ability is Power Strike. Proficiency may help, but it's by no means needed, especially for 2-hands.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Shaksie on December 20, 2012, 01:22:35 pm
Quote from: CalradiasPride_Torak on December 16, 2012, 03:41:05 pm
Please change the weight back to normal.
There is no point in kiting when you have a crossbow anyway
Nevar! People run away from me, having decent agility, there is indeed a point because most people that go on extensive chases get bored and find someone else to kill or they get far enough away so that they can reload.
Also, Arbalest users are quite a bit faster than me which I think is quite unfair.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Miwiw on December 20, 2012, 01:31:08 pm
A decent build for an Archer that can also fight in melee is also possible on level 30. It is a heavy hybrid of course, because you dont hit as hard as an Archer who is used to kite or stuff like that.

You know I'm far not the best player but that's not the point to care about. To add something to this archer discussion, this build is amazing for level 30 as you get 6 PD, 6 PS, 6 ATH, 6 WM and 5 IF. At the same time you can have about 160 wpf in Archery or share something in melee wpf as well. Go higher than level 30, be a proper Archer and infantryman at the same time!
(click to show/hide)

Anyway. The kiting "problem", let's call it like that, doesn't even exist with Archers only. Sometimes there are situations that only ranged units are left over in a round at the end, and then infantry is simple not able to survive if they are getting shot by some Archers and Crossbowmen at the same time (that doesnt mean infantry cannot win, you know!).
I do not support any nerf or any buff and would have never made the bow/xbow/bolt/arrow weight more heavy. I played Archer for half my gens (23 on my main in total) and 5 as Crossbowman.

I see it like Steevee, that's also why I usually retire each gen, not only to adapt to "new changes" but also to have more fun with different builds.
Anyway, the devs decide and until now they did a good job, imo.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Shaksie on December 20, 2012, 01:37:12 pm
Quote from: Adalwulf on December 20, 2012, 07:17:18 am
Who needs to run when you can actually stand your ground in melee.
Imo an archer would not be an archer if they preferred to chop rather than shoot. An archer should and always will be worse than a pure melee character at melee so many would feel the disadvantage they carry. I think many archers would be inclined to run off and search for help/bore the enemy to death rather than fight them regardless of the difference between their melee capabilities.
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Rumblood on December 20, 2012, 05:07:15 pm
Quote from: Malaclypse on December 20, 2012, 12:47:01 pm
All you need for melee ability is Power Strike. Proficiency may help, but it's by no means needed, especially for 2-hands.

Oh, is that why 2 handers are crying about the xbow weight? Because they don't need wpf in their PRIMARY weapon and can place it into xbow instead? Now they are mad that they can't kite too?  :rolleyes:

Let's see this play out. Give Rohypnol a 2 hander and 1 wpf. Give Galgorth the same 2 hander with 130 wpf and see how well Rohypnol (#1 rank dueler) does against Galgorth (#3 rank dueler). If they break even, I'll concede your idea that wpf doesn't matter. But if Rohypnol loses 5 of 9 duels are more, then you can concede that you are full of it.  :idea:
If you don't like those two, we can go with San and Cyranule in their favorite weapon (no shield).
Title: Re: Change Crossbow and Bolt Weight Back to Normal
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on December 21, 2012, 10:20:49 pm
Whoever plays on EU might know me as an annoying bundle of sticks dedicated xbower and I've been that for most of my generations. While it was great with the old weight of all kinds of xbows and steel bolts its OK now with the new, additional weight. It takes some time to adapt I got to admit but it works just fine.

As long as you still got a good amount of teammates alive I run towards them if I'm engaged in melee because I'm not really good at melee and can serve my team better alive and shooting. If I'm one of the last I'm dropping my gear and fight with a 1h weapon, sometimes even make it out alive.
You can always pick up your stuff again if you stay alive, just remember where you dropped it. Most of the times nobody will take it because I use 2slot xbow and bolts and hardly anybody has 3 free slots.

Although I would not complain if weight was reduced a bit I think its just fine, works for me, even with armor weight of ~20 + ~ 11 weapon weight.