cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: BADPLAYER_old2 on November 15, 2012, 12:36:51 am
Title: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on November 15, 2012, 12:36:51 am
Hey there i'm not very good with words or posting so i'm just gonna try make this a short post that has a few ideas i've been thinking about for awhile, I've played this game for about 2 years and done every class for atleast a gen but mainly cavalry so I think I have a good grasp on balance in this game, thats for you to decide though I guess.
Also this isn't just a rage post on why they need a buff vs ranged because i'm bad, I do perfectly well as cavalry now but the playstyle is in my opinion flawed as it rewards complete backstabbing and going after melee targets and not ranged unless they are completely alone. I think this is pretty awful for a few reasons -
The main reason people complain about cav is that they are always backstabbed by them, it's impossible to always be on the lookout using tilde or whatever you do to peep behind you, and when you aren't you will probably get lanced.
Cavalry are pretty much the only class that can run down archers except gimmick agi builds in light armour but cav are penalized for going anywhere near ranged by them destroying their horses in a few arrows/bolts/throwing weapons. The only reason kiting archers exist is because cavalry are too scared to go near them.
It's not very skill based, stabbing people from behind is literally 90% of what cavalry does right now and it requires no skill at all, and if you manage to hit a bad cav players horse when he goes to attack you from behind as melee the vast majority of the time it doesn't even die and he gets away safely, no other class can mess up that bad and usually live, and if he is using something like an armoured horse have fun because he can mess up a whole bunch of times and still not worry about it.
So here are my ideas on what changes could happen to fix this.
Reduce damage from all types of ranged weapons to horses by 1/2 or more This might be controversial but I think it is needed if cavalry is to become a real counter to ranged classes, right now a cav player can pretty easily kill 1 solo ranged player, but as soon as its 2-3 or more he cannot go anywhere near them without being destroyed. Armoured horses lessen the pain but still they aren't great, I'm using a champion mamluk right now and it dies within 5-10seconds of being near more than 2archers. I feel this would also stop cavalry backstabbing ranged players so much, if you can ride against an archer head on and not have to worry about your horse being 1-2shot I feel it is alot more skill based for both parties since the archer can dodge the lance, headshot the rider ect rather than instantly dieing from being backstabbed.
Severly increase the damage melee hits do to ALL areas of a horse, making light horses get 1-2shot and heavy ones 2-3 even with no speed bonus This change is just to punish bad cav who get hit when lancing melee players, combined with the last change I am pretty sure it would make ranged players the main target of bad cavalry while not making any difference to the good ones who don't get hit anyways which in my opinion is a great thing. It would massively cut down on complaints of archer camping/kiting if cavalry was encouraged to go after them instead of backstabbing melee.
Nerf bump damage by atleast 1/2 for every horse, maybe even more Isn't much to say here except that right now the bump damage for some horses (mainly the armoured ones) is stupidly strong, you can get a 2:1 kdr by just bumping people with your shield up. Requires no skill so should reduced.
Remove couching completely for all thrustable lances. Removing couching from the thrustable lances probably would of been a big deal last patch, but now there really isn't any reason to couch unless you are bad and can't time your thrusts since they do pretty much the same damage. Might as well remove couching for these lances since it's just something that makes it easier for bad players to do well at cavalry which isn't needed.
Remove the shield forcefield on horseback I think everyone agrees this is bullshit, many times I have blocked people overheading me from behind when im blocking infront of them with an elite cavalry shield, not much else to be said.
Basically if these changes were implemented what I see happening is ~ Ranged would have to use teamwork with pikemen or hoplites ect and stick with their team to be protected from cavalry. Now if there is a group of 8 archers in an open plain, you pretty much are not getting anywhere near that without your horse dieing, after the change they would need protection from their team instead of them being their own protection from cav, this would be a pretty huge boon to cav in strategus too which isn't the easiest thing for most players. Bad cav would have a much more unforgiving time going after melee and getting kills in general, which puts it more in line with what every other class is like when you are bad at it. Fighting cav especially armoured horses as melee would be more "fair" since they are much easier to bring down with just a couple hits if they make mistakes and you outplay them.
This post is terribly written, formatted and probably a ton of spelling mistakes because I Am A Noted Shitposter but yeah I hope you get my idea's and pls post thx.
p.s i'm BADPLAYER fyi noted 2nd best cavalry player in the game.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 15, 2012, 01:37:00 am
as infantry i'd support this, even when a rouncey stops right next to me i typically am unable to kill it before it rides off, yet i see ranged drop destriers and above with 2-3 shots frequently. ideally, cav would have to be very choosey about engaging infantry but easily pick off ranged. this would discourage kiting, keep cav from plowing through entire teams and coming out alive, and force ranged to cooperate with their team. it wouldn't even really be a cav nerf, they'd just have to kill ranged instead of late spawn infantry.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 15, 2012, 01:39:42 am
I'm a little wary of how this would make those 7 riding horse crossbowmen even harder to kill. Very interesting suggestions though.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Tydeus on November 15, 2012, 01:47:29 am
Yes, but only if chadz gives points to the melee that are defending the archers, which is something that we have severely needed anyway. Every time an archer deals damage, any melee within 6m~ should get 1/4~ of the points the archer got.
