cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 02:57:49 am

Title: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 02:57:49 am
Today, battle Apostates VS Greys (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1809)

Its been discussed before a lot, and it is very clear that you are not allowed to block your flags with equipment.
We all now it, and i say we draw the line here, the excuse "we didn't know" or "we removed it later in the battle" should not be sufficient anymore.

The side of tsibtin (grey order) was knowingly ignoring this rule, after adressing it we got a nice respons from quentry:

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Now off course i made screenshots, let them speak for themselves:

A sidenote to start with, this was their last flag at the time this was constructed there.

(click to show/hide)



I am not requesting for bans, but i think the public is allowed to see how the grey roster plays their battle.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 16, 2012, 03:01:54 am
Disgusting.
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Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Vovka on December 16, 2012, 03:02:54 am
(click to show/hide)


 So u can use it even if flag under KC


You lost because u could not protect ur own spawn point  :wink:
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Anhy on December 16, 2012, 03:03:18 am
No
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 03:09:50 am
Another sidenote, in the post i say that the only admin in the battle also responded slow, thats not aimed at khorin personally.
He is an admin on the crpg servers, and i don't think its his responsibility to interfere in strategus battles.

He did at some point ask the grey order roster to remove what they made, and they listened.
Khorin did a good job, but it shoulnd't depend on an admin that happens to be in the battle, since a lot of battles don't have admins in it.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 03:12:10 am
I was there playing on Grey side. When I eventually noticed my name in caps repeatedly in chat the situation was already over(I was focusing on my own stuff and most can testify that I spent a lot of time doing longer flanking runs). I checked it with the admins on irc, and I was told that around is okay. The ones on top were destroyed.

Besides, you had an admin on the Merc team aswell.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: polkafranzi on December 16, 2012, 03:12:14 am
No

Yes.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 03:13:39 am
(click to show/hide)


 So u can use it even if flag under KC


You lost because u could not protect ur own spawn point  :wink:

That is a screenshot after you destroyed the consite on top of the flag (or before).

I don't care about not winning, its about the obvious cheating that happened.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Shemaforash on December 16, 2012, 03:18:42 am
That is a screenshot after you destroyed the consite on top of the flag (or before).

I don't care about not winning, its about the obvious cheating that happened.

This one is actually before, afterwards (about 5 minutes later) there was a construction site above the flag, I removed it after one minute and then there never was a con site above the flag again, so I don't understand the problem. Because under that 1 minute you were never close to the flag, at least not with more than one person.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Anhy on December 16, 2012, 03:20:06 am
I think. you team lose this batlle. But you have very hard Batrudinov of your ass.
Cry more cry, skill players, top playes of crpg and strategus.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 03:23:25 am
Can only refer you to phils post shema.

Im not sure about when the flag do and when they don't work, i know from the past that ladder and siegetowers were used for it.
Jamming 5-6 consites on and around it is wrong no matter how you look at it.


I think. you team lose this batlle. But you have very hard Batrudinov of your ass.
Cry more cry, skill players, top playes of crpg and strategus.

Dude, im going for clear rules that can be enforced, i don't post to whine, i post for progress of the mod.
If a bug or cheat has been found or exploited i will post it on the forum, and despite all the "whiner whiner" comments i still haven't found a reason not to display these things on this forum.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Shemaforash on December 16, 2012, 03:25:50 am
I am in no way responsible for what they do though, I'm just "neutral" in this case and I don't approve of cheating in any way
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 03:28:16 am
I am in no way responsible for what they do though, I'm just "neutral" in this case and I don't approve of cheating in any way

Shema shema shema  :mrgreen: Not pointing my finger to you. I have no idea which of the guys on that roster placed the consites.
That was no reason though for me not to post this.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Cepeshi on December 16, 2012, 03:28:38 am
What would you expect? They said they are quitting strat, how else would they do it than the Grey way?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Strudog on December 16, 2012, 03:42:24 am
multiple times i had to destroy construction sites to get to that flag. ONCE A GREY ALWAYS A CHEAT!!!
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Shemaforash on December 16, 2012, 03:44:08 am
I took some screenshots just keeping general control of the area though...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 03:46:57 am
The odd thing is that I could've sworn I destroyed the construction site on top of the flag. And a minute or so later, Shema said he had destroyed it. I wonder if you just stood next to me and got the last hit or did someone throw another one after I destroyed it?

Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Abay on December 16, 2012, 03:48:59 am
Vovka's side always cheats and it is allowed to his side. He can change times of battles, cheat in strategus, use many keys for his side for like 2 years idk. I am not shocked at all. And Vovka must thanks to chadz again like he did many times
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Shemaforash on December 16, 2012, 03:59:22 am
The odd thing is that I could've sworn I destroyed the construction site on top of the flag. And a minute or so later, Shema said he had destroyed it. I wonder if you just stood next to me and got the last hit or did someone throw another one after I destroyed it?

Possibly someone threw another one, I walked away after but if not we both destroyed it x)
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Araxiel on December 16, 2012, 04:43:12 am
So, it is a possibility that more construction sites had been placed and got destroyed by the attacking side.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on December 16, 2012, 04:51:34 am
If so, it was there for max a minute before Shema(who was fighting for the Greys) destroyed it(flag was safe during this period). Could simply be one guy who had missed it when I said that I'm destroying it in TS and placed another one after I destroyed the first.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Rebelyell on December 16, 2012, 05:05:58 am
Faction Powergaming and Politics.

2 worst things that can happen to any game.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Loki on December 16, 2012, 05:47:58 am
The problem is that one side is constantly cheating and exploiting game mechanics and the admins do nothing.  This has been going on for 2 years now.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Quentry on December 16, 2012, 08:16:51 am
Today, battle Apostates VS Greys (http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=battlesparticipated#!?page=battledetail&id=1809)

Its been discussed before a lot, and it is very clear that you are not allowed to block your flags with equipment.
We all now it, and i say we draw the line here, the excuse "we didn't know" or "we removed it later in the battle" should not be sufficient anymore.

The side of tsibtin (grey order) was knowingly ignoring this rule, after adressing it we got a nice respons from quentry:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



Now off course i made screenshots, let them speak for themselves:

A sidenote to start with, this was their last flag at the time this was constructed there.

(click to show/hide)



I am not requesting for bans, but i think the public is allowed to see how the grey roster plays their battle.

(click to show/hide)
bla bla if that  proposition is proof of my blame or blame of greys... you are fool (i'm not grey and my words isn't their point of view, is that?)
Sorry for insulting
(click to show/hide)
and again sorry. I have done bad thing  :cry:
P.S. and i think there will be shitstorm  :twisted:
   
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: _RXN_ on December 16, 2012, 10:06:44 am
I joined the battle as spec at the end and i saw that those construction sites were placed around the flag, not on the flag. Only once someone missed and threw one CS on that flag, but some defenders immediately broke it. On the screenshots you can see the time and that the flag was under CS only for a few minutes during which defenders broke that CS.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: BASNAK on December 16, 2012, 10:15:20 am
They were inspired by DaveUKR :D
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Abay on December 16, 2012, 10:47:36 am
They were inspired by DaveUKR :D

and, the problem is solved  :lol:
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: naduril on December 16, 2012, 11:06:00 am
And the only way Mercs and all other whiners can win - to make battle time as late as possible that defenders don't show up.

You guys are disgusting slightly more than fully.

Whine always, when lose. Try to fight in prime time and no tricks would be needed to kick your slimy asses.

Fu. Playing with you and against you always make me feel that I need to wash my hands. But as I read this thread and understood that I want to go to shower again.

Why are you soooooo disgusting? Don't answer. That's rhetorical.

P.S. You will never get a respect and a play on your rules while you shit on common sense and show the respect to your opposites.
Start minus. I don't care.

Upd:
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 11:22:46 am
And the only way Mercs and all other whiners can win - to make battle time as late as possible that defenders don't show up.

You guys are disgusting slightly more than fully.

Whine always, when lose. Try to fight in prime time and no tricks would be needed to kick your slimy asses.

Fu. Playing with you and against you always make me feel that I need to wash my hands. But as I read this thread and understood that I want to go to shower again.

Why are you soooooo disgusting? Don't answer. That's rhetorical.

P.S. You will never get a respect and a play on your rules while you shit on common sense and show the respect to your opposites.
Start minus. I don't care.

