cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Osiris on November 16, 2012, 10:57:28 pm

Title: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Osiris on November 16, 2012, 10:57:28 pm
so PC really and i mean really pisses me off. (all that jazz means anything that annoys me :D)


Feel free to unleash your rage on lots of random subjects here so we can all lol ^^


There are a few things in the papers last couple of days :D (UK)

1. The cabinet of parliament and leading companies should do more to get women into the top jobs! David cameron has been told to get his house in order!

not being funny but shouldn't the best person get the job regardless of sex? or should we promote women ahead of a more able male just so we don't seem sexist?

2. Immigration and young black crime (in london) . Dare to talk about these and your a racist!

On another note they are thinking about making dads army into a film! ofc lets turn the main character into a women because that makes sense!

Apparently your not allowed to point out to Americans or Brits on facebook that despite their hundreds of posts about servicemen defending our freedom it doesnt make it true ^^ in world war two yes, in the falklands yes. Iraq? no invading Iraq isnt defending my freedom and rights its extending our influence and power :D (not always a bad thing but not the same)


rant over :D (im english btw ^^)
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Franke on November 18, 2012, 01:11:46 am
Quote from: Osiris on November 16, 2012, 10:57:28 pm
The cabinet of parliament and leading companies should do more to get women into the top jobs

This is (at least kinda) funny as we have this discussion here in Germany, too. They are even talking about a quota to impose on companies by law...
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Laufknoten on November 18, 2012, 01:49:45 am
Political correctness is just another way to intimidate and enslave the people. It basically has the effect, that people back off from addressing social wrongs and injustice. It means the same like "just say something "wrong" and you're done, we'll take your job and your social status and make you look like a big asshole!" 
Now the PC is biased. It's way easier to say something wrong as a white, christian, heterosexual man than for example a poor illiterate black immigrant woman, because as a "white, christian, heterosexual man" you and your ancestors are responisible for everything bad that ever happend on this planet. In some peoples mind at least... 
 
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
Quote from: Laufknoten on November 18, 2012, 01:49:45 am
Political correctness is just another way to intimidate and enslave the people. It basically has the effect, that people back off from addressing social wrongs and injustice. It means the same like "just say something "wrong" and you're done, we'll take your job and your social status and make you look like a big asshole!" 
Now the PC is biased. It's way easier to say something wrong as a white, christian, heterosexual man than for example a poor illiterate black immigrant woman, because as a "white, christian, heterosexual man" you and your ancestors are responisible for everything bad that ever happend on this planet. In some peoples mind at least...

Women and minorities were literally enslaved for hundreds of years to the institution of the white man.  Affirmative action or "politically correct" sensibilities is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.  How do you expect that to happen if women are still being paid less for the same jobs, or funding for public education/healthcare/social services are garbage for poor, minority-filled districts.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Laufknoten on November 18, 2012, 02:23:14 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
Women and minorities were literally enslaved for hundreds of years to the institution of the white man.  Affirmative action or "politically correct" sensibilities is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.  How do you expect that to happen if women are still being paid less for the same jobs, or funding for public education/healthcare/social services are garbage for poor, minority-filled districts.
Okay Smoothrich, don't expect a reply now. I can tell that we have different opinions and believes, so let's just stay that way. I don't wanna get started because that would end in a dirty discussion and we got enough of them already.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Overdriven on November 18, 2012, 02:56:40 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
Women and minorities were literally enslaved for hundreds of years to the institution of the white man.  Affirmative action or "politically correct" sensibilities is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.  How do you expect that to happen if women are still being paid less for the same jobs, or funding for public education/healthcare/social services are garbage for poor, minority-filled districts.

Problem is it can easily become a bit stupid and swing the other way. I'm all for people being equal but when you can't describe someone as black but I'll call myself and others white...where does that make sense? My girlfriend is Indian, she's brown. I'm white. I work with a black Nigerian. All descriptive. Yes when you start using it as a racist insult that crosses the line but problem is people seem to think that kind of descriptive language in every day use is unacceptable when there's no malicious intent even there.

There was a recent case of a man being fired because he disagreed with gay marriages in churches and posted a comment about it on facebook or twitter (nothing offensive). Two lesbian women complained and he lost his job. Fortunately he took it to court and won but it demonstrates just how far the other way it can go.

Again if women stay in the job I'm happy for them to get equal pay but I can understand employers concerns when so many obviously have to leave jobs due to children. Of course this isn't always the case, and if they stay on they should be paid the same, but it's difficult because employing women can actually be a costly business for many companies. Fact is you have to cover them on maternity leave, pay their wages, find someone else to fill in who is willing for the 6 months whilst they are being paid to do no work (paying two people for 1 job) and then you have to welcome them back with open arms or if they like they can take those wages and just quit. But when it comes to things like fathers rights where the mother gets priority over the custody of children, leaving fathers out in the cold, there's little complaint except from those fathers who have been effected. Many women in this country seem to think that this is fair. Problem is there is a disparity both ways. Women may lose out in the work place (more so in specific occupations) but they gain in many other areas.