Also, slightly reduce the proximity bonus and slightly increase the kill bonus. Getting 6 kills in a round as melee only to have your team lose and you not get valour, is a bit ridiculous. This generally happens because I'm fighting alone, which is where my build excels.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Smoothrich on November 15, 2012, 02:12:19 am
Would be a big buff to cav overall, would need nerfs besides increased damage from melee to stay balanced.
I still highly suggest that all lances become 3 slots so you can't get dismounted off a double HP heavy cav horse and begin wildly swinging around a poleaxe or steel shield + scimitar the moment you get dismounted, but need a 1 slot weapon or hoplite with your lance until you scavenge one from the ground. This idea seems pretty popular, because most people are very frustrated by how easy of a hybrid cav lancer is. Arbalest, Rus/Long Bows, pikemen, these guys need at least 3 slots to be effective at their primary role. Lancer cav should have the same restriction.
I like horse's stats now so I really see no reason to change those things, but I have always agreed that ranged is too effective against cavalry. However, heavy cav is already pretty damn tanky against them.
I think ranged armor penetration values should just be reworked in general, as horses already have high base HP, so melee have to wack away at them. But archers and crossbows generally are all pierce damage, and high cut throwing weapons were rebalanced to basically be pierce too. I think they do too much damage to horses AND players, and the game would be better balanced if ranged were less effective against armor in general.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Tydeus on November 15, 2012, 02:18:39 am
Would be a big buff to cav overall, would need nerfs besides increased damage from melee to stay balanced.
I still highly suggest that all lances become 3 slots so you can't get dismounted off a double HP heavy cav horse and begin wildly swinging around a poleaxe or steel shield + scimitar the moment you get dismounted, but need a 1 slot weapon or hoplite with your lance until you scavenge one from the ground. This idea seems pretty popular, because most people are very frustrated by how easy of a hybrid cav lancer is. Arbalest, Rus/Long Bows, pikemen, these guys need at least 3 slots to be effective at their primary role. Lancer cav should have the same restriction.
I like horse's stats now so I really see no reason to change those things, but I have always agreed that ranged is too effective against cavalry. However, heavy cav is already pretty damn tanky against them.
I think ranged armor penetration values should just be reworked in general, as horses already have high base HP, so melee have to wack away at them. But archers and crossbows generally are all pierce damage, and high cut throwing weapons were rebalanced to basically be pierce too. I think they do too much damage to horses AND players, and the game would be better balanced if ranged were less effective against armor in general.
Hybriding in general right now, is very easy to do (unless you're trying to hybrid HA with something). Meanwhile, there is almost no benefit to specializing in one thing, especially when that specialization cuts things out like athletics for archers, so that they can focus on maximizing damage and accuracy.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Lamk on November 15, 2012, 02:20:10 am
Arbalest, Rus/Long Bows, pikemen, these guys need at least 3 slots to be effective at their primary role. Lancer cav should have the same restriction.
You gotta remember that those are ranged classes and that it is easy to fire 3 arrows at the same guy while lancing 3 times the same guy is hard in a melee because there are more risks for the rider and his horse
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Smoothrich on November 15, 2012, 02:26:05 am
You gotta remember that those are ranged classes and that it is easy to fire 3 arrows at the same guy while lancing 3 times the same guy is hard in a melee because there are more risks for the rider and his horse
Lancing will be the same. Right now its just too easy to lance until your horse dies, then start your second life as a fully powered 2hander/polearmer/1hander with a full infantry gear loadout. Its already OP. Cav riders should just be vulnerable longer after being dismounted, by being stuck with a 1 slot weapon or lance hoplite until they scavenge one off the ground.
I know how lancing is, I just think the viability of the lancer/melee hybrid and spawning with a full loadout is too effective.
The OP's changes would allow a cav rider to be half invincible while lancing mobs of ranged players, and then when he gets dismounted can just go back to spamming a poleaxe instantly at the archers. Would be OP.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Lichen on November 15, 2012, 02:29:11 am
The main reason people complain about cav is that they are always backstabbed by them, it's impossible to always be on the lookout using tilde or whatever you do to peep behind you, and when you aren't you will probably get lanced.
Cavalry are pretty much the only class that can run down archers except gimmick agi builds in light armour but cav are penalized for going anywhere near ranged by them destroying their horses in a few arrows/bolts/throwing weapons.
It's not very skill based, stabbing people from behind is literally 90% of what cavalry does right now
So here are my ideas on what changes could happen to fix this.
Reduce damage from all types of ranged weapons to horses by 1/2 or more This might be controversial but I think it is needed if cavalry is to become a real counter to ranged classes, right now a cav player can pretty easily kill 1 solo ranged player, but as soon as its 2-3 or more he cannot go anywhere near them without being destroyed. Armoured horses lessen the pain but still they aren't great, I'm using a champion mamluk right now and it dies within 5-10seconds of being near more than 2archers. I feel this would also stop cavalry backstabbing ranged players so much, if you can ride against an archer head on and not have to worry about your horse being 1-2shot I feel it is alot more skill based for both parties since the archer can dodge the lance, headshot the rider ect rather than instantly dieing from being backstabbed.