Upd:
(click to show/hide)

Don't want to be a huge turn off for you but grey is the attacker in both of those battles.
We didn't attack until this morning mate ;)


Everything up untill 1 AM is primetime for me, i won't be in bed then anyway, and i never have a problem getting a full roster at that time,

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Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Razzer on December 16, 2012, 11:26:02 am
DaveUKR spotted.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Kanclerz on December 16, 2012, 11:37:30 am
Yeeeeeesss yessss yessss, we always cheating and using 1 000 000 cd-keys. I play at 7 computers at this same time and kill all. Yeeeeeeeee, cool story Haboe.
When you and your friends from Coalition and Mercs throwing ladder at your spawn and cover flags. This is okay? Are you crazy.
Your side first using covering flags. Think about what you're doing and just cry on the forum.
This is only game. They attack the bandits at night because during the day you would not have won.

THANKS FOR ITEMS, we use them well to defend our lands :)


Funny video material for all
History of this battle Hero -  Gingerpusyy after battle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_zAZxUEses&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: _RXN_ on December 16, 2012, 11:41:19 am
Haboe, i think these two attack were made to block your armies, to avoid another morning battle  :wink:
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 11:44:27 am
Kanclerz, i posted here with clear evidence of the players in the GO roster cheating.

I haven't mentioned multiaccounting once, for some reason neither side can let go of that, but just keep that out of this topic? You've had enough BS about that, i see no reason why you are bringing it up again?

As for the vid... i can only feel pity for you, but ill send ginger the link, to show him you all still take the effort to confirm his presence in crpg.


Haboe, i think these two attack were made to block your armies, to avoid another morning battle  :wink:

So, they make 2 attacks in the middle of the fucking night to avoid a late night battle?
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Rantrex on December 16, 2012, 11:46:19 am
The problem is that one side is constantly cheating and exploiting game mechanics and the admins do nothing.  This has been going on for 2 years now.

Wrong.

Both sides are cheating a lot worse way than you could imagine. '(requires some heavy thinking to understand)'
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: naduril on December 16, 2012, 11:47:14 am
Kanclerz, i posted here with clear evidence of the players in the GO roster cheating.

I haven't mentioned multiaccounting once, for some reason neither side can let go of that, but just keep that out of this topic? You've had enough BS about that, i see no reason why you are bringing it up again?

As for the second vid... i can only feel pity for you, but ill send ginger the link, to show him you all still take the effort to confirm his presence in crpg.


So, they make 2 attacks in the middle of the fucking night to avoid a late night battle?
Haboe, stop shitposting already. Enough! Look my post again! All the attacks at Tshibtin were SO late that defenders roster was fullfilled with problems. But I know, Mercs are Pro's that dont lose. Bla bla bla. You shitposting as if you were Ginger.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: _RXN_ on December 16, 2012, 11:48:24 am
Haboe, if they wanted to win, and not just to block, they would have attacked with a larger number of troops, no?  :P
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 11:50:35 am
Naduril, i use normal language, i make a normal post to report cheating, i don't ask for bans or anything that could disadvantage GO because of their cheat.

I am keeping it civilized and for some reason You and some other drz-grey members react so violently on a truth being exposed that you turn this into shitposting. Im asking to keep past mistakes of your faction out of the picture, and you are the ones that bring it back into this topic.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 11:51:52 am
Haboe, if they wanted to win, and not just to block, they would have attacked with a larger number of troops, no?  :P

If they had enough troops in that area to wipe us out of there then yes, they would have done that on a normal time. For some reason they don't attack us during their primetime, and continue on defending that village.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: BASNAK on December 16, 2012, 11:53:40 am

History of this battle Hero -  Gingerpusyy after battle[/u][/b]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_zAZxUEses&feature=youtu.be

That pretty much sums up how I imagine most large clan leaders to be like in Strategus these days :D
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Falka on December 16, 2012, 11:55:18 am
Haboe, stop shitposting already. Enough! Look my post again! All the attacks at Tshibtin were SO late that defenders roster was fullfilled with problems.
It was late for you, for west and central Europe it was prime time or slightly after primetime.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Zaharist on December 16, 2012, 11:56:54 am
Hey mercs. Thread needs more drama.
Please ask Pussy what to do nextime u try to start new forum tearfall.

I remember times (first Strat and the begginning of 2nd) when Mercs shouted on every corner that they were the only faction that had no defeats (frankly, it wasn't 100% correct). Afterwards they had some fights. Real fights. Since then mercs can't stop crying. 


The problem is that one side is constantly cheating and exploiting game mechanics and the admins do nothing.  This has been going on for 2 years now.
:lol: love this guy!


You and some other drz-grey members react so violently on a truth being exposed that you turn this into shitposting.

