cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 13, 2012, 03:52:59 pm

Title: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 13, 2012, 03:52:59 pm
Quote
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However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.
(click to show/hide)
-chadz

So, since Anders closed his thread and since the poll result was quite negative I figure someone should open a thread and finish the poll.

What it is:
This is what it is:
Quote
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-Kinngrimm
History:
Quote
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-Me.

Something chadz said: ...
Quote
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Random relevant threads:
http://bundle of sticksop-whining/
http://bundle of sticksrategus-enhancment-project/
http://bundle of sticksing-or-no/
http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/anti-uif-troop-collection-competition-(eu-dhirim-area)/

Please try to keep this thread somewhat civilized unlike what happened to the others, let's try and get a final decision on the matter.
Oh and I'm ending this poll the 25th, morning.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Haboe on December 13, 2012, 03:59:52 pm
Zlisch, topic is rather unclear, use quotes instead of spoilers ;)

I don't really care for it, if its done developing and works perfect i wouldn't mind it being implemented by the devs into the site (like what happened with the eye-candy thing strat look)
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 13, 2012, 04:02:51 pm
Zlisch, topic is rather unclear, use quotes instead of spoilers ;)

I don't really care for it, if its done developing and works perfect i wouldn't mind it being implemented by the devs into the site (like what happened with the eye-candy thing strat look)
Still need spoilers but added quotes to make it clearer.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 13, 2012, 05:07:30 pm
please make separated notes with informations instead of including them into quotes.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Casimir on December 13, 2012, 05:18:13 pm
Since when did we live in a democracy. If chadz didnt like it he would have banned it straight out. He will have said that to appease the public. Do not be fooled by the ploys of the dictator.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 13, 2012, 05:22:18 pm
I personally don't think tools that allow you to see what others in your faction see should be allowed.  If that's the case, then we should pack it up and turn this into a single player game.

If they want to make it easier to communicate what you see with your leaders, they can implement tools for that directly into strategus (like "officers orders" or a messaging system that doesn't require you to use the main c-rpg site).  Or allow a user to easily send a screen cap to their officers.

But I think that removing the need for people in the faction to communicate what they see to their higher-ups, is a bad thing.  It removes the fog of war even more.

And going one step farther, I whole-heartedly disagree with the dev's decision in strat 4 to allow fief information to be seen no matter how far away from the fief you are.  I think it should be like strat 3, you have to be relatively close to see fief information.

God forbid you'd actually need a scout or a messenger or a reason to use diplomacy for trading (or gathering information).
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Haboe on December 13, 2012, 05:23:35 pm
Still need spoilers but added quotes to make it clearer.

I meant like actual quotes, not pieces of text in an empty quote :P Wanna see in what context they are said, where and when they are said, and if its accurate what you quoted :)

If you make a topic combining other ppl's words make sure you do it like a sir  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 13, 2012, 05:30:38 pm
I meant like actual quotes, not pieces of text in an empty quote :P Wanna see in what context they are said, where and when they are said, and if its accurate what you quoted :)

If you make a topic combining other ppl's words make sure you do it like a sir  :mrgreen:
To much damn work, they can be found in the random links included, dig them up yourself.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: GuiKa on December 13, 2012, 07:12:16 pm
So, since Anders closed his thread and since the poll result was quite negative I figure someone should open a thread and finish the poll.

46.7% Against

53.3% For

It was positive =)
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 13, 2012, 07:15:54 pm
46.7% Against

53.3% For

It was positive =)

By a tiny majority...hardly a mandate to allow such programs as these to be openly allowed for use.  Especially considering how many strat players don't check these forums.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 13, 2012, 07:25:43 pm
46.7% Against

53.3% For

It was positive =)
Well, just saying but the vast majority of the ones that voted for it still considered the way you went by doing it completely unacceptable.
And actually that is wrong, 9.8% voted for a link to one of chadz posts, as in, voted randomly.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 13, 2012, 07:25:55 pm
Quote from: chadz
...
Second, it seems that clan relationships are deciding stances in this discussion. This is really not helpful at all. I know it's hard to do, but try to judge it from an objective point of view.

