cRPG
Strategus => Diplomacy => Topic started by: Lt_Anders on September 26, 2012, 02:09:31 am
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Stop this damn Locking of borders.
Trade for the independents is practically non-existant now. Big clans have locked up the major high price villages and more or less forced small traders into areas that are shit. At this point, independent trading is next to useless.
Sad thing, my castle makes tons of trades, just never has any S/D. I'm going to fix that. We need a free trader haven. Something not locked down by large clans trying to hold their S/D.
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Guess what. Clans are traders too... so we need our S&D.
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Yeah, this isn't really something that fief owners can just choose to ignore, but rather something the devs need to fix.
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I would love independent trading in our fiefs if only we wouldn't lose so much from permitting it.
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I would love independent trading in our fiefs if only we wouldn't lose so much from permitting it.
and that's the problem. You lose to much letting independants come around. The tax is nice, but in NO way makes up for the negative cost of losing s/d.
My castle never has over 100 S/D now. I don't care as it's a free spot for traders and I'll NEVER change that. But it sucks, I can't sell MY goods cause no one has S/D or they locked down borders.
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ya its just without a high tax there is nothing the fief owners gain from independent trade, and its much easier to attack the little guys rather than waste points on taxes
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Tell ya what, give me a week and we'll designate one of our fiefs strictly for trading to it. Assuming we get a good tax rate in that fief, we will do it and let you know when we do.
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Yeah, this isn't really something that fief owners can just choose to ignore, but rather something the devs need to fix.
This. This this this and this a million times.
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I hereby declare my booty off-limits to all NA clans except by legal writ.
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Yeah, this isn't really something that fief owners can just choose to ignore, but rather something the devs need to fix.
I wouldnt actually consider this to be a problem. With S&D land and having more fiefs is actually important, having alot of land was pointless in 3.0. More land equals more money, this will drive factions to play more aggressively which is a good thing.
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S&D is still high in the desert! Come on down to Shariz!
Well Shariz itself is kind of locked down, but nearby castles and villages offer good prices (and distance bonuses) for buying and selling.
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I wouldnt actually consider this to be a problem. With S&D land and having more fiefs is actually important, having alot of land was pointless in 3.0. More land equals more money, this will drive factions to play more aggressively which is a good thing.
But Lemmy Winks, what if a clan has only 1 member (lets say you Lemmy Winks) and that members has only 1 fief (lets say for example, oh I don't know, Faraway Ibiran) to trade in, all the rest are closed borders and then that 1 fief is taken from him. How will he make money to ever take land again with S&D screwed up the way it is? Obviously this is just a hypothetical example as you still have a fief, you do own Faraway Ibiran, right? So how do you expect independent traders to make it once they have no fiefs and all the other fiefs are inaccessible?
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I think S&D should just regen quicker, seems too slow at base 200 prosperity per day. Maybe base should be bumped to 300?
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Independant traders boned? Maybe you might, god forbid, make trade agreements with the owners of fiefs? You know, like offering to pay their exorbitant taxes to let you sell your stuff there?
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I think S&D should just regen quicker, seems too slow at base 200 prosperity per day. Maybe base should be bumped to 300?
Well its only low for fiefs with around <=8 and >=20 prices. Standard 15 gold-fiefs have 2000 or more S&D left, because no one visits them.
One idea might be to split the S&D up into internal S&D (can be used only by clan-members) and external S&D (can be used only by non-clan-members). That would also stop fief owners from whining if someone buys their fief empty (eh, Herkutatti :wink:). Internal S&D should be much lower ofc, so you're forced to trade with others.
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But Lemmy Winks, what if a clan has only 1 member (lets say you Lemmy Winks) and that members has only 1 fief (lets say for example, oh I don't know, Faraway Ibiran) to trade in, all the rest are closed borders and then that 1 fief is taken from him.
Who would dare attack him? ...OH IC
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Independant traders boned? Maybe you might, god forbid, make trade agreements with the owners of fiefs? You know, like offering to pay their exorbitant taxes to let you sell your stuff there?
Of course I do make sure I get permission. But it's stupid. I'd do better just raiding people than being a legit trader. Either that or Mercanary company.
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I think the system works perfectly fine as it is. There's plenty of 15 and 18 gold fiefs out there with 1000+ S&D. Hospitallers have not said we're locking down our borders, nor has KUTT as far as I know. Tulbuk Castle is at 20 gold price and has 1800 S&D. Sungetche Castle is at 18 gold price (should be 19 or 20 today) and is at 1300 S&D.
You might have to sell for only 15 gold (default) at a fief, but if you're getting 300% bonus (or even 200%) you should be able to make a hefty profit.
