cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: no_rules_just_play on December 10, 2012, 05:34:13 pm

Title: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 10, 2012, 05:34:13 pm

i know alot of people will not like this as pikes are hard enough already, but i think that pike formation are a little bit too easy to attack atm.

(dont kill me please)

when you charge at a pike wall now, you can just downblock all the pikes and run trough making the pike wall useless as they have to spread out and turn around to you. This is, in my opinion, not realistic or logical. in the medieval times, pikewalls were a good defence and shouldnt have to fall in pieces because one stupid shielder/onehander decided to run trough it (he would get a thousand pointy sticks poking trough his belly).

so here is my idea: why dont we make it that there is a chance that you are not able to block more than two stabs at the same time (offcourse the chance that you are not able to block the incoming attacks increases when the number of spears stabbing you at the same time goes up) this would mean that it is possible for pikers to keep their formation like shielders can with their shieldwall.

1 pike: 100% chance for block                                      /
2 pikes at same time: 50% chance for block                 /-> ok maybe some people wont agree with these numbers, but atleast they are a little bit more realistic, anyway you might increase the chance to
3 pikes: 25%                                                                /     block multiple attacks at the same time by increasing a certain skill (like weapon master or agility)
4 pikes: 12%                                                                /

OK I GET THAT THIS WILL GET THE GAME TOTALLY OUT OF BALANCE and that people will say it is op, but i really think this is the best option to make pikewalls more valid and more realistic. atm they are only good against cav, but no single cavalry player is so stupid to charge that wall. I also think there should be an option to make these pikewalls have a vulnerable spot (like making them very easy to flank or making it so that this only happens when the pikers are not moving)

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: zagibu on December 10, 2012, 05:51:53 pm

It's worth considering. Could also make it that each successful block goes back to ready animation even if held, so that in order to block the same direction twice, you would have to do the movements twice.

This will of course change the gameplay a lot, and awesome one against ten group fights will become a bit less awesome. But it would certainly buff one and two directional weapons, that's correct.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 10, 2012, 06:02:10 pm

Quote from: zagibu on December 10, 2012, 05:51:53 pm

it would certainly buff one and two directional weapons, that's correct.

shhhhh! dont say that! the twohanders can hear us! the walls have ears...

edit: its is indeed a buff, so i think there should be a way to only buff the pikewalls without buffing the pikes itself (as i think it doesnt need a change atm)

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Pentecost on December 10, 2012, 06:28:54 pm

Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 10, 2012, 05:34:13 pm

i think that pike formation are a little bit too easy to attack atm.

Don't know how it is over in EU, but I have seen massed pikes on defense supported by 2h and cavalry used to great effect in several major Strategus battles on NA. Your suggestion would make it so that attacking a pike formation head-on (which you may well have to do depending on the terrain and whether or not you're in danger of running out of time) is basically impossible unless you have a lot of shielders or ranged.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 10, 2012, 07:26:26 pm

Yeah I don't like the suggested idea, but I +1'ed for the sentiment.  On NA strat battles pikes and long spears kick ass for fighting infantry or cavalry. 

I think the only thing that should be done is to add an "up" stab on the pikes/long spears so that you stab overhand and towards their heads.  That way you can't just block down to always block a stab, you have to account for if it's overhand or regular stab.  I know Nord Invasion does this, and was discussed in this game previously, but was shot down.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 10, 2012, 07:29:00 pm

you cannot call these 'formations' a shieldwall is a formation, an archer line is a formation but a bunch of pikemen jumping back and forth, trying to stay away from the enemy and pressing the S key all the time isnt.

this is what happens in warband: at 1.50 the enemy cav smashes into the perfect formation. after that the pikemen have to leave their formation or switch to different weapons in order to survive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo)
 (sorry cant get youtube video working)

this is what it should be:

notice the fact that 'agibuilds' are their weak spot

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Kafein on December 10, 2012, 09:12:58 pm

Would maybe be balanced with noblock pikes.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 10, 2012, 09:19:10 pm

It'd be nice if all weapons were able to deal damage even if not being swung/stabbed, so if people run into your pike, they hurt themselves, also then you could code something like "bracing pikes" into the game.  I just don't see that happening though.