@Nessaj, I see your point, but I am just having a different opinion. I mean there are people sitting down and writing tools, extensions, for a game that many like to play, but has a crude UI, to make it easier to use. This is, in my opinion, awesome. I really love that. I maybe should have stated more clearly from the beginning that I like it when people do that, and I want to encourage it, not prevent it.

...

What I'm saying is, extending a game can be beautiful, and can really enrich the game as a whole. I always considered strat a community project, believe it or not, and I'm always happy when people do stuff that I didn't have the time to do (shared view wasn't done because of server capacity).

as you provided some nice quotes so i thought this one also shouldn't be left out

EDIT:
Well, just saying but the vast majority of the ones that voted for it still considered the way you went by doing it completely unacceptable.
And actually that is wrong, 9.8% voted for a link to one of chadz posts, as in, voted randomly.
the different options for the poll in the other thread had been changed in the middle of that discussion, therefor the actual opinions behind those options to chose from may differ from the last stated options.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 13, 2012, 07:34:51 pm
as you provided some nice quotes so i thought this one also shouldn't be left out
Added
EDIT:the different options for the poll in the other thread had been changed in the middle of that discussion, therefor the actual opinions behind those options to chose from may differ from the last stated options.
Pretty sure he reset the vote counts then, if not, Anders shouldn't be allowed to make polls.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: highglandeur on December 14, 2012, 12:16:55 am
9.8% voted for a link to one of chadz posts, as in, voted randomly.
It wasn't random voting at all, it was pointing out that the mighty god said he would tell us what the fuck he thinks of it later but that so far he agreed for us to use it, so it was a yes until decided otherwise by devs, don't make a mockery of our donkey democracy you goat loving prophet of doom!
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Tanken on December 14, 2012, 12:27:12 am
I personally don't see anything wrong with it. It's a coordination tool more than anything. Perhaps one change I'd make to it is the highlighting of other tokens outside your proximity you can normally see, simply because that seems odd in a way. Other than that, seeing your troops, and ally troops moving and all that jazz doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 14, 2012, 04:49:47 pm
EDIT:the different options for the poll in the other thread had been changed in the middle of that discussion, therefor the actual opinions behind those options to chose from may differ from the last stated options.

Yes and No. I only added in the chadz Post but didn't change the meaning of the other 3.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Aderyn on December 15, 2012, 02:31:43 am
It should be allowed and added as a standard tool for everyone. (after proper beta-testing)
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Hoppster on December 15, 2012, 02:51:45 am
the options on this poll are pretty stupid
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on December 15, 2012, 03:18:43 pm
Should we Cut Zlisch Tongue?
lmfao so many people talking about this tool whereas they don't even know half its feature. Anyway last word goes to chadz and you can all go fuck yourselves
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 15, 2012, 03:20:04 pm
Should we Cut Zlisch Tongue?
lmfao so many people talking about this tool whereas they don't even know half its feature. Anyway last word goes to chadz and you can all go fuck yourselves

Quote
However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.
-chadz.
That's chadz word, Cosmos go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on December 15, 2012, 08:58:27 pm
I don't see anything wrong with it, really. It does give the user an advantage, yes, but technically it's just systematizing (lemme just throw that word around w/o knowing what it means) what can already be done informally. Person A can just tell person B who/what he sees. The information is still available to person B, it's just a pain in the ass to get it.

At least, I think that how it works. Fuck strat.

It actually sounds like something that should be implemented in strat officially. Shared LOS between faction-mates? Yeah buddy!
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 17, 2012, 04:22:02 pm
Bump.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Turboflex on December 17, 2012, 06:12:05 pm
I personally don't think tools that allow you to see what others in your faction see should be allowed.  If that's the case, then we should pack it up and turn this into a single player game.

If they want to make it easier to communicate what you see with your leaders, they can implement tools for that directly into strategus (like "officers orders" or a messaging system that doesn't require you to use the main c-rpg site).  Or allow a user to easily send a screen cap to their officers.