Severly increase the damage melee hits do to ALL areas of a horse, making light horses get 1-2shot and heavy ones 2-3 even with no speed bonus This change is just to punish bad cav who get hit when lancing melee players, combined with the last change I am pretty sure it would make ranged players the main target of bad cavalry while not making any difference to the good ones who don't get hit anyways which in my opinion is a great thing. It would massively cut down on complaints of archer camping/kiting if cavalry was encouraged to go after them instead of backstabbing melee.
Nerf bump damage by atleast 1/2 for every horse, maybe even more Isn't much to say here except that right now the bump damage for some horses (mainly the armoured ones) is stupidly strong, you can get a 2:1 kdr by just bumping people with your shield up. Requires no skill so should reduced.
An idea I've thought might work is lower horse health BUT increase their armor to the point where many arrows glance. This would also make horses more vulnerable to melee if they have less health. Obviously for low end horses they should still be weak vs archers though.
Remove couching completely for all thrustable lances. Removing couching from the thrustable lances probably would of been a big deal last patch, but now there really isn't any reason to couch unless you are bad and can't time your thrusts since they do pretty much the same damage. Might as well remove couching for these lances since it's just something that makes it easier for bad players to do well at cavalry which isn't needed.
Remove the shield forcefield on horseback I think everyone agrees this is bullshit, many times I have blocked people overheading me from behind when im blocking infront of them with an elite cavalry shield, not much else to be said.
Yep.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Rebelyell on November 15, 2012, 02:29:29 am
such a gay sugestion soo gay cav heaters
Severly increase the damage melee hits do to ALL areas of a horse, making light horses get 1-2shot and heavy ones 2-3 even with no speed bonus
aim for legs you blind retar....... 2200k repair for fucking 1hit kill on my ponny
why do you even upvote that crap?
ahh btw I am not cav now, at last for that gen and next 10.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Smoothrich on November 15, 2012, 02:31:55 am
An idea I've thought might work is lower horse health BUT increase their armor to the point where many arrows glance. This would also make horses more vulnerable to melee if they have less health. Obviously for low end horses they should still be weak vs archers though.
Ya I like that idea, I've thought about that too. The high HP is what makes it difficult for infantry to kill, but ranged just cut through HP like butter, infantry or cav, and cav is even easier with wonky speed bonuses turning every arrow into a 50+ pierce damage awlpike thrust to a horse's head.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on November 15, 2012, 02:41:45 am
Lancing will be the same. Right now its just too easy to lance until your horse dies, then start your second life as a fully powered 2hander/polearmer/1hander with a full infantry gear loadout. Its already OP. Cav riders should just be vulnerable longer after being dismounted, by being stuck with a 1 slot weapon or lance hoplite until they scavenge one off the ground.
I know how lancing is, I just think the viability of the lancer/melee hybrid and spawning with a full loadout is too effective.
The OP's changes would allow a cav rider to be half invincible while lancing mobs of ranged players, and then when he gets dismounted can just go back to spamming a poleaxe instantly at the archers. Would be OP.
Well I do think horses should probably have a bigger riding requirement to if not stop people going hybrid, force hybrid cav to be 15/21, 12/24 ect instead of 24/15 which is literally just the normal str build on NA except 3less IF and 2 less WM.
I just didn't wanna put too many cav nerfs into one post haha.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 15, 2012, 03:02:10 am
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Ujin on November 15, 2012, 10:38:12 am
Yes to the forcefield removal, but shield skill should matter when you're on a horse too.
Yes to the slight reduction of archer damage , because most of the time it's suicidal to try and help your team by attacking enemy archer stacks, even when you're riding a champion cataphract with 3k upkeep.
A big NO to the increased melee damage, it already does a lot if the hit is solid and especially if the legs of the horse get hit. What's "Bad Cavalry"? Making all cav players play in the same way is not a good idea, if someone's riding on a heavy armored horse he should be able to at least try and ride into groups of enemies and cause havoc . It's a 50/50 chance of survival even now , so keep it the way it is. The leg slashing mechanic does it's job well enough , the less spammy players who actually think before they click can kill even heavy horses fast enough. One more point i'd like to add in my edit : if the shield forcefield is gone there will be even less need for increased melee damage to horses. No need to elaborate here , i hope.
I can understand the logic behind the couching removal from all but couch-only lances, so ok with that.