There's a lot that would make the game much better (but would require balancing) like brace-able polearms.  Or archers having spikes for cavalry defense, or cavalry being able to dismount before coming to a stop, or plate armor actually protecting against ranged (unless hit in the right spot), or against cutting weapons.  Or horses not running into walls (I can see them running off a cliff or into a pike wall if they were well trained, but I really can't imagine a horse running into a wall no matter how much training it's had).   Lots of things would make the game better and more realistic, but a lot of them are just not feasible to implement.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Teeth on December 10, 2012, 10:23:36 pm

Byzantium longspear squad approves!

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 10, 2012, 11:35:08 pm

Quote from: Teeth on December 10, 2012, 10:23:36 pm

Byzantium longspear squad approves!

no shit!

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: fdaslan on December 10, 2012, 11:54:32 pm

Wolves spear team approves!

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 11, 2012, 01:57:50 am

Quote from: fdaslan on December 10, 2012, 11:54:32 pm

Wolves spear team approves!

impossibru wolves only have superfast steel picks and a huscarl shield. dont try to fool me!

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Warham on December 11, 2012, 05:32:31 am

awesome idea

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Arathian on December 11, 2012, 06:42:15 am

As a bundle of sticks using a maul:

it is a good idea, upboated etc.

In the end of the day, pikes are supposed to be team weapons and I would support buffing their team functionality

HOWEVER my single request is to kind of nerf the roflcopterstab that pikes can currently do. It is both not really realistic and buggy (you can stab someone in places where your body isn't located at due to an animation weirdness)

So yeah, buff group use of pikes, nerf 1v1. Make them THE group weapon.

(click to show/hide)

And seriously, if you want to 1v1, you can always get a spear or a poleaxe, it isn't like there aren't choices.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Tydeus on December 11, 2012, 04:38:55 pm

Here's a better idea: Remove skill from the game, as it hinders fun. Here's how I imagine it works: First we're going to have to cut compatibility with the old client and move everyone to the beta, we don't need the dx7 guys anyway so w/e. Then all cmp has to do, is remove things like chambering, the ability to feint and hold swings and finally(I know it might seem like a bit much on this one), remove the ability to block, entirely.

What's fun is killing people and everyone blocking my attacks is clearly keeping me from having fun, therefore I conclude that this is the best possible way we can currently improve crpg and strategus.

(click to show/hide)

Pikes are strong enough as is, lets be realistic here. Pikes and long spears completely change the dynamic of melee combat to the point where many people believe they harm melee more than they harm cavalry. Not because pikemen get kills easily, but because it forces the melee to downblock constantly. The simple fact that you stated you already force your enemies to downblock clearly shows what the possible issues are here. You're complaining that this is a bad thing because your team is awful and can't figure out how to utilize the fact that their enemies are downblocking. You're not supposed to get a lot of kills, you're support you said as much yourself.

Edit:

(click to show/hide)

Please tell me you just didn't think about this enough before you posted it. You're asking that we make a team of literally nothing but pikemen, become a viable thing. You're asking that we allow 300 length weapons to do nothing but left click the entire time and their enemies could literally not do anything at all if there were 2 pikemen fighting them. Just remove your post, this is a horrendous, gamebreakingly bad idea that will never get implemented, even if you got 200 other crpg idiots that never read your post to +1 it.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Gurnisson on December 11, 2012, 04:45:25 pm

I'm a pikeman, and I would hate to see this change. Pikes are fine (except for the massive thrust-stun :twisted:)

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 11, 2012, 04:50:04 pm

Quote from: Tydeus on December 11, 2012, 04:38:55 pm

Here's a better idea: Remove skill from the game, as it hinders fun. Here's how I imagine it works: First we're going to have to cut compatibility with the old client and move everyone to the beta, we don't need the dx7 guys anyway so w/e. Then all cmp has to do, is remove things like chambering, the ability to feint and hold swings and finally(I know it might seem like a bit much on this one), remove the ability to block, entirely.

What's fun is killing people and everyone blocking my attacks is clearly keeping me from having fun, therefore I conclude that this is the best possible way we can currently improve crpg and strategus.