But I think that removing the need for people in the faction to communicate what they see to their higher-ups, is a bad thing.  It removes the fog of war even more.

And going one step farther, I whole-heartedly disagree with the dev's decision in strat 4 to allow fief information to be seen no matter how far away from the fief you are.  I think it should be like strat 3, you have to be relatively close to see fief information.

God forbid you'd actually need a scout or a messenger or a reason to use diplomacy for trading (or gathering information).

Strat has enough tedious micromanagement already, you seriously want more? I spent an hour overhauling a single fief's inventory yesterday.

I am really glad players like dodnet and kinngrimm are working on enhancing the strat GUI cuz we know the devs don't always have the time or inclination too, and the GUI still has a long way to go.

Obviously it's not great if some limited circle of people have access to an enhanced GUI which gives them advantages, cuz strat is a competitive game, but it's also a beta and when dodnet & kinngrimm's stuff is more polished hopefully the devs can integrate it into the regular webpage.

Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 17, 2012, 06:21:22 pm
Having a GUI that one person can use to control everything the faction members below him do, will add more micromanagement to the game, not less...

That's the whole point of delegating tasks and responsibilities to people.

So you want to be able to not only tell one of your underlings to "go here and do this" but you want to also be their eyes and ears while they move on the map, carrying out your orders?

That just seems, wrong....to me anyways.  You could literally have your AFK members (we all have) strategically camp parts of the map, going inactive for 2 months at a time, and you should be able to see everything they see, and essentially have a live view of what's going, when you're literally doing nothing to scout the area?  How "easy" are we trying to make this for the leaders?  Why not just allow them to issue orders for members and the member automatically starts doing it?

Managing your own inventory, or a fief's inventory is extremely painful, but this GUI doesn't address that, as far as I know, and if it does, that part would perfectly acceptable in my eyes.  Being able to automatically see what any of your members see is just lame as hell.  Sure it make's everyone's job easier, but so does being able to see fief information from 300,000 meters away, but that's lame as fuck too...

You know in single player warband, if you enable cheats, and then ctrl+click anywhere on the map, you automatically teleport there.  Sure it makes playing the game much easier, but is that what you really want?
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 17, 2012, 07:14:03 pm
(click to show/hide)
The viewer doesn't give you ALL the available data which the singled out player can see within his spotting range, the status of the party lightly/armed/heavy/shiny is not included as well the crates aren't shown as several other things. You can't engage with these additional dots on the map too as a player who has the party in his own spotting range. When we are done with the diplomatic system and alliances would be able to share their data, even less will be transmitted then only the color and the size of the party(not party count) will be shown(and perhaps the last spotted will be reduced from 18 to 6 hours  for that data.

Therefor there is still a need for communication and also some balancing idears are already built in. When this then is combined with the diplomatic system and people like those advantages through that, they then but are openly admitting alliances and by that they are also open for balancing that is aimed for large alliances to reduce somewhat their effectiveness, while at the same time you give every player a few of the advantages of account sharing and multi accounting, which by that then those real cheats( which majorly also are effective because of their economic power, no advantages there through strat viewer) would be deminished in comparison to those who use strat viewer(or later the implemented version)

I can't see what afk dudes see, they need to be logged in on the strategus website as well on the strat viewer website. When this would be implemented on strategus website. I will talk to Guika to get something done that frequently autorealod of the site would either shutdown the strat viewer account or something similar.

The leaders are also just people who sometimes what to have a life, so yes making it easier for them is as valid as for "only" faction members if you want to make a difference there, in my mind but i am looking for enhancements to reduce micromangement for everyone.