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That too, people need to be a bit less greedy about only selling in 23-25 cost fiefs. There's tons of 750-1500 S&D fiefs on map around 15 price.
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You see that's a problem. Why make 15g per good when I can get 10 more per good by locking out others thereby making(at bonus) 20-40 more per good than at that cost.
Yes you can make SUPERIOR trades with the 15g but it doesn't bring in the profit that a 20g does. It's economics simply.
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And if you want to make money, you have to have a demand for your supplies. If not, you don't make money. Economics.
You can be a stickler about trying to sell at the 24-25 gold fiefs, but everyone is trying to sell there, over-saturating the market. You might have to sell for less, or wait until there's more demand...
Like I said, there's a lot of fiefs even higher than the default 15 gold good price (but lower than 23/24/25) that have high hundreds, into the 1000's for demand of goods. You might have to sell at one of these, just like the big factions might have to start doing that as well (I Know I will have to when I get back to our territory).
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Strat 4: Where everyone all of a sudden has a masters in economics.
"It's economics simply."
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I never took economics, so take what I say with a grain of salt...but it seems like what I'm saying is common sense.
Or you could get a bunch of horses and sneak into faction territory at 3am and buy or sell a bunch of goods and GTFO before they wake up.
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I never took economics, so take what I say with a grain of salt...but it seems like what I'm saying is common sense.
Or you could get a bunch of horses and sneak into faction territory at 3am and buy or sell a bunch of goods and GTFO before they wake up.
I personally would enjoy this as you know certain people or clans would go full on sperg mode
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If someone is sitting on a lot of S&D and 25 good price, and I was heading that way with goods on a nice F.A.G. bonus I'd just blow through his "closed borders" and sell anyways.
Chance I might get intercepted but If I am moving fast due to having a lot of horses (and possibly hitting quickmarch) it's gonna be hard unless there is some observant and well armed sentry perfectly placed to intercept me. If he misses, what's he gonna do attack me on the way out? I have no more goods to steal, he can't take my gold, and assuming the trader is decently armed, all Mr. Closed Border is gonna get is an expensive fight, lose hundreds of soldiers and tens of thousands of gold worth of gear just to teach me a moral lesson? The people who do go to all this effort of actively guarding S&D are going to find it very costly in both battle costs and opportunity costs, so let them, they'll fall behind doing it.
I say this to traders: Don't be scared by "closed borders", these threats of hanging you are emptier than they seem. It's very difficult and very costly to intercept and beat a fast moving (horse equipped) and well armed trader. Just keep chasing that S&D, the payoff outweighs the risk especially where some fools are trying to hoard it (and especially S&D in high price good fiefs).
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I wasn't finding any cheap goods near me that had 100's of S&D, and was friendly or neutral. I had to go and buy a bunch of goods on the border fief of an enemy faction from last strat. They've made no announcements about protecting their S&D, but I figured they wouldn't take it too kindly either...so luckily I was able to time it that I arrived at 3am...I was hesitant to set an alarm on my phone...didn't want to wake my wife up for a video game, but also luckily, my internal clock woke me up to piss at like 4am :D
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I say this to traders: Don't be scared by "closed borders", these threats of hanging you are emptier than they seem. It's very difficult and very costly to intercept and beat a fast moving (horse equipped) and well armed trader.
It's really not. Even a mounted caravan can easily be caught by mounted chasers carrying no crates. A foot caravan has no chance at all of making it through if anyone on the other end is watching, and the fight is always worth it when you take the goods.
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It's really not. Even a mounted caravan can easily be caught by mounted chasers carrying no crates. A foot caravan has no chance at all of making it through if anyone on the other end is watching, and the fight is always worth it when you take the goods.
It can be caught, but probably not worth it to fight as long as the merchant is only carrying a moderate amount of goods.
If the merchant has 200 armed soldiers, carrying 150 goods. Assuming 150x25x3 is worth about 11,000 gold. meanwhile to beat such a decently armed caravan in field, assuming 1:1 kill ratio and even equip value, you'd lose over 20,000 worth of gear + 200 soldiers.
So to punish the intruder and protect your precious 150 S&D, you just spent close to net 15,000 gold, not to mention the opportunity cost of more productive activities that interceptor party could have been doing.
To enforce your closed borders will be costing much more than is offset by the sale of seized goods.
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Fuck it, run through those trade embargoes
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If someone is sitting on a lot of S&D and 25 good price, and I was heading that way with goods on a nice F.A.G. bonus I'd just blow through his "closed borders" and sell anyways.