Bump damage- it's not that huge against armored enemies now anyway. I can see the frustration if a non armored horse charges you and bumps you for alot of damage, but I play as infantry a lot and i don't think i was ever really that annoyed by the bump damage, but then again i have 50ish body armor (0 IF though). I still think that heavy horses should keep their charge damage, it's one of the reasons they have a much higher upkeep and it's their purpose, plus they are much easier to dodge/dodge slash anyway,
Just my 2 cents. People keep complaining how cav is incredibly easy and op though nowadays with the amount of pikers and hoplites (i'm talking about Eu_1 of course) it's not as easy as it may seem, a good infantry player can stack up the same or a bigger amount of kills. And the new points system actually works too now that ranged players aim for the horses, which is perfectly normal .By the way, a thrower can 2 shot my champ cata , 1 shot if he hits the head when i ride at decent speed . =)
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 15, 2012, 10:56:05 am
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 12:29:56 pm
Force field removal: lobbying this for eternity.. and not only horsemen :twisted: Damage changes: not necessary see many ranged shooting exclusively for rider or not bothering to target cavs at all even if their team was cav massacred maybe some accuracy nerf for archmy old friend and xmy old friend will force them to cooperate... Bump lovering: bump damage is good but I suggest some damage nerf for high agility users 24+ not much but some cause they are often bumped to death even when evade cavs attack. Couching removal: this will hamper mostly arab side strafers so its good idea coz EU is polluted by them.
And of course buff speed of heavy lance and add shield break for Ebill :mrgreen:
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Arrowblood on November 15, 2012, 12:31:50 pm
A well -written and thoughtful post, both yours and Maypex's. Not in a single sentence have i suggested any kind of a buff to cavalry in my post.
Gotta love people who attack anyone who doesn't instantly agree with every cav nerf suggestion there is. I guess i'm like a red cape for you little bullies.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on November 15, 2012, 03:35:31 pm
A big NO to the increased melee damage, it already does a lot if the hit is solid and especially if the legs of the horse get hit. What's "Bad Cavalry"? Making all cav players play in the same way is not a good idea, if someone's riding on a heavy armored horse he should be able to at least try and ride into groups of enemies and cause havoc . It's a 50/50 chance of survival even now , so keep it the way it is. The leg slashing mechanic does it's job well enough , the less spammy players who actually think before they click can kill even heavy horses fast enough. One more point i'd like to add in my edit : if the shield forcefield is gone there will be even less need for increased melee damage to horses. No need to elaborate here , i hope.
Bump damage- it's not that huge against armored enemies now anyway. I can see the frustration if a non armored horse charges you and bumps you for alot of damage, but I play as infantry a lot and i don't think i was ever really that annoyed by the bump damage, but then again i have 50ish body armor (0 IF though). I still think that heavy horses should keep their charge damage, it's one of the reasons they have a much higher upkeep and it's their purpose, plus they are much easier to dodge/dodge slash anyway,
The only reason I really want those nerfs is from personal experience using champion cataphract and mamluk and how broken they are vs melee players. Right now on a mamluk the amount of times you can make mistakes vs melee players is pretty huge, even when I get reared by a pike I can just turn and run away unless they have like great mauls nearby or becs/steel picks. I just feel that if a cav player makes a mistake he should die for it, the class already gets some pretty great advantages being able to pick and choose every fight they want, run away from anyone else and ect that they don't need to be able to take so much damage too.
Same reason with the bump damage, I have literally 2hit archers by just bumps on a mamluk and that mustn't be very fun for them. I think heavy cav should be basically immune to ranged which right now sadly they arent, but are instead pretty much immune to melee.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 15, 2012, 03:56:35 pm
Same reason with the bump damage, I have literally 2hit archers by just bumps on a mamluk and that mustn't be very fun for them. I think heavy cav should be basically immune to ranged which right now sadly they arent, but are instead pretty much immune to melee.
As an archer, just a destrier takes about a 1/4 of my health. It is pretty annoying to get bumped to death by noskilledbumpcavthatdon'teventryandlanceyou.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Kafein on November 15, 2012, 07:52:20 pm
As an archer, just a destrier takes about a 1/4 of my health. It is pretty annoying to get bumped to death by noskilledbumpcavthatdon'teventryandlanceyou.
If you get bumped by cav, that means you literaly didn't even tried to dodge it.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 15, 2012, 07:55:11 pm
The only reason I really want those nerfs is from personal experience using champion cataphract and mamluk and how broken they are vs melee players. Right now on a mamluk the amount of times you can make mistakes vs melee players is pretty huge, even when I get reared by a pike I can just turn and run away unless they have like great mauls nearby or becs/steel picks. I just feel that if a cav player makes a mistake he should die for it, the class already gets some pretty great advantages being able to pick and choose every fight they want, run away from anyone else and ect that they don't need to be able to take so much damage too.
Same reason with the bump damage, I have literally 2hit archers by just bumps on a mamluk and that mustn't be very fun for them. I think heavy cav should be basically immune to ranged which right now sadly they arent, but are instead pretty much immune to melee.
Depends on what the enemies are doing, if they rear your horse and focus you, you're most likely dead, if not - you get out with some decent damage taken.This is what heavy cav is for, otherwise there would be no difference between armored and non-armored horses ,except fot the bigger upkeep and worse movement stats.