One of my fav tv examples of pcness is Modern Family. The two gay dads are trying to get their adopted asian baby into a preschool and they think they are guaranteed due to their diversity. But then a lesbian couple with a black child comes in and one of the mothers is disabled. It just highlights how ridiculous the system can be sometimes.

Quote from: Osiris on November 16, 2012, 10:57:28 pm
On another note they are thinking about making dads army into a film! ofc lets turn the main character into a women because that makes sense!

This is something which really hacks me off when they do this. It's like when the American's made a remake of the French film 'Taxi'. White, hetro, French dude get's turned into a black woman just because it's the US (Queen Latifah of all people) :|
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 18, 2012, 03:14:29 am
This again.. Can you keep your racist views for yourself, please?

And no, immigrants and people with different skin colour than you aren't responsible for your personal issues.

This post is directed to everyone who writes racist shit on these forums.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Overdriven on November 18, 2012, 03:16:50 am
Read the entire thread and I see no racist views  :|
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 18, 2012, 03:21:19 am
I've been warned twice because of racism, but I've used it as a tool against people that annoyed me at that moment. However, that's not how I feel but can recognize when people mean it for real.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Osiris on November 18, 2012, 10:35:00 am
sure but there are no racist posts? unless your one of those people who shout racism as soon as immigration comes up ^^.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Havoco on November 18, 2012, 10:55:00 am
Y'all racists!

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Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 01:43:38 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
Women and minorities were literally enslaved for hundreds of years to the institution of the white man.


Really? I would love to explain that to the white European eunouchs that served in the harrems of the middle east. The fact is that up until the 14th century, the most common slave owners were Arabs who are not white (at least, by most definitions). In addition, black slave owners were extremely common. As a matter of fact, it still is today. Most slavery today (and it is common) occurs in African countries. Mauritania outlawed slavery just in the 1990's and it is still extremely common there. Or how about we find the ex slaves of north America? Those with some basic history knowledge will know that plenty of them (about 80% of the original population) were deported to what would soon be known as Liberia, a then US colony. These slaves did, as their first act, enslave the local black population and use the plantation methods they learned in the US (that had been abolished after the civil war) to make a profit. Slavery was not abolished until the 50's and the apartheid, one of the worst in the world, between "American" blacks and the "locals" didn't end until the 80's, when a "local" black was elected.....which resulted in 3 civil wars funded by the US....which resulted in today's utterly abhorrent situation in Liberia.

So, for MOST of history, white people were, in fact, not the majority of the slave owners. They, for sure, aren't today.

Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
Affirmative action or "politically correct" sensibilities is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

I did not make any "mistake" in the past. In fact, since this is mostly a US thing, most Americans haven't either. That their grand-grand-fathers or, sometimes, even more than that, lived in a period with some segregational and, indeed, oppressive and racist laws, doesn't mean that their grand-grand children should compensate for the grand-grand children of people who were oppressed.

And, you know what? Let's accept your silly arguement and say "well, they were oppressed retroactively!". Good, so why are the ones who bear the cost of affirmative action the most East Asians? The numerical fact is that Chinese, who mostly came here as EXTREMELY poor essentially slave-labour, pay almost double to the cost of affirmative action than whites.. In fact, the Japanese faced one of the most massive discrimination campaigns in US history (yes, even worse than Jim Crow) during WW2 with the internment camps.

What does that mean? That the Chinese and Japanese aren't "human" enough? Maybe they aren't important enough as the precious precious black people you need to protect?

Or, to get back to whites, what about the Irish? Irish get to pay said shitty affirmative action programms as white Aglo-saxons. Did you know there was a massive slave trade of Irish? In fact, the late period slave trade traded more Irish than blacks. But hey, why bother about them? They were white and white people can't feel pain, right?

Since this is a big "fuck political correctness" thread, I will state my opinion, which is 100% not politically correct, I will never state it how it is in a non-internet debate, but I still think it is the truth.

The reason blacks and hispanics in the US are living shitty lives right now is not because their grandfathers were oppressed by "da man". The Chinese had the same and they progressed, sometimes within 1 generation. It is because black culture in general, and in the US specifically, is fucking shitty. It promotes thuggery, laziness. It is anti-intellectual, tribalistic and, indeed, extremely racist. Some of the most racist people you can meet in the US right now are not white, but probably black people living in bad neighbourhoods blaming everything on "crakas".

Gypsies in Europe have a similar situation. Their culture is as shitty as shitty gets. It is NOT genes because many "gypsies" intergrate into the European society and blend is as well as any other after they completely abandon their culture. But the ones that keep their culture "pure" (and many choose to) as seen as the worst scum, and rightfully so (for many reasons I won't go over here. Most that live in Europe know why). In fact, self-identifying gypsies that are intergrated are...well...non-existent. On the other hand, people with gypsy racial background are not that uncommon, even in the US.

Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.

So to have people treat people based on merit and ability rather than status from birth we should treat people based on status from birth rather than ability and merit cause liberal logic?

Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
How do you expect that to happen if women are still being paid less for the same jobs

That is a disgusting feminist myth. I will provide a ton of citation on said myth in a below post to not over-saturate this post (that is already probably too long).

Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
or funding for public education/healthcare/social services are garbage for poor, minority-filled districts.

Throwing money at a problem has fixed precicely nothing in the history of everything. Addressing the real issues, like the highly anti-intellectual stance of black and latino culture, would help more. But people like you would cry foul at such thing and would rather blame it on not enough "care", "money" or simply "racism" (whatever that means lately) rather than the elephant on the room.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 01:45:21 pm
CITATIONS FOR THE 72 CENTS FOR WOMEN PER DOLLAR FOR MEN EARNED BEING A FUCKING MYTH THAT NO ONE WITH HALF A BRAIN SHOULD LISTEN TO HERE

The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors.
The Department of Labor recently funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination.
http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it?
The Gender Pay Gap is a Complete Myth
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/
Gender pay gap is not what activists claim
http://wwww.examiner.com/x-22884-Canada-Politics-Examiner~y2010m2d22-Gender-pay-gap-is-not-what-activists-claim
Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/vickiwoods/7957186/Sorry-ladies-Im-not-worried-about-wage-gaps.html
Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal Pay
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/opinion/22Sommers.html?_r=1&hp
The Wage Gap Myth
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_wage_gap_myth.html
Don’t Blame Discrimination for Gender Wage Gap
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap.html
The pay inequality myth: Women are more equal than you think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa3pKN3XUKM&feature=youtu.be
Women Now a Majority in American Workplaces
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/06/business/economy/06women.html?_r=2
Labor force participation rate for men has never been lower.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/biggest-shock-fridays-payroll-report-sorry-men
Share of Men in Labor Force at All-Time Low
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/07/share-of-men-in-labor-force-at-all-time-low/?src=recg
Men earn 52% LESS than women for part time jobs
How to get this graph yourself from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
Women In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than Men
http://www.businessinsider.com/women-in-tech-make-more-money-and-land-better-jobs-than-men-2010-9
Female U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: study
www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedType=R
Female CEOs outearned men in 2009.
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10630664
Women between ages 21 and 30 working full-time made 117% of men's wages.
www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn an average of $27,000 a year. That's 8% more than comparable men.
http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Young-Women-Earn-More-159818705.html
Workplace Salaries: At Last, Women on Top
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
Young Women's Pay Exceeds Male Peers
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704421104575463790770831192.html
The 15 Jobs Where Women Earn More Than Men
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/03/14/jobs-where-women-earn-more-than-men/
women aged between 22 and 29 earn over £10 per hour on average, compared to men their same age who earn just under this amount.
http://www.womenintechnology.co.uk/news/young-women-earn-more-than-men--news-800761492
Young women now earn more than men in UK
http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2011/10/young-women-now-earn-more-than-men-in-uk/
The only chairwoman in the FTSE 100 index of biggest British companies, when asked about government efforts to force companies to make at least 25% of board member to be female said: "there's no real evidence to suggest women being on a board makes the companies any better – what we're doing here is forcing an experiment."
This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, Ph.D., examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedTy…
Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/03/15/optout.revolution/
This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home).
Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23413243
Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/06/13/dads.work/index.html
Research also shows that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-04-equal-parenting_N.htm
ABC News: “Is the Wage Gap Women’s Choice? Research Suggests Career Decisions, Not Sex Bias, Are at Root of Pay Disparity”
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/GiveMeABreak/story?id=797045&page=1&CMP=OTC-R
There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice
http://sify.com/news/women-stay-away-from-math-out-of-their-own-free-choice-news-scitech-kk1lubiiiee.html
Women In Science: No Discrimination, Says Cornell Study
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/women_science_no_discrimination_says_cornell_study-75984
Let’s be real about the lack of women in tech
http://www.businessinsider.com/lets-be-real-about-the-lack-of-women-in-tech-2010-10

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Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on November 18, 2012, 02:18:29 pm
Quote from: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 01:43:38 pm
racism

Are you fucking retarded or do you not have an excuse for such bad opinions?
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 02:28:53 pm
Quote from: idle on November 18, 2012, 02:18:29 pm
Are you fucking retarded or do you not have an excuse for such bad opinions?

Good god...did you even read what I wrote or did you just allow the indoctrination warning signs to kick in as soon as you read something that is even slightly honest?

Your response is everything that is wrong with modern society when it comes to these matters.


Edit: not to mention that

A) I never mentioned anything about race in relation to my arguements (except racial background for gypsies...which wasn't part of my arguement, but rather a side-note)

And

B) Everything that I mention is a citable fact. Facts are facts. They are neutral by the merit of being true. They are not liberal, conservative, racist or anti-racist. They might aid arguements of viewpoints but calling facts racist, as you did, is utterly fucking stupid.

