cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Torben on September 06, 2012, 07:11:46 pm

Title: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on September 06, 2012, 07:11:46 pm
It might be fun to have strategus battles (not sieges)  work like the crpg battles,  having the two armies clash in several rounds instead of the respawning death match type we got atm.

although fighting over strategic key locations will not be focused that much anymore,  it might help get an organized real battle feeling to it.

just remember how the multi clan tournaments were and how epic it would be, if strategus battles could become like this.

short version with electronic music:

long version:
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: sF