As for archer bumping - it's a viable and smart way to kill an archer. You come at a guy like Bagge or Peljaen with your lance ready and 8/10 times you'll get a headshot. Hold your shield up and try to bump them and then you get a better chance, although if they pay attention they can still jump away and shoot your horse. Archers are the most lightly armored infantry out there with a ranged weapon that can 1 shot almost anyone (headshot) and it doesn't take them that long to focus fire even the heavier horses. Do you also get annoyed when you get 1shot by a 2hander that managed to get to you ?
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: oprah_winfrey on November 15, 2012, 08:10:26 pm
As for archer bumping - it's a viable and smart way to kill an archer. You come at a guy like Bagge or Peljaen with your lance ready and 8/10 times you'll get a headshot. Hold your shield up and try to bump them and then you get a better chance, although if they pay attention they can still jump away and shoot your horse. Archers are the most lightly armored infantry out there with a ranged weapon that can 1 shot almost anyone (headshot) and it doesn't take them that long to focus fire even the heavier horses. Do you also get annoyed when you get 1shot by a 2hander that managed to get to you ?
I can block a sword, I can't block a horse.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Ujin on November 15, 2012, 08:13:16 pm
You know, it's just as uncomfortable for me as a rider when multiple archers shoot my horse as it is for you to get attacked by multiple cav ? =)
Except two archers cannot possibly block each other's path trying to attack the same guy. The cav can, and it turns both of them into "shoot me" signs.
Are you telling me you have never been bumped by cav?
The amount of times I've been bumped when I was actually trying to avoid it is almost negligible. When a horse goes slow enough to hit someone with a good degree of certainty, the bump doesn't even do any damage. Except when I'm fighting someone and that this bump ends up knocking me down (which is very uncommon at low speeds), it has no effect on me.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Malaclypse on November 15, 2012, 11:58:46 pm
The amount of times I've been bumped when I was actually trying to avoid it is almost negligible. When a horse goes slow enough to hit someone with a good degree of certainty, the bump doesn't even do any damage. Except when I'm fighting someone and that this bump ends up knocking me down (which is very uncommon at low speeds), it has no effect on me.
I agree that while actively trying to avoid it, it's very hard for someone with "just enough" riding to nail somebody with their horse 1 on 1. Being able to barrel through entire groups is something else though, and something which happens often enough.
The problem I have with the bump is that past a certain velocity, it's 100% knockdown "chance", whether the person you hit is friend or foe, and the bump itself does too much damage for what is just pressing W at someone.
The only thing that someone has to pay for these uber-moves is skill points (like a melee having to pay for Power Strike or a thrower for Power Throw- except it's a combined effect and also gives movement and maneuverability, so it's like Power Strike + Athletics in one go, the extra damage being generated by raw speed) and gold (and the gold cost isn't really an issue at all after selling one heirloom point or wearing cloth for awhile).
I just don't think that such huge advantages are deserved.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Berserkadin on November 16, 2012, 06:18:36 pm
Nerfing alrdy killed most of the fun/mod. Plz stahp.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 16, 2012, 06:22:36 pm
Haven't read this thread, but IMO the only cavalry balance I'd like to see is that if you survive on your horse you should have less chance of upkeep. I think this would enable more people to ride the heavier horses (which I think are inferior for speed/mobility reasons than the destrier, courser or arabian warhorse). Right now the best horse is the arabian, but I think the heavy horses should have a place on the battlefield as well.
IMO the lancers should really be on heavy horses and making couch passes at enemy infantry lines. The lighter horses would only be ideal for chasing down other cavalry or specialty things like xbow or archer on horse.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: San on November 17, 2012, 06:15:26 pm
I think that's reasonable as long as chances are increased if you are not on YOUR horse by the end of the round (which means getting off your horse even if it is alive subjects you to penalties if you don't get back on by the end). I don't really think upkeep is really a huge issue except for those heavy horses, since you can still be plenty effective on a rouncey if you care about upkeep.
As far as damage to horse goes, I would still like it if the leg weakness was removed, but there is an extra damage modifier on the head, only. That reduces the chance of a teammate 1shotting your horse by accident and gives a bonus to melee who take risks against a charging horse. There are more classes than greatswords and super long polearms that do indeed take quite a huge risk against those cav instead of just simply dodging. Often times, they hit the horse without damaging the rider, letting the rider get a free hit on them. Plus, it's easier to move the horse's head, so you have some control over getting shot there sometimes.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Kafein on November 18, 2012, 04:58:33 pm
The problem I have with the bump is that past a certain velocity, it's 100% knockdown "chance", whether the person you hit is friend or foe, and the bump itself does too much damage for what is just pressing W at someone.
It's more than just pressing W at people you know. I remember a while ago sometimes even bumpslashing certain archers even though they were completely unaware of me was not that easy, simply because of their constant dodging that my horse, despite having the highest maneuver stat, was too sluggish to track. The best unaware target always remained the typical STR crutching 2h or polearm, walking in a straight line. Bumping enemies near your teammates isn't trivial either, especially when the aforementioned teammates just keep circling around the bad guys.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on November 19, 2012, 06:30:07 pm
If cav is so OP, and upkeep is negligible......
why aren't we having massive 40 v 40 cavalry charges?