The only "opinion" part in my response was about culture, which being culture is not about race making it, well, not fucking racist. You might argue that I have negative stereotypes about cultures, which would make me a bigot...but you probably can't even tell the difference.

Get a book.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Overdriven on November 18, 2012, 04:52:53 pm
Quote from: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 01:43:38 pm


Really? I would love to explain that to the white European eunouchs that served in the harrems of the middle east. The fact is that up until the 14th century, the most common slave owners were Arabs who are not white (at least, by most definitions). In addition, black slave owners were extremely common. As a matter of fact, it still is today. Most slavery today (and it is common) occurs in African countries. Mauritania outlawed slavery just in the 1990's and it is still extremely common there. Or how about we find the ex slaves of north America? Those with some basic history knowledge will know that plenty of them (about 80% of the original population) were deported to what would soon be known as Liberia, a then US colony. These slaves did, as their first act, enslave the local black population and use the plantation methods they learned in the US (that had been abolished after the civil war) to make a profit. Slavery was not abolished until the 50's and the apartheid, one of the worst in the world, between "American" blacks and the "locals" didn't end until the 80's, when a "local" black was elected.....which resulted in 3 civil wars funded by the US....which resulted in today's utterly abhorrent situation in Liberia.

Throwing money at a problem has fixed precicely nothing in the history of everything. Addressing the real issues, like the highly anti-intellectual stance of black and latino culture, would help more. But people like you would cry foul at such thing and would rather blame it on not enough "care", "money" or simply "racism" (whatever that means lately) rather than the elephant on the room.

Pretty much this. Slavery was common the world over. The major difference was that the British empire and others industrialised it on a scale not seen before. But in most cultures of the time it was pretty accepted. So it's all very well us going 'slavers disgusting people'. But to them, to the slaves (many of who lived in cultures that had enslaved people themselves), it was the norm of the time. And I find it hard to sit on a high horse and condemn people in the past for actions which were seen as normal then. Certainly modern day slavery still exists though and it isn't particularly the West who are involved.

I was going to make that point as well but couldn't be arsed to because I thought it was obvious. Money doesn't fix jack shit. The same reason why development agencies have to much money in poor countries. They can't spend it as fast as it comes in and it doesn't actually fix anything because it's more about social change and the resources needed to do that. Not just spending it on things which won't really help them if they can't help themselves.

Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 08:35:44 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on November 18, 2012, 04:52:53 pm
Pretty much this. Slavery was common the world over. The major difference was that the British empire and others industrialised it on a scale not seen before. But in most cultures of the time it was pretty accepted. So it's all very well us going 'slavers disgusting people'. But to them, to the slaves (many of who lived in cultures that had enslaved people themselves), it was the norm of the time. And I find it hard to sit on a high horse and condemn people in the past for actions which were seen as normal then. Certainly modern day slavery still exists though and it isn't particularly the West who are involved.

Aaaactually, percentage wise, slavery from the 15th-18th century (where most of the slave trade happened) was much lower than in the past (except for a small period of time in the early 14th century where the pope forbid slavery and then the Spaniards found the Carribean so he kind of went 'fuck it'). The big difference is that, unlike in the past, most of the slaves didn't come locally or from the surrounding areas but from far-away lands to be sold to far-away lands. Still, in Ancient Greece (where slave culture is one of the best recorded), slaves made up about 30% of the Athenian republic population and Ilotes (slaves, essentially) made up about 60% (!!!) of the Spartan population. In the US, during the civil war, Slaves were less than 10% of the total population and the number dropped when the deportations to Liberia happened.

Not to mention stuff like the serfdom in Russia and Romania that was essentially slavery and included up to 90% of the actual population and it lasted until the abolition of serfdom in the early 20th century.

Or how about the Egyptians, that had, under law, forced labor for the benefit of the state at least a few months a year (unless you were a priest or a noble, which less than 5% of the population was). The pyramids didn't build themselves.


So, huge industrial scale? No. More systematic way? Absolutely yes. But even that wasn't unprecedented. I will only remind of the Christian slave trade by the Khans of the black sea in the 15-16th century. They sold upwards to 3 million Christian slaves (mostly Slavs, from which the bloody word "slave" comes from) to the Ottoman empire that, in turn, sold them to the rest of the Arab nations. It was said that during the height of the Ottoman empire you could find Hungarian slaves in freeking Oman. And it wasn't just them. The Barbari coast pirates raided until the 18th century and there were reports of even looting villages in Iceland. Barbari coast, in case you are wondering, was the old name of north-west African coast, ie Morroco, Algeria etc.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Overdriven on November 18, 2012, 09:19:29 pm
Quote from: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 08:35:44 pm
Aaaactually, percentage wise, slavery from the 15th-18th century (where most of the slave trade happened) was much lower than in the past (except for a small period of time in the early 14th century where the pope forbid slavery and then the Spaniards found the Carribean so he kind of went 'fuck it'). The big difference is that, unlike in the past, most of the slaves didn't come locally or from the surrounding areas but from far-away lands to be sold to far-away lands. Still, in Ancient Greece (where slave culture is one of the best recorded), slaves made up about 30% of the Athenian republic population and Ilotes (slaves, essentially) made up about 60% (!!!) of the Spartan population. In the US, during the civil war, Slaves were less than 10% of the total population and the number dropped when the deportations to Liberia happened.