Chance I might get intercepted but If I am moving fast due to having a lot of horses (and possibly hitting quickmarch) it's gonna be hard unless there is some observant and well armed sentry perfectly placed to intercept me. If he misses, what's he gonna do attack me on the way out? I have no more goods to steal, he can't take my gold, and assuming the trader is decently armed, all Mr. Closed Border is gonna get is an expensive fight, lose hundreds of soldiers and tens of thousands of gold worth of gear just to teach me a moral lesson? The people who do go to all this effort of actively guarding S&D are going to find it very costly in both battle costs and opportunity costs, so let them, they'll fall behind doing it.
I say this to traders: Don't be scared by "closed borders", these threats of hanging you are emptier than they seem. It's very difficult and very costly to intercept and beat a fast moving (horse equipped) and well armed trader. Just keep chasing that S&D, the payoff outweighs the risk especially where some fools are trying to hoard it (and especially S&D in high price good fiefs).
All its gonna do is make you look like an asshole that is above everyone else which will ultimately lead the people you wronged to come over your nice little area of the map and wipe the floor with you leaving you with nothing in the process
Good way of thinking champ.
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It can be caught, but probably not worth it to fight as long as the merchant is only carrying a moderate amount of goods.
If the merchant has 200 armed soldiers, carrying 150 goods. Assuming 150x25x3 is worth about 11,000 gold. meanwhile to beat such a decently armed caravan in field, assuming 1:1 kill ratio and even equip value, you'd lose over 20,000 worth of gear + 200 soldiers.
So to punish the intruder and protect your precious 150 S&D, you just spent close to net 15,000 gold, not to mention the opportunity cost of more productive activities that interceptor party could have been doing.
To enforce your closed borders will be costing much more than is offset by the sale of seized goods.
What about all of the cav they get from winning the battle.
also:
25 sittin on 25 mill S&D
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Of course I do make sure I get permission. But it's stupid. I'd do better just raiding people than being a legit trader. Either that or Mercanary company.
The invention of banditry/piracy. Didn't think it would take so long.
Risk vs Reward. Yes you make more as a bandit, but people hate you and want to stabificate you.
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What about all of the cav they get from winning the battle.
also:
I was calculating for a no-cav merchant, if there's 200 horses involved merchant could lose more obviously especially if he can't hire many cav mercs for battle (although if he can, will be even more painful for his attackers to bring him down). Up to merchant to decide if its worth risk/reward in investing in a train of expensive horses.
All its gonna do is make you look like an asshole that is above everyone else which will ultimately lead the people you wronged to come over your nice little area of the map and wipe the floor with you leaving you with nothing in the process
Good way of thinking champ.
So the biggest beneficiaries to border running are small clans/merchants who have no home fiefs to strike at in retaliation.
Also even if it's a landholding clan ignoring your border and trade rules... What you gonna do march armies across map? And start a large war (if allies enter the fight) over your precious S&D points? That will certainly get expensive, more expensive than what your points are worth!
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It can be caught, but probably not worth it to fight as long as the merchant is only carrying a moderate amount of goods.
If the merchant has 200 armed soldiers, carrying 150 goods. Assuming 150x25x3 is worth about 11,000 gold. meanwhile to beat such a decently armed caravan in field, assuming 1:1 kill ratio and even equip value, you'd lose over 20,000 worth of gear + 200 soldiers.
So to punish the intruder and protect your precious 150 S&D, you just spent close to net 15,000 gold, not to mention the opportunity cost of more productive activities that interceptor party could have been doing.
To enforce your closed borders will be costing much more than is offset by the sale of seized goods.
You're forgetting one thing. Anyone who tries to steal from us is our enemy. Therefore to determine the net outcome of the battle, you need to subtract their losses from ours. The loot we gain from winning means we'll always come out ahead.
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I did... The loot doesn't replace your losses. So waylaying a merchant for breaking your border rules diminishes you in relation to other factions.
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I did... The loot doesn't replace your losses. So waylaying a merchant for breaking your border rules diminishes you in relation to other factions.
I think okin is saying you arent factoring in the enjoyment of killing those who are robbing from you.
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I think okin is saying you arent factoring in the enjoyment of killing those who are robbing from you.
Why else would there be traders apart from me killing them?
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I did... The loot doesn't replace your losses.
It doesn't need to. Observe:
Battle outcome = Their losses - Our losses + Battle loot + S&D preserved
That will never end up negative.
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You are double counting the loot + S&D, since presumably you'd be cashing the loot in with your S&D (that they were aiming for).