Cause that sounds rather fun.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Malaclypse on November 19, 2012, 06:33:14 pm
It's more than just pressing W at people you know. I remember a while ago sometimes even bumpslashing certain archers even though they were completely unaware of me was not that easy, simply because of their constant dodging that my horse, despite having the highest maneuver stat, was too sluggish to track. The best unaware target always remained the typical STR crutching 2h or polearm, walking in a straight line. Bumping enemies near your teammates isn't trivial either, especially when the aforementioned teammates just keep circling around the bad guys.
Yes, sometimes you have to press A, D, S, and it can be hard to hit people. But no other weapon in the game has such a high knockdown chance on a successful hit is my basic gripe. Whether you're hitting a teammate or an enemy, if you're above trotting speed, it's going to knock them over without fail, and that's pretty ridiculous.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on November 21, 2012, 07:00:06 pm
I think bump should have its damage decreased under a certain speed. But, if your horse is gunning towards somebody at full speed the damage should still be significant. I mean, holy shit, you just hit somebody with a horse running at like 30 miles an hour, it should hurt.
Also, I would love having ranged damage nerfed for cavalry, because as things stand I can't just rush more than one archer at a time. If cav's supposed to be a counter to ranged, then this change would make sense.
Jesus christ don't buff melee damage to horses. That's retarded. I'd just spend each and every round chasing archers around and killing peasants. God, that's fun. Melee damage is good for horses right now, imo.
Cav players should take some fall damage when their horse dies, imo. It shouldn't be enough to just kill them outright, though, because that would suck. I'm not a developing fetus attached to my horse via an umbilical cord that, if severed too early, results in my untimely death and/or retardation. Besides, cav player's horses die from under them all the fucking time. Dying early on in the round sucks, brah (yeah yeah, I know, "tell that to the afk's and peasants you lance at spawn, JoE, you bundle of sticks").
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Rumblood on November 21, 2012, 10:29:04 pm
Reduce damage from all types of ranged weapons to horses by 1/2 or more This might be controversial but I think it is needed if cavalry is to become a real counter to ranged classes, right now a cav player can pretty easily kill 1 solo ranged player, but as soon as its 2-3 or more he cannot go anywhere near them without being destroyed.
Explain to me why you think that ANY class should be able to kill any other class easily solo, and needs to be able to take on 2-3 players at the same time and expect to have an even chance to win? Go look up balance :?
And fuck this shit:
Quote
if cavalry is to become a real counter to ranged classes
Ranged is needed as a real counter to cavalry, not the other way around!
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Kafein on November 22, 2012, 10:13:27 am
Ranged is needed as a real counter to cavalry, not the other way around!
On the basis of what ?
Out of cav and ranged, I only see one class that no class counters easily but itself. Cav is countered by any player with a weapon. You just need to be aware.
Explain to me why you think that ANY class should be able to kill any other class easily solo, and needs to be able to take on 2-3 players at the same time and expect to have an even chance to win? Go look up balance :?
Then why can archers do this with 2h and polearms ?
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Rumblood on November 22, 2012, 01:36:50 pm
Out of cav and ranged, I only see one class that no class counters easily but itself. Cav is countered by any player with a weapon. You just need to be aware.
Then why can archers do this with 2h and polearms ?
Do you even read the opinions you are spewing? ON THE BASIS OF WHAT? :rolleyes: Cavalry is countered by any player with a weapon? Archery is countered by any player with a weapon. And of the two, ONE of them can be caught by a player on foot. The OTHER one can't unless the cavalry decides to cut them some slack and get too close. :rolleyes:
Are you seriously being owned by a (not an archer because he doesn't have any arrows) player with 1 WPF in 2 hander or pole?
Wow.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on November 23, 2012, 09:17:01 pm
Either cav should be fucking hard to kill, and tankish, and able to counter ranged by tanking their shots, closing the distance, and fucking them up.
Or, cav can be ninja like, fast, and sneak up on ranged to fuck them up.
Or, OR, you can have both. Some horses tank, and some horses sneak up on people. This, I think, is how it should be done, because it'll allow for more flexibility. This, I think, is already being done, but could be done better. The courser and arabian horses are fast and can sneak up on players for gay kills. The plated horses, and the destrier, are heavily armored and have much hp, and can bum-rush players for gay kills.
I think, however, that the differences between the fast horses and the tank horses should be a bit greater and should be more exaggerated. The faster horses are, I think, fine atm (it's why I ride a courser). The heavy horses are a little too fast, and not quite as tough as I'd like them too be. They're also too expensive, at least if seen as another option for a cav player, rather than as simply "better" horses.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Adamar on November 23, 2012, 10:14:28 pm
Just remove archers, put the class out of its pain.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on November 27, 2012, 09:15:08 am
Having played on EU_1 a bit in the wee hours of the morning lately; it seems that EU does not have as much of a problem with cav-stacks and such. This seems to be both because of a larger proportion of pikemen and longspearmen, and because the players are more aware and fight closer together. Really, if there was some sort of way to encourage people to refrain from spawning in, and holding W until they are in combat with enemy infantry, this problem wouldn't exist. However, it seems that a very large part of NA_1 simply refuse to listen to anyone suggesting anything to them. Likely a result of "YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO" syndrome. It really makes me facepalm when I see (and this happens very literally EVERY round) a horse charging from at least 100 meters away at a person, who continues to hold the W key until death via lance. Horses are a bit quiet and directional audio is funky, but using the louder horse sounds mod surely helps.
tl;dr: I have said nothing productive; clapping amerifats are bad at video games and should feel bad
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 29, 2012, 01:36:21 am
Then why can archers do this with 2h and polearms ?