(click to show/hide)

Pikes are strong enough as is, lets be realistic here. Pikes and long spears completely change the dynamic of melee combat to the point where many people believe they harm melee more than they harm cavalry. Not because pikemen get kills easily, but because it forces the melee to downblock constantly. The simple fact that you stated you already force your enemies to downblock clearly shows what the possible issues are here. You're complaining that this is a bad thing because your team is awful and can't figure out how to utilize the fact that their enemies are downblocking. You're not supposed to get a lot of kills, you're support you said as much yourself.

before you start bragging such shit, you might atleast write something like  "TL;DR lol"  in front of your comment as you clearly didnt even take the minimum time to read it. now read it, and read it good, because this thread doesnt want pikes to have an additional crushtrough 'buff', the point is that i was opting for a way to make pikewalls a valid tactic in the game. this with for instance adding a chance not to be able to block more than one incoming attack (wich is totally logic). I STATED that the pikes dont need a buff and that they are good as they are, so that is why i opted for some sort of nerf that makes the 'crushtrough' (call it how you want, i dont call it crushtrough btw) not OP.
you might want to try to read the comments of other players that took the time to read the original post and see that they have given some very good ideas like making the pike not able to block or making the turnspeed nerf even bigger. this offcourse would only be like that for for instance the pike so we have atleast 1 weapon in the game that is very good at pike formations but very bad when alone or when people come up close. it will need hybrid builds to make this build valid (i dont call that op).

Quote from: Arathian on December 11, 2012, 06:42:15 am

So yeah, buff group use of pikes, nerf 1v1. Make them THE group weapon.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 11, 2012, 04:52:06 pm

Quote from: Gurnisson on December 11, 2012, 04:45:25 pm

I'm a pikeman, and I would hate to see this change. Pikes are fine (except for the massive thrust-stun :twisted:)

yeah i get that, having to change your build isnt really a nice idea to think about. thats why im only suggesting this. but i think its worth trying out (maybe adding a new polearm to the game to see how the community reacts to it before actually implementing this for the pike)

btw this 'unable to block multiple stabs' could also be added for twohanders and every other weapon that stabs. i am a long awlpiker and indeed i believe my weapon really doesnt need this. maybe only for the pike this might be a good idea. however very hard to implement (imagine all the pikers rage and imagine what happens when it seems like people dont like it and it is removed again => again pikers rage)

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Tydeus on December 11, 2012, 05:44:05 pm

Quote from: no_rules_just_play on December 11, 2012, 04:50:04 pm

before you start bragging such shit, you might atleast write something like  "TL;DR lol"  in front of your comment as you clearly didnt even take the minimum time to read it. now read it, and read it good, because this thread doesnt want pikes to have an additional crushtrough 'buff', the point is that i was opting for a why to make pikewalls a valid tactic in the game. this with for instance adding a chance not to be able to block more than one incoming attack (wich is totally logic). I STATED that the pikes dont need a buff and that they are good as they are, so that is why i opted for some sort of nerf that makes the 'crushtrough' (call it how you want, i dont call it crushtrough btw) not OP.
you might want to try to read the comments of other players that took the time to read the original post and see that they have given some very good ideas like making the pike not able to block or making the turnspeed nerf even bigger. this offcourse would only be like that for for instance the pike so we have atleast 1 weapon in the game that is very good at pike formations but very bad when alone or when people come up close. it will need hybrid builds to make this build valid (i dont call that op).

You're absolutely right, I didn't make any comments about anything other than your "crushthrough" suggestion and I certainly didn't state that pikes are already strong and thus not needing anything of the sort in the emboldened phrase.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on December 11, 2012, 07:13:19 pm

Shielders define the lines -> pikes/2hlolstab support the shielders -> archers shoot enemy support -> cav kill anyone not in the line.

That is strategus.

 No where in this will a pike wall be Effective, they will just get shot.

Note: The formation assumption is made that the team is fighting as a unit

Not seeing the benefit other than the current pike support role and 1v1 would be buffed almost OP. Which it does not need in the above basic strategus formation.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Elindor on January 10, 2013, 06:10:37 am

You're video in the other thread shows that yes, pikewalls were harder to get through, but it ALSO shows just how unwieldy pikes are and just how in trouble a pikeman would be in close combat.

:arrow: Add the realism of pikewalls ** IF ** you add the realism that pikemen are not effective at close range combat.

With all due respect!  :wink:

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Shaksie on January 10, 2013, 07:21:40 am

To be honest I despise the notion of weapons that have less than 4 attack directions.
Why not just make the swings that you see fit less effective, rather than non-existent?