Not to mention stuff like the serfdom in Russia and Romania that was essentially slavery and included up to 90% of the actual population and it lasted until the abolition of serfdom in the early 20th century.

Or how about the Egyptians, that had, under law, forced labor for the benefit of the state at least a few months a year (unless you were a priest or a noble, which less than 5% of the population was). The pyramids didn't build themselves.


So, huge industrial scale? No. More systematic way? Absolutely yes. But even that wasn't unprecedented. I will only remind of the Christian slave trade by the Khans of the black sea in the 15-16th century. They sold upwards to 3 million Christian slaves (mostly Slavs, from which the bloody word "slave" comes from) to the Ottoman empire that, in turn, sold them to the rest of the Arab nations. It was said that during the height of the Ottoman empire you could find Hungarian slaves in freeking Oman. And it wasn't just them. The Barbari coast pirates raided until the 18th century and there were reports of even looting villages in Iceland. Barbari coast, in case you are wondering, was the old name of north-west African coast, ie Morroco, Algeria etc.

Well fair enough but I think my point was it was industrial for just one Empire to do that. Yeah the Roman empire and other nations had slaves before that. But 3.5 million odd slaves transported from the first recorded by British ships to the abolition. I'd say that's pretty industrial and considering other empires of the time had similar numbers, some actually estimated at more and also taking into account the British population only numbered 12 million by 1815. As a percentage of population this may be far smaller than other accounts in history, but the numbers of total people are certainly higher which is why I think it becomes industrialised. Fact is it was turned from a fairly unorganised and relatively random system into a fully flourishing, like you said, systematic business.

Yeah I've read enough history about the Ottoman Empire to know about the slaves taken in Europe for them. That's why there are watch towers around the whole of the med as well, particularly Italy where the city states used to constantly be raided by Ottoman and Barbary pirates. Was on the Amalfi coast a month or so ago and you can still see them.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Oberyn on November 19, 2012, 03:07:24 am
Did Arathian get permabanned for this thread?
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Havoco on November 19, 2012, 03:21:49 am
Quote from: Oberyn on November 19, 2012, 03:07:24 am
Did Arathian get permabanned for this thread?

Good question. I guess that means no more politics. Yep, ban everyone here.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Smoothrich on November 19, 2012, 03:36:52 am
Quote from: Havoco on November 19, 2012, 03:21:49 am
Good question. I guess that means no more politics. Yep, ban everyone here.

You see, cRPG forums are a society of givers and takers.  Some people give the permanent bans, the rest take them.  He wouldn't of been banned if his race didn't have a culture of dependence on others to do the moderating.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Oberyn on November 19, 2012, 03:43:39 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
Women and minorities were literally enslaved for hundreds of years to the institution of the white man.  Affirmative action or "politically correct" sensibilities is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.  How do you expect that to happen if women are still being paid less for the same jobs, or funding for public education/healthcare/social services are garbage for poor, minority-filled districts.

ITT, people confusing equal opportunity with equal results.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: [ptx] on November 19, 2012, 04:43:29 am
Quote from: Oberyn on November 19, 2012, 03:07:24 am
Did Arathian get permabanned for this thread?
I really hope he didn't.

Also, a big + to Overdriven and Arathian. People that get offended just for the sake of it ... they make me want to get a gun permit.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Falka on November 19, 2012, 09:13:19 am
Just lulz. Where is the freedom of speech in cRPG?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Casimir on November 19, 2012, 04:37:33 pm
no way he got perma banned for this?
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: LordBerenger on November 19, 2012, 04:47:13 pm
Quote from: Casimir on November 19, 2012, 04:37:33 pm
no way he got perma banned for this?


In communism CRPG ban mods you! (Derp!)
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Kafein on November 19, 2012, 04:51:37 pm
Saying some cultures encourage being lazy/cheating/whatever more than others is borderline and I would certainly never ever say that in public, but it's not racism.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 19, 2012, 04:52:20 pm
Quote from: Arathian on November 18, 2012, 01:43:38 pm
The reason blacks and hispanics in the US are living shitty lives right now is not because their grandfathers were oppressed by "da man". The Chinese had the same and they progressed, sometimes within 1 generation. It is because black culture in general, and in the US specifically, is fucking shitty. It promotes thuggery, laziness. It is anti-intellectual, tribalistic and, indeed, extremely racist. Some of the most racist people you can meet in the US right now are not white, but probably black people living in bad neighbourhoods blaming everything on "crakas".