And shielders
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on November 29, 2012, 06:09:17 pm
In the few moments that I play battle I see a max 10 cav. That's five per side, which in a server that's consitently above 70 players is very small.
Is cav really the problem? Why do so few players use it if its so OP?
Clearly the issue is not the cav, but how footmen deal with it. In an assumption, cav is much more effective when there are so few. This is the case because players do not focus or pay head, spread out and get ganked. If there were more cav, I bet you they would be less effective because player focus is to wreck them.
Simple eh?
So how do we balance cav? Communication, role dedication, and tight formations.
Sounds like typical reaction to win against cav throughout history.
I'll admit NA on a pubbie level is terribad at formation, team cohesion, and role specification.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Soldier_of_God on March 02, 2013, 05:39:43 pm
I cant get behind this because...
1.) horses are already 1 or 2 shot, if you have a armored horse, 3-5. considering its someone with a longsword, bec de corbin, or scimitar that likes to lolspin and kill your horse like it seems everyones doing.
2.) nerf bump? its really not that dangerous as it is right now, halving that would be gay.
3.) remove couching? blasphemy.
Honestly, if every horse were given like 50 more health, this wouldn't be a big issue. all it takes is one guy with a longspear or any 2h with stab and you're toast, or a lolmy old friend archer halfway across the map. as it is right now that is.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Jack1 on March 02, 2013, 06:30:31 pm
Just leave cav how it is.
Especially agents the whole nerf plated cav so they take 2-3 hits thing. You don't pay 4.5k upkeep to last one more hit then any other horse
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Carthan on March 05, 2013, 01:02:06 am
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on March 05, 2013, 01:21:30 pm
As someone who has played cavalry for 5 straight generations I feel that I am at least slightly licensed to talk about cavalry balance. I think increasing melee damage to horses would be ridiculous when it comes to horses like the Rouncey or Destrier. My horse already goes down if a 2H can pull off a single good swing or poke. It also takes roughly an absolute maximum of 4 arrows to take down my horse if we're talking about any high-level archer. My estimate of the normal amount of arrows it takes is closer to 3. It is sometimes frustrating to pay 2,000 upkeep on an item that people rant about (I.E. "OMG OP CAV U HAVE NO SKILL my old friend") but that can be countered by the enemy team having 2 attentive archers, 2 attentive pike players, or just knowing how to listen and use their tilde key.
Sure, I can get stupid KDRs like 20-1 when I try hard, but do you honestly think I could do that if two pikes worth their own salt were on the enemy team and paying attention? My chance of going 20-1 goes down HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGELY if (for say) Relit and Canary are on the other team.
As for lance cavalry... if couching was removed and horse bump damage was halved, I think lancer cav would be nigh-unplayable... at least I certainly wouldn't want to play it. The reason couches are good for lancer cav is because they are unblockable. If you remove that, then a lancer literally has only one direction in which they can attack. It's already stupidly easy to do a down block and make a lancer cav charging at you full speed look silly. That coupled with removing their other source of damage and ability to lance would just fuck the class. Cavalry already has to operate as a support class that relies on their team distract their enemies, don't make it totally impossible for lance cavalry to have any ability in 1v1 fights.
Can we all confess that maybe cavalry isn't as stupidly easy as people like to think?
also, please remove ranged cavalry from the game
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on March 10, 2013, 04:10:56 am
As for lance cavalry... if couching was removed and horse bump damage was halved, I think lancer cav would be nigh-unplayable... at least I certainly wouldn't want to play it. The reason couches are good for lancer cav is because they are unblockable. If you remove that, then a lancer literally has only one direction in which they can attack. It's already stupidly easy to do a down block and make a lancer cav charging at you full speed look silly. That coupled with removing their other source of damage and ability to lance would just fuck the class. Cavalry already has to operate as a support class that relies on their team distract their enemies, don't make it totally impossible for lance cavalry to have any ability in 1v1 fights.
Can we all confess that maybe cavalry isn't as stupidly easy as people like to think?
lol If couching was removed you could still bumplance, which actually takes the slightest amount of skill unlike pressing x, missing with the lance, and then taking half of someones hp with your bump. Also, lancer cav or 1h cav is insanely easy, anyone can get a 1-1 kd without even trying with a lance or a sword and a destrier.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Joker86 on March 10, 2013, 10:45:16 am
The reason couches are good for lancer cav is because they are unblockable. If you remove that, then a lancer literally has only one direction in which they can attack. It's already stupidly easy to do a down block and make a lancer cav charging at you full speed look silly. That coupled with removing their other source of damage and ability to lance would just fuck the class.