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 07:35:25 am

Quote from: Elindor on January 10, 2013, 06:10:37 am

You're video in the other thread shows that yes, pikewalls were harder to get through, but it ALSO shows just how unwieldy pikes are and just how in trouble a pikeman would be in close combat.

:arrow: Add the realism of pikewalls ** IF ** you add the realism that pikemen are not effective at close range combat.

With all due respect!  :wink:

indeed, thats why i and alot of other people mentioned: not being able to block

Quote from: Shaksie on January 10, 2013, 07:21:40 am

To be honest I despise the notion of weapons that have less than 4 attack directions.
Why not just make the swings that you see fit less effective, rather than non-existent?

swinging with a piker? no.
maybe a small wiggle with where you hit with the stick so you can hit horsemen in the face or tap infantery on their heads, but swinging like in warband is extremely gay

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 10, 2013, 11:11:15 am

This would fuck up the balance so bad, luls i can see i infront of me.. byz pike squad, will be like in the glory days of shogunate but then we had overhead longspears.

This wont work, pikes are already good enough, and i doubt there will ever be more formations than simple shieldwalls.

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 11:12:32 am

Quote from: Gravoth_iii on January 10, 2013, 11:11:15 am

This would fuck up the balance so bad, luls i can see i infront of me.. byz pike squad, will be like in the glory days of shogunate but then we had overhead longspears.

This wont work, pikes are already good enough, and i doubt there will ever be more formations than simple shieldwalls.

READ.THE.FUCKING.THREAD

nuff said

(click to show/hide)

no offence though

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 10, 2013, 11:19:09 am

Quote from: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 11:12:32 am

READ.THE.FUCKING.THREAD

nuff said

(click to show/hide)

no offence though

I.DID.AND.I.DONT.LIKE.THE.SUGGESTION

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 11:23:28 am

Quote from: Gravoth_iii on January 10, 2013, 11:19:09 am

I.DID.AND.I.DONT.LIKE.THE.SUGGESTION

ITS.CLEARLY.SAID.THAT.WE.DONT.WANT.A.PIKER.BUFF.WE.WANT.A.OVERALL.FORMATION.BUFF.WE.DONT.CARE.IF.THIS.MEANS.NERF.FOR.PIKES.LIKE.NOT.BEING.ABLE.TO.MOTHAFUCKIN.BLOCK

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 10, 2013, 01:19:39 pm

Quote from: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 11:23:28 am

ITS.CLEARLY.SAID.THAT.WE.DONT.WANT.A.PIKER.BUFF.WE.WANT.A.OVERALL.FORMATION.BUFF.WE.DONT.CARE.IF.THIS.MEANS.NERF.FOR.PIKES.LIKE.NOT.BEING.ABLE.TO.MOTHAFUCKIN.BLOCK

Ah well..
I think pikes are fine though and dont really need to be nerfed. Noone ever does formations so i guess this would only be a pretty big nerf to them..

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 01:28:37 pm

Quote from: Gravoth_iii on January 10, 2013, 01:19:39 pm

Ah well..
I think pikes are fine though and dont really need to be nerfed. Noone ever does formations so i guess this would only be a pretty big nerf to them..

that was the point: buff formations, nerf ninjas
even stronger, make ninja fighting with a pike impossible

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Shaksie on January 10, 2013, 04:38:39 pm

Quote from: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 07:35:25 am

swinging like in warband is extremely gay

Indeed, but it needs more directions :(

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: Angantyr on January 10, 2013, 05:23:35 pm

Encourage formation battle by adding the overhead stab animation to spears and pikes (historically correct, has also worked really well in other modules), meaning people have to upblock and downblock at the same time when charging a spearwall, and balance it and make it more realistic by removing the blocking and close range capability of said weapons (lolstabbing, cheesy backwards jump and stab).

Title: Re: pikewalls
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 10, 2013, 06:06:56 pm

Quote from: Angantyr on January 10, 2013, 05:23:35 pm

Encourage formation battle by adding the overhead stab animation to spears and pikes (historically correct, has also worked really well in other modules), meaning people have to upblock and downblock at the same time when charging a spearwall, and balance it and make it more realistic by removing the blocking and close range capability of said weapons (lolstabbing, cheesy backwards jump and stab).

still this wouldnt be realistic. you can still block multiple stabs with one block as long as the enemy stabs all with the same stab.
i have played with fire and sword and still it would be able to use this effectively, the formation should have to break almost immediatelly