Gypsies in Europe have a similar situation. Their culture is as shitty as shitty gets. It is NOT genes because many "gypsies" intergrate into the European society and blend is as well as any other after they completely abandon their culture. But the ones that keep their culture "pure" (and many choose to) as seen as the worst scum, and rightfully so (for many reasons I won't go over here. Most that live in Europe know why). In fact, self-identifying gypsies that are intergrated are...well...non-existent. On the other hand, people with gypsy racial background are not that uncommon, even in the US.

I guess this part is the reason why he got kicked out. He's probably only banned on forums.

I won't miss him, his way of trolling was annoying.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Kafein on November 19, 2012, 04:58:41 pm
I will dearly miss those passionating debates about morality, freedom of speech, religion and politics with arathian.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Teeth on November 19, 2012, 06:12:40 pm
I thought Arathian was making some excellent points in this thread, if he got permabanned for this all my faith in the moderation of the forum is lost.

Quote from: Kafein on November 19, 2012, 04:51:37 pm
Saying some cultures encourage being lazy/cheating/whatever more than others is borderline and I would certainly never ever say that in public, but it's not racism.
I don't consider that borderline at all, because it is obviously true. It is a well established concept that because someone gets born into a certain environment, he gets a set of values and ethics, which in the case of black bad neighbourhoods, isn't exactly equipping him for a succesful life. That has nothing to do with race or gender, it is just culture. Culture is something you can change, culture is not tied to race. When it comes to ambition, work ethic and diligence, there are inferior cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_cycle

Maybe he put it quite bluntly by calling it 'black culture in general', still that leaves room for exceptions and does not describe it as a defining characteristic. It is true that a large part of the black population in America is stuck in this poverty cycle.

If this is indeed the reason that he got banned, then fuck the moderator that did it. This kind of stuff is exactly what this thread is about, this irrational fear of anything that could vaguely be interpreted as racist or discriminating. Poor minorities go about blaming discrimination so they don't have to face their own shortcomings and we allow them. Affirmative action is fucking racist.

Anyway, culture =/= race. The average Chinese work ethic is much better than the average Afro-American from the ghetto's work ethic. Ban me.

Quote from: Smoothrich on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 am
Affirmative action is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.
You are disagreeing with yourself here, affirmative action means picking people based on their gender and race even if they are lacking in merit and ability compared to someone else. Postive discrimination is a disgusting concept.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Arathian on November 20, 2012, 01:23:05 am
Thanks for the support everyone, but don't get too riled up :3. It was an unfortunate misunderstanding. Talked with cmp and all's good.

Quote from: Smoothrich on November 19, 2012, 03:36:52 am
You see, cRPG forums are a society of givers and takers.  Some people give the permanent bans, the rest take them.  He wouldn't of been banned if his race didn't have a culture of dependence on others to do the moderating.

That hurts my feelings smoothy  :!:
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 01:42:10 am
Thanks for down vote, I really appreciate it.

Btw, your trolling sucks.

Now let's turn this into one of those famous communism vs capitalism threads. What's your opinion on both and can you give me advantages and disadvantages of both systems using short sentences?
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Arathian on November 20, 2012, 01:44:15 am
Quote from: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 01:42:10 am
Thanks for down vote, I really appreciate it.

Btw, your trolling sucks.

Now let's turn this into one of those famous communism vs capitalism threads. What your opinion on both and can you give me advantages and disadvantages of both systems using short sentences?

Leshma, I care more about dirt on the ground than you.

Dirt on the ground means I might step on hidden shit.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 01:49:06 am
So no commie vs imperialist discussion? Shame, I have some interesting non biased theories on that subject.

I don't see what you're getting by insulting me but keep it up if it makes you feel good about yourself.

No minus for you, I'm not generous person like you are.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Havoco on November 20, 2012, 01:56:07 am
Quote from: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 01:49:06 am
So no commie vs imperialist discussion? Shame, I have some interesting non biased theories on that subject.

I don't see what you're getting by insulting me but keep it up if it makes you feel good about yourself.

No minus for you, I'm not generous person like you are.

No

Berenger might if u start insulting the US though.

Kinda like his bat signal.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 02:05:24 am
Has little to do with US, it's more about China and why they ditched communism for capitalism.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Arathian on November 20, 2012, 02:08:25 am
Quote from: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 02:05:24 am
Has little to do with US, it's more about China and why they ditched communism for capitalism.

Cause the leaders decided they kind of didn't want to lose their heads Romania-style?

Dunno, makes sense.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Kafein on November 20, 2012, 11:17:24 am
Fact : people most often only downvote posts when they think they can do it in relative anonymity, such as when a post has already been downvoted a lot of times. Downvoting people you are arguing with is usually regarded as childish.


Quote from: Teeth on November 19, 2012, 06:12:40 pm
You are disagreeing with yourself here, affirmative action means picking people based on their gender and race even if they are lacking in merit and ability compared to someone else. Postive discrimination is a disgusting concept.