Know why? I'm pretty sure that almost all drz-grey guys are fed up with your merc's truth being exposed... since DaveUKRs first rage-cry topic about being banned during the siege by DRZ side.  :lol:

Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: _RXN_ on December 16, 2012, 11:58:53 am
Haboe, why do they have to deprive themselves of the natural protection that gives them the village and attack you in the open field? :) Once again, to prove that these attacks were made for blocking, look at the numbers, to attack someone you need a 1/3 of troops of the attacked army.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Zaharist on December 16, 2012, 12:00:32 pm
The problem is that one side is constantly cheating and exploiting game mechanics and the admins do nothing.  This has been going on for 2 years now.

I wonder how the hell can u say that admins do nothing...
What should they do? Ban all your enemies except those 2-3ppl clans u can win? Or give you +100hp boost in every battle to give you some chances?
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Zaharist on December 16, 2012, 12:03:02 pm
Haboe, why do they have to deprive themselves of the natural protection that gives them the village and attack you in the open field? :) Once again, to prove that these attacks were made for blocking, look at the numbers, to attack someone you need a 1/3 of troops of the attacked army.
Oh come one!
Let them think that Greys are going to wipe 'em out of this area. Let them all come to these battles in "prime time or slightly after primetime"
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 12:03:18 pm
So far i have seen no one deny this cheat and a lot of ppl ignoring it and continuously dig up past mistakes, cheats and whatnot.

Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Dalhi on December 16, 2012, 12:03:41 pm
Haboe, why do they have to deprive themselves of the natural protection that gives them the village and attack you in the open field? :) Once again, to prove that these attacks were made for blocking, look at the numbers, to attack someone you need a 1/3 of troops of the attacked army.

I am sure that Haboe will appreciate that you enlighten him, it would take some for him to figure it out on his own  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 12:05:26 pm
Oh come one!
Let them think that Greys are going to wipe 'em out of this area. Let them all come to these battles in "prime time or slightly after primetime"

Im know i am attacking a village, natural advantage for the defenders. Then why wouldn't i fight in my primetime?
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: autobus on December 16, 2012, 12:06:09 pm
So someone placed the CS on top of flag, it was immediately reported and destroyed by the side that placed it.
What's the big deal and what's the purpose of this thread other than yet another witch hunt with massive whine on top?
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Kanclerz on December 16, 2012, 12:06:34 pm
Haboe, it's a very simple situation - your side is too weak to win.
How many battles your side cover flags at ladders?? I remember these 7 battles.
You thought that bans breaking us? No, we have many recruits from Native and Napoleonic Wars.


Look this
"always fair play" Mercs
old images from September
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visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on December 16, 2012, 12:10:28 pm
No offence but how's that different from Mercs dropping a lot of ladders on spawn in open field battles ?
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Kanclerz on December 16, 2012, 12:12:47 pm
On Coalition and Mercs open field battle.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: _RXN_ on December 16, 2012, 12:13:43 pm
Quote
No offence but how's that different from Mercs dropping a lot of ladders on spawn in open field battles ?

Chagan_Arslan, because when it's done by Mercs, it's a tactical move, but when it's done by Grey, it's an exploit/cheat .  :P
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Zaharist on December 16, 2012, 12:14:18 pm
So far i have seen no one deny this cheat and a lot of ppl ignoring it and continuously dig up past mistakes, cheats and whatnot.
I'm glad you want to keep it civil, but..

The main mistake of the past is making forum threads like "these guys cheat".
You know the community, you know about attitudes, you should understand that such topics will never be civil.

If you want to solve flag-CS-cheats, grab your evidences, PM to one of Grey's leader (I'm sure, you know that they are the few who can keep it civil) and those admins/devs, who can solve this problem.

But it's not your aim - solve it civil. Your aim is to "expose the trouth" about evil non-stop cheating UIF = start the drama.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 12:17:33 pm
Im starting to repeat myself here so last time im saying it, i don't care for bringing things out of the past into this topic.
I have no doubt that both sides can come up with screenshots variaating from 1 player exploiting a bug on their own to a complete team cheating their hearts out. Im not gonna participate in a shitposting contest like that. I showed you the cheat that happened last night, involved party's have shared they view on it in the earlier pages, and if players that weren't even in the battle want to start shitposting, go ahead but keep it our of this topic.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 12:21:31 pm
I'm glad you want to keep it civil, but..