After the diplomatic system, we wil lfirst work on a graphical represantation of it and fine tune it, then later on another graphical layer which gives you an area of influence overview and then also it is planned to rework the Weapons/Armory tab. This all but will take a long time til lwe reach those points, as atm the main guys is only Guika, we are still looking for additional programmers out of the community to join our project, doesn't matter what or if a clan member, that would speed up our progress and may perhaps reassure you guys that there is no bad code would be involved as that guy may also work closely on our database and the serve side code(which btw is already published and open for everybody to read and implement on their own servers).
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: GuiKa on December 18, 2012, 07:22:21 pm
I don't see anything wrong with it, really. It does give the user an advantage, yes, but technically it's just systematizing (lemme just throw that word around w/o knowing what it means) what can already be done informally. Person A can just tell person B who/what he sees. The information is still available to person B, it's just a pain in the ass to get it.

At least, I think that how it works. Fuck strat.

It actually sounds like something that should be implemented in strat officially. Shared LOS between faction-mates? Yeah buddy!

It's like world of warcraft's addons for aggro meter or healing tools. At first Blizzard was against these and was banning people for using it before they understand it was a good thing.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 18, 2012, 09:15:00 pm
It's like world of warcraft's addons for aggro meter or healing tools. At first Blizzard was against these and was banning people for using it before they understand it was a good thing.
Here it's exactly the opposite, at first donkey crew sits back and allows you to use it, then hopefully they'll realize it's a bad thing and ban people who don't stop using it.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 20, 2012, 02:59:15 pm
Bump.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Harpag on December 20, 2012, 03:58:09 pm
No - because of fog of war.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 20, 2012, 04:55:53 pm
No - because of fog of war.
Fog of war is included indirectly through less information that is provided already.
When you look at other strategy games, Fog of war is only there where you wouldn't have your own troops, this is pretty much the same here. When i look at my map atm, besides where i am myself i only see additional information in 2 other areas on the map and that also not regularly but depending when those lads are logging into the strat viewer page and into strategus.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Harpag on December 20, 2012, 05:00:50 pm
Kinngrimm, just wait for official account sharing implemented in game. I think, that we should use only official tools, to avoid any unnecessary discussion and for equal opportunities.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 20, 2012, 06:08:09 pm
Kinngrimm, just wait for official account sharing implemented in game. I think, that we should use only official tools, to avoid any unnecessary discussion and for equal opportunities.
what do you think this project is all about ^^
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Noctivagant on December 20, 2012, 06:31:03 pm
official account sharing

You are being sarcastic right?
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Elmokki on December 22, 2012, 07:50:12 pm
It's least effort for the devs to let this stuff be. Any restrictions mean they have to be actually enforced and forbidding this stuff means coding in encryption - which probably isn't that much effort though.

Apart from the possibility to write a bot the current access to Strategus data and actions is relatively limited and really, at most people can write things that should probably be in in the first place. I'm all for shared line of sight inside faction at least - possibly even with ability to share your faction's FoV to other factions.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: GuiKa on December 23, 2012, 08:08:07 pm
It's least effort for the devs to let this stuff be. Any restrictions mean they have to be actually enforced and forbidding this stuff means coding in encryption - which probably isn't that much effort though.

Well as strategus datas are drew on client side there is not really any way to forbid people from reading/using it.

They would need to recode completely strategus to make tools like that just "hard" to make ...

I don't think you know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Osiris on December 23, 2012, 08:30:03 pm
looks like no is the popular answer
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Haboe on December 23, 2012, 09:25:30 pm
60 ppl voted no
59 voted yes....

This topic, and in particular its poll, says little...

Its 50/50 on yes/no ratio, i think the only sensible thing to do now is to stick with the word of the devs. Which is: Yes for now, and we can stop it anytime we want.
Title: Re: Should the Strategus Viewer be allowed?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 25, 2012, 02:51:43 pm
It is over.

No, not at all, and things like this never should. 45 (36.9%)

No, it was used for personal gain and the public wasn't made aware of it, even though it is now open it should be closed due to the "abuse". Other things which are announced and released
to all/not purely your own clan/alliance should however be 15 (12.3%)

Yes, however from now on these kind of things should only be allowed with an announcement at development start and with betatesters from various different groups. 31 (25.4%)

Yes, and you should be allowed to keep it for yourself, you made it, your choice. 31 (25.4%)


Devs I hope you'll make some form of rules based on the results.