IMO the problem is that people living in bad neighborhoods, no matter their individual willingness to do something great with their life (or not), will not get good education. In today's society, most people don't go very far without education, and that's what's keeping social mobility so low. This is especially true in countries where education fees force students to be from a family with some financial resources, to take loans for absurd durations like 20 years and to work during their studies. I mean, what the fuck. If even a tenth of the US's GDP that currently goes in the juridic sector was given to education centers and a considerable part of that directed to fund free mandatory education (I don't know the names but I'm referring to the one that is mandatory until the age of 16 or 18), the healthcare crisis would be resolved within 10 years, families living in bad neighborhoods would actually start having the means to get out of them and unemployment would decrease as a consequence of a lower amount of low education unemployed people.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: LordBerenger on November 20, 2012, 01:29:18 pm
Quote from: Havoco on November 20, 2012, 01:56:07 am
No

Berenger might if u start insulting the US though.

Kinda like his bat signal.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



Quote from: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 01:42:10 am

Now let's turn this into one of those famous communism vs capitalism threads. What's your opinion on both and can you give me advantages and disadvantages of both systems using short sentences?

http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-off-topic/official-pro-capitalism-discussion-thread/msg479521/#msg479521
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 02:06:43 pm
@Berenger: Old thread, I'll rather do it here if you don't mind.

Quote from: Arathian on November 20, 2012, 02:08:25 am
Cause the leaders decided they kind of didn't want to lose their heads Romania-style?

Dunno, makes sense.

(click to show/hide)

Doubt that could ever happen. Mao Zedong wasn't an idiot like Ceaușescu.

Chinese exchanged communism with capitalism decades ago but most people still think they are communist state.

I have very high opinion of Chinese folks because they seem to be only people smart enough to figure out what's wrong with communism.

You see, communism is a lot better than capitalism in early stages. Provides huge economic growth because its very violent in the begging, in most cases communism turned family members and friends against each other and replaced their love for those that were close to them with love towards state and whole nation. That's why people worked for free and with passion to build a country in early stages of communism in Russia, Yugoslavia, Cuba and other South American countries.

In capitalism it's all about individual, you have to give your best to survive and create something for yourself. It's hard to persuade large groups of people to work together towards the same goal because each one of them is working to accomplish his own goals. There's no morale boost, unity and things you see in early stages of communism.

Then why communism fails, you ask me? It's pretty damn simple. That initial sparkle doesn't last forever. Whole idea of communism is to make system where everyone will enjoy, and people work hard only at the beginning to build a foundation. Later they become lazy and that is exactly the reason why every state based on communism failed so far.

There's no such issue with capitalism, it's constant. You need work at early stage, you need to work always if you want to survive. You stop working hard and you're in a trouble.

Mao or someone close to him figured that out and changed the system to capitalism before it was too late. Now they are great country, growing day by day because they were smart unlike almost every other country that lived in communism.

What's the point of all of this?

If you want your country to grow, you should embrace communism in a way every else did. Make it as bloody as possible but build the faith and raise morale of the people. After 5 to 10 years max ditch it for capitalism and your country will prosper more than it could if you start with just capitalism.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: LordBerenger on November 20, 2012, 02:25:43 pm
Quote from: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 02:06:43 pm
@Berenger: Old thread, I'll rather do it here if you don't mind.
'

Fine. Capitalism is the solution
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: [ptx] on November 20, 2012, 02:35:38 pm
@Leshma
Yes, building a future on the bones of those around you is smart. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 02:58:05 pm
It's not humane but smart, yes I think it is. Most successful countries did it.

Humanity is fading away, it's not important as it was before.

They don't even send pilots to bomb people anyone, because human pilot is liability. Pilot can have doubts about his mission or end up being captured. That's why they send pre-programmed drones which don't give a fuck how many innocents get killed. And the guy who is programming them doesn't feel that much guilt because to him everything looks like a bloody video game.

Today are drones, tomorrow another science fiction favorite, nanobots used in medicine for treating diseases and everything else. It's not that far away actually and it's better and safer than using viruses in biological warfare.

Things few people still care about will become meaningless in the near future. Yes, I'm talking about morality, humanity, kindness, empathy and stuff like that.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Falka on November 20, 2012, 06:23:01 pm
Quote from: Kafein on November 20, 2012, 11:17:24 am
Fact : people most often only downvote posts when they think they can do it in relative anonymity, such as when a post has already been downvoted a lot of times. Downvoting people you are arguing with is usually regarded as childish.

It's not a fact, it's only your opinion about other people's behaviour. I downvote posts - not people! - with which I don't agree or which I find stupid. It's regarded as childish you say? Well, if you care about it....
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Kafein on November 20, 2012, 06:26:01 pm
Quote from: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 02:58:05 pm
It's not humane but smart, yes I think it is. Most successful countries did it.