The main mistake of the past is making forum threads like "these guys cheat".
You know the community, you know about attitudes, you should understand that such topics will never be civil.

If you want to solve flag-CS-cheats, grab your evidences, PM to one of Grey's leader (I'm sure, you know that they are the few who can keep it civil) and those admins/devs, who can solve this problem.

But it's not your aim - solve it civil. Your aim is to "expose the trouth" about evil non-stop cheating UIF = start the drama.


(click to show/hide)

I am currently working on a finding a way to get a system like that working. I will go to cmp/ chadz with that, and see if something like that can be worked out.


No, im not here to shitpost, and im not keeping this among me and the grey order leaders. They know perfectly  well that what happened is cheating, and though its unlikely that they planned to do that, it happened in their roster. I talk to GO leaders, 3 players know about it, i put it on the forum, half the strat community reads about the cheat, and hopefully knows not to repeat that.


Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Anhy on December 16, 2012, 12:27:16 pm
RHAHHAHAHAH
Nice video
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on December 16, 2012, 12:31:04 pm
Haboe can you point me to a thread with strategus rules and more specifically to a point with construction sites ?
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 12:33:27 pm
Haboe can you point me to a thread with strategus rules and more specifically to a point with construction sites ?

The only written rule for strat is the common sense rule. I want to help change that.

It has however been mentioned before that covering up your spawnpoints with equipment is now allowed (can check some thread for you, not sure if i can find it, gimme a minute ^^)

EDIT:

that was fast, its in the common sense rule:

Although there are no set strat rules, the common sense rule obviously also goes for this.
If people use ladders and stuff to basically bug flags they can expect to be banned for a while and by a while I mean at least the time it takes to randomly respawn you on the eu side without troops.

Rule of thumb: If it is obvious exploiting as in an unfair advantage for your team and ruining the fun of everyone else - don't do it.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: naduril on December 16, 2012, 12:45:08 pm
The only written rule for strat is the common sense rule. I want to help change that.
This.
And this:

Everything up untill 1 AM is primetime for me, i won't be in bed then anyway, and i never have a problem getting a full roster at that time,


Attacking at midnight during workdays I hardly say is primetime for anyone except UK and who doesn't need to get to work at the morning. And at 4 am Moscow time = Midnight for London. Well. Nice prime time. Good for you.

Now it's clarified for me what you want.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: serr on December 16, 2012, 12:46:52 pm
This.
And this:
Attacking at midnight during workdays I hardly say is primetime for anyone except UK and who doesn't need to get to work at the morning. And at 4 am Moscow time = Midnight for London. Well. Nice prime time. Good for you.

Now it's clarified for me what you want.
And that is why we need fixed nighttime for EU zone.
Noone have to attack at time comfortable for opponent. You can't blame your enemy for that, as well as they can't blame you for attacking too early when most of their players are at work. And it clearly creates problem which can be fixed only by game mechanic changes.
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: bagge on December 16, 2012, 01:02:06 pm
Funny video material for all
History of this battle Hero -  Gingerpusyy after battle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_zAZxUEses&feature=youtu.be

That video just cracked me up. +1 :lol:
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Harpag on December 16, 2012, 01:04:15 pm
(click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPCiW2xFKf4
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Tuetensuppe on December 16, 2012, 01:25:50 pm
So someone placed the CS on top of flag, it was immediately reported and destroyed by the side that placed it.
What's the big deal and what's the purpose of this thread other than yet another witch hunt with massive whine on top?

I joined the battle as spec at the end and i saw that those construction sites were placed around the flag, not on the flag. Only once someone missed and threw one CS on that flag, but some defenders immediately broke it. On the screenshots you can see the time and that the flag was under CS only for a few minutes during which defenders broke that CS.

(click to show/hide)



well remember to have a look in the right upper corner ;)
im just wondering how long 1minute can be and how often is "one-time" :)


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Flag cheat
Post by: Haboe on December 16, 2012, 01:26:03 pm
(click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPCiW2xFKf4

At last a grey with a response that made me happy  :mrgreen: No digging up dirt, no off topic bs, +1

Anyway, now involved party's have had the chance to respond, i don't see a further use for this topic to be open anymore (since that only brings the risk of off topic BS from the past)

Im gonna focus on figuring out how to get a clear set of rules for strat, a way to enforce those rules, and come with a suggestion to the devs.