Also if they are just random traders their losses are basically meaningless to you if you're a large landholding clan presumably fighting with other large clans. Again assuming they have 200 armed troops and 150 goods, and the battle was 1:1 kd, you still lost roughly net 20,000 gold to protect your border & S&D from someone who is basically harmless. He may have lost more (over 30,000, cuz your losses are slightly compensated by the goods), but that still doesn't bring back your absolute losses. Defeating armed traders will be a costly business unless they are absolutely loaded with goods, he'd need to be carrying 450 goods with 200 troops for you to break even.
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Refer to my earlier post re: enemies. Furthermore, by killing their party and gear (assuming they have proper gear), you're also destroying their capability to keep stealing from you, so potential future S&D savings there.
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If he's a small, armed trade it would just take him a week to recruit troops back. One assumes he already has enough gold to replace gear losses instantly (not difficult for an individual to have made 30,000 already since start of strat 4).
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If he's a small, armed trade it would just take him a week to recruit troops back. One assumes he already has enough gold to replace gear losses instantly (not difficult for an individual to have made 30,000 already since start of strat 4).
You think a small armed trader can compete with a large clan on any aspect of strat?
I already know your answer to this, something along the lines of the large clan, nordsmen in this case could use their resources better then fighting this trader*, which is true. But you can say that about fighting in strat in general, and that would be boring as shit and defeat the purpose of playing a video game.
*Atleast by the economic definition, trade requires (atleast) two voluntary parties. That isn't really the case in which you are buying/selling goods when the fief owners don't want you to do it.
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That makes them smugglers :D
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That's true, but at least a small rogue trader would has the option of poaching S&D, and it makes sense too, he is basically fullfilling the role of a smuggler (edit, beaten by Huseby), running demanded goods into an area where its restricted by the sovereign power who attempting to enforce mercantalist policies.
This small time smuggler also has ingame efficiency on his side, because to stop him it will cost the sovereign more than he gains. The landholder has the resources of course to keep crushing all these runners, but it still hurts him in absolute terms and weakens his power making him more vulnerable to actual rival powers.
That is why my original message to these small traders back on the past pages was don't be scared by threats of closed borders, go in well armed, and with modest cargoes and take the risk to poach that S&D, you'll have fun doing it, there's a decent chance you won't get caught, and even if you are, the cost of destroying you outweighs the value of protecting S&D so its a material loss for landholders and weakends them vs their real rivals. Resisting trade blockades is not futile.
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You make a lot of assumptions. One of them seems to be that no matter how many we crush, there will be an infinite supply of traders who keep coming our way.
I don't think that's the case. If it was me, I'd go somewhere easier. Sounds like Norse Horde lands would be a great place, nobody watching the S&D there. :wink:
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I own a castle, and I don't care about the S/D Anyone can buy/sell there. Free Traders Haven! All Free Traders welcome.
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You make a lot of assumptions. One of them seems to be that no matter how many we crush, there will be an infinite supply of traders who keep coming our way.
I don't think that's the case. If it was me, I'd go somewhere easier. Sounds like Norse Horde lands would be a great place, nobody watching the S&D there. :wink:
If you are consistently leaving 300+ S&D on a 25 price fief, I do tend to assume people will be drawn to try and poach it. I would.
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300 S&D is only 100 S&D usable at ideal conditions. Hardly worth poaching.
My advice to any trader worth their salt is to contact a faction you see in the area with a lot of S&D and request to use a small portion of it. People are much more willing to part with 100 S&D in exchange for 10% tax than 1000. You can carry multiple trade goods, so making a large circle of the map while trading in smaller portions can work just as well or even better than trying to buy and sell en masse.
Oh and if someone does want you there? Just move on. There are a lot of fiefs in the sea. Or fish on the land. Something like that.
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strat has turned into a trading/diplo sim as well as war! Very nice! :lol: Let the trade wars.. BEGIN! NO CARE BARE CLAN IS SAFE ! MWAHAHA
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Yeah, this isn't really something that fief owners can just choose to ignore, but rather something the devs need to fix.
This. Kind of hard for independet traders to go around and trade since most of the fiefs are locked due to factions saving S&D
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Only cure I can think of is to raise the distance penalty and add chance to recruit while upping good prices abit.
Distance penalty will enable neutral traders to travel farther with no worries of war bounderies (sept bandits or shit head clans)
Take away auto recruit so less huge big man size armies but same time raise price of equipment a little. Maybe Im wrong about the 2nd and 3rd parts but pretty sure about the 1st one.
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GOing to bump this for 1 comment.
All you people whoring your S&D, how's it working for you? Just buff the taxes on the your fiefs and guess what you make money for doing NOTHING! Seems like no one wants to actually set up trade centers and instead just do what uneducated people do, don't let anyone take your stuff.
Stop following the idiocy, OPEN YOUR BORDERS TODAY! Join the Open Border Revolution and PROFIT!