Humanity is fading away, it's not important as it was before.

They don't even send pilots to bomb people anyone, because human pilot is liability. Pilot can have doubts about his mission or end up being captured. That's why they send pre-programmed drones which don't give a fuck how many innocents get killed. And the guy who is programming them doesn't feel that much guilt because to him everything looks like a bloody video game.

Today are drones, tomorrow another science fiction favorite, nanobots used in medicine for treating diseases and everything else. It's not that far away actually and it's better and safer than using viruses in biological warfare.

Things few people still care about will become meaningless in the near future. Yes, I'm talking about morality, humanity, kindness, empathy and stuff like that.

I don't think you can change the human nature and our natural tendency to be somewhat altruistic (or at least have some kind of value/ethics system) without a massive genetic intervention or a lot of time.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Teeth on November 20, 2012, 07:03:30 pm
Quote from: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 02:06:43 pm
Chinese exchanged communism with capitalism decades ago but most people still think they are communist state.
They ditched economic communism for capitalism, with capitalism being a purely economic system. Politically and socially they are still very much a communist state. Communism is an all encompassing ideology, it's not just about economy.

That is just one of a whole load of wrong statements in your post, sadly I am lazy and this is a thread about political correctness.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 07:10:02 pm
You don't know shit about communism, don't pretend you do.

Edit: Maybe it's time for you to change that avatar of yours. Dali was a bit crazy, but was also a genius. You using that avatar is insulting to those people who respect Dali's work.

Edit2: I won't deny that I might be wrong about some things I said but what makes you think you're right about anything you said in this or that other political thread. Do you have any credentials to back up your views? Does being so full of yourself work as well in real life for you like it obviously does on these forums (you being a King and all, what a joke).
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2012, 07:17:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on November 20, 2012, 06:26:01 pm
I don't think you can change the human nature and our natural tendency to be somewhat altruistic (or at least have some kind of value/ethics system) without a massive genetic intervention or a lot of time.

Is that a scientific fact or something you believe? Maybe people are altruistic where you live, they sure aren't where I live. And when there is war, people do nasty stuff.

Immoral people also have their own value system, but it's completely the opposite from what moral people believe in.

Saying how "good" people are full of something divine, while bad people are empty shells is bullshit various religions are feeding us for centuries. Don't get me wrong, I'm not playing for the bad guys but I don't think they are monsters like good people believe. After all everything we believe in is just that, things we believe in. Universe doesn't give a fuck for sure.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: Kafein on November 20, 2012, 07:43:16 pm
Long before the human species started to emerge, group and in some kind "altruistic" behavior has been selected by evolution because it was goddamn working. Especially when you see things like kin selection. Helping people with genes the same as yours also helps your own genes.

This is basically why almost all humans structure themselves in groups. But a group can only be defined through exclusion. It only exists if you have some way of categorizing people "in" and "out" of it. Trouble begins when you start thinking that people outside whatever group you are in are worth less than people that are in the group. Religions, nations, races, all that shit, it's "my gang yeah, your gang boo" all over again. Even worse, a group's cohesion is highly dependant on how threatening the outside world seems to its members. It's the "common enemy" syndrome. I often hear people saying that our western societies have lost social cohesion. Putting it bluntly, we need a war or anything else that would force us to cooperate more. A conflict or threat of any sort tends to encourage narrowmindedness and cooperation which very mechanically reinforce the bonds between people.
Title: Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 20, 2012, 08:41:39 pm
Didn't read past page 1....Arathian I agree that culture does play a large part in the disparity between ethnic groups in the USA.  HOWEVER, education and what vagina you fell out of, play a huge part in it as well (how much money the vagina can summon being the main issue).

People born in poor conditions and receiving poor education growing up, are far more likely to continue the pattern of being poor than someone born to parents with some money and access to education, health care, and social functions that make a well balanced human being.

Yes, culture plays a pretty big role, but so do a lot of these socio-economic factors, to ignore that is very ignorant (not saying you are, but you should have mentioned it to give both sides of the coin a fair shake).  The elementary school I went to, is now 75-80% non-white students, and I grew up directly with the anti-intellectual culture of black people.  It certainly wasn't across the board, but it was a pervasive attitude, and anyone who was black and didn't go by that attitude was criticized and labeled "whitey" or otherwise ostracized. 

Sure some poor people are able to get "bootstrappy" and change from a 3rd class citizen to someone in the middle class, but those cases are few and far between compared to the majority, and it's not just black people or Latinos either, it's white poor people as well.  And it's more than just cultural aspects that propagate this continuation of the class your parents brought you into this world as.

An associate's degree is pretty much standard requirement nowadays for most jobs, where as 30 years ago it was a high school diploma.  Just to get a job that I could train someone to do in 2 days, requires a 2 year college degree.  That costs money, and it requires the person to have some level of education they consumed growing up that they can fall back on.  So it is both cultural and economic factors at play here, but you can't just discount one side of the spectrum.