You would be as bad as those lancers without horse, called hoplites. The only difference to those lancers without horse would be that you have a horse.
On a more serious note: if hoplites can play properly and have a positive K/D, you can, too. You still got your horse which grants you flexibility in a lot of situations, which is actually invaluable.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: XyNox on March 10, 2013, 03:48:27 pm
IMO cav has the same problem as xbow hybrids. Just a few points into riding and some gold ( which doesnt matter anymore as we all know ) and voila, you are now cav. There are no real sacrifices that come along with cav as for example for throwers or archers.
Cav might not be able to deal with a piker and an archer simultaniously for example but at what price ? A single cav can speed through the map and will sooner or later find someone who is not aware, which then results into 1 hit backstab kill. Enemies who ARE aware can simply be avoided by superior mobility. To counter cav however you need multiple players to work together and watch each others backs, who also have to sacrifice some fighting potential by switching your favourite bec de corbin or GLA for a long stabby horse rearing support weapon for example.
Even when you kill the horse, the rider might stand up with a good amount of HP left and a completely viable shielder build. Buying a horse as it is is a straight up UPGRADE to any footsoldier without a horse. Needless to say you get a free crushthrough knockdown charge by just running people over.
And although this is all theoretical stuff, the same holds true in the field. Cav team = autowin. Especially on EU4 with low population, there is absolutely no reason to play if the enemy team is cav stacking, as one cav has simply the same killing and supporting power as 2 footsoldiers from the other team. You get completely facerolled.
Just split horse requirements into riding points for speed and "riding wpf" for manoeuvrability/acceleration. This way you have to choose between actually different cav builds:
- Much riding points, no riding wpf build:
You get the same speed as currently but heavily reduced turn rate. More planning, awareness and timing needed when approaching your target. No more last second U-turns because you saw that peasant in the corner of your eye. Preparing an attack by aligning your horse in good time is vital. Fast hit and run build.
- Minimum riding points, A ton of riding wpf build:
Can corner like a housefly but is rather slow. Good for surgical bumping or picking off enemies in group fights. Easy to handle manoeuvrability BUT at the cost of getting caught easier once the enemy is close.
- Max riding/riding wpf:
Horse handling would be equal to a high riding build you can achieve now at the cost of not having a fully maxed melee build. Very fast and manoeuvrable but more squishy.
And there you have it. Cav is now its own class that consists of more than a piece of equipment and a few skillpoints.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on March 13, 2013, 11:56:22 am
Regardless of how bad I am, your suggestions suck because ranged cavalry is a thing.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Smoothrich on March 13, 2013, 06:16:00 pm
Regardless of how bad I am, your suggestions suck because ranged cavalry is a thing.
Most of BADPLAYER's suggestions are because he exclusively plays lance cavalry, where you play 1hand and I play 2hand cavalry now so I can see all the ways his ideas would break our classes and leave lancers pretty untouched, since he's biased. Everyone knows that lancers are the main problem, its why the heavy lance was nerfed so much to begin with, and the other lances need more of a nerf. Personally I wanted to see lances become 3 slots, would make people "pure cav" just based on loadouts instead of breaking builds.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 13, 2013, 06:42:07 pm
3 slot lances is a terrible idea because it would break my 1h/shield/polearm hybrid. I should be able to hold a shield and lance, and have a sword as a sidearm (it's easily possible for someone to carry these items).
"Lances are the main problem"...what problem is that?
It's like native, khergits (on horses) are powerful on open ground, but they suck at sieges. Cavalry players are useful on open maps (they still have many counters and are very vulnerable if they put themselves in the wrong position, or if the enemy team is working together). But they are pretty much useless on sieges, and that riding skill (and possibly shield/wm) is an extra 3 or 6 or 9 strength and 1 or 2 or 3 more power strike they could have in their build.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: Smoothrich on March 13, 2013, 06:46:17 pm
3 slot lances is a terrible idea because it would break my 1h/shield/polearm hybrid. I should be able to hold a shield and lance, and have a sword as a sidearm (it's easily possible for someone to carry these items).
Tell that to xbow users who got 2 slot xbows and 1 slot bolts. Same with rus/long bows and one slot ammo. Lance is an even more effective hybrid with just riding skill then any of those. Only 2 slots though. Pikes/long spears are three slots and lances do WAY more damage and have more "power" in every round. No internal game balance.
You could scavenge a good weapon/shield on the ground. Or be full infantry by not spawning as lance cav. Instead of being entitled to fully powered infantry/lancer hybrid on loadout every round giving the best of both worlds. This is why xbows got 2 slots and people think its a good idea.
Title: Re: ~Pro Cavalry Balance~
Post by: San on March 13, 2013, 07:43:24 pm
It would force me to go to broad short sword as a side weapon. Not that much of a difference for me..
I agree that lance hybrid is one of the best in the game, though. There are no downsides at all.