cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Sandersson Jankins on December 04, 2012, 09:48:38 pm

Title: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 04, 2012, 09:48:38 pm
Hey guys, I'm just about to talk briefly about something that I'm sure is already clear to many, but perhaps some do not know.

Recently the Rondel Dagger was added into cRPG. Fantastic, I love me some daggers, and it's a very viable weapon for specific playstyles. I love that!

However, there's a problem. Here's the rondel dagger stats:
(click to show/hide)

Here's the long dagger (a very comparable weapon) stats:
(click to show/hide)


The big problem here lies with the rondel dagger's secondary mode, which allows the user to perform tri-directional attacks, and as far as I understand, uses pierce damage type. Now, with a faster base speed, and pierce damage type which is huge both for increased damage output and (I think?) less glancing. Least, the rondel seems to glance less than the long dagger.

Now, as I said before, I fucking love me some daggers. I'm glad that the rondel dagger is in the game with its current stats. However, it seems that there is absolutely no incentive to choose the Dagger, Long dagger, etc over the Rondel Dagger. If you use the Long Dagger, you'll do considerable less damage, especially on horizontal swings, you'll swing slower, all at the benefit of 10 more length- putting the Long Dagger at a still incredibly short 47 length. The length is simply not an important stat on such a weapon type, I would argue.


tl;dr: Keep Rondel Dagger as is, somehow buff/change Long Dagger, Dagger, and possibly Khyber Knife and Knife, although the last two weapons are entering into peasant-gear territory.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Latvian on December 04, 2012, 09:51:05 pm
i use long dagger cuz i got it masterworked and i use heirloom eye candy .
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Pentecost on December 05, 2012, 12:56:42 am
The best solution in my view to make both the Long Dagger and Rondel viable in different ways would simply be to remove the "can't block" property from the Long Dagger but leave it on the Rondel.

It makes little sense that you can block with a wooden stick, a torch, and a hammer but that you can't block with a weapon that would have been used in the off-hand to defend against attacks.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on December 05, 2012, 08:32:30 am
Quote from: Pentecost on December 05, 2012, 12:56:42 am
The best solution in my view to make both the Long Dagger and Rondel viable in different ways would simply be to remove the "can't block" property from the Long Dagger but leave it on the Rondel.

It makes little sense that you can block with a wooden stick, a torch, and a hammer but that you can't block with a weapon that would have been used in the off-hand to defend against attacks.

I think you're right on with that. Very good suggestion, 10/10 would implement
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Cup1d on December 05, 2012, 03:42:50 pm
Or add ''Cant parry'' to rondel dagger. Do not forget that our balance team like ''hard ways''...
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Tovi on December 05, 2012, 03:49:47 pm
The problem is the HUGE amount of pierce damage ! More than most of bigger weapons !
I mean, if a dagger has 30 pierce damage, what has 15/10/5 pierce ? A toothpick ?
That is properly insane.

How a dagger can inflict more damages than a sword ? Do you imagine that IRL ?
If someone strikes you at full power with a sword, the blade will transpierce the body and will destroy any bones in the way while a dagger will be stuck in the armor or bounce in a bone.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: ThePoopy on December 05, 2012, 04:57:58 pm
unusable with shield
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 05, 2012, 05:16:18 pm
Quote from: Tovi on December 05, 2012, 03:49:47 pm
The problem is the HUGE amount of pierce damage ! More than most of bigger weapons !
I mean, if a dagger has 30 pierce damage, what has 15/10/5 pierce ? A toothpick ?
That is properly insane.

How a dagger can inflict more damages than a sword ? Do you imagine that IRL ?
If someone strikes you at full power with a sword, the blade will transpierce the body and will destroy any bones in the way while a dagger will be stuck in the armor or bounce in a bone.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/realism-discussion/
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: oprah_winfrey on December 05, 2012, 05:40:17 pm
As far as I am concerned the daggers are only for looking cool on your belt or for fucking around. For this role, the long dagger is still the best because it looks the coolest. Using any of the daggers as your primary weapon is kinda silly, as you would be better off with a real weapon. Ex: steel pick>rondel dagger, espada>long dagger
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 05, 2012, 08:39:53 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on December 05, 2012, 05:40:17 pm
As far as I am concerned the daggers are only for looking cool on your belt or for fucking around. For this role, the long dagger is still the best because it looks the coolest. Using any of the daggers as your primary weapon is kinda silly, as you would be better off with a real weapon. Ex: steel pick>rondel dagger, espada>long dagger
The rondel daggers are actually good secondaries for agi based onehanders, I use an espada, if I'm certain my next hit won't be blocked and my target is using a slower weapon the second I swing I'll switch to my Rondel dagger, by the time the enemy is un-stunned I'll have my rondel unsheathed, and because of the tiny size and the sudden huge change in speed and my 181ish wpf I can pretty much always land a solid face-hit and either go for another if I expect to be able to hit a second time or switch back to my espada and block his next attack.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Silveredge on December 06, 2012, 09:54:05 am
I support being able to block with the Long Dagger.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Kafein on December 14, 2012, 12:51:40 pm
Daggers with blocking abilities would ruin the point of daggers.

Come on, you can already block with sickles and that sucks :(

I mean, my Yurt_The_Silent_Chief character is not at all awesome, not having to chamberblock everything.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on December 14, 2012, 09:41:29 pm
I say just lower the secondary mode's swing damage so it isn't quite as competitive with the 1 slot 1 handed weapons. Even if it lost 10 pierce damage from its swings, the thing might hit heavily armored enemies with more power than a +3 knife (28 cut swings).

As it currently is, the rondel is the ONLY dagger anyone would pick based on stats alone. If used correctly it is more effective than 1H weapons that cost 3000-4000g more. Rather than buff the other zero slot weapons, the rondel should be bumped down to where it belongs.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: oohillac on January 10, 2013, 10:18:51 pm
The Rondel is far more difficult to use on a moving target due to the length.  Having a slight advantage in reach for one-handed weapons provides a large advantage for usage (favouring the Khyber especially, that thing is long).  Longer weapons require less precision.

The Rondel can be easily S-keyed by the defender because the weapon is so short.  I have 8 Athletics and get more kills with the Khyber because of the length.
Title: Re: Rondel dagger vs Long Dagger and others
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on January 14, 2013, 06:14:36 pm
Rondel is an excellent siege weapon as it is less likly to get stuck on random crap that 2h and polearms swing through no problem. Basically evens the field, but that damage is seriously OP. Maybe keep the thrust, but a peirce swing? Common, 10 blunt damage max for this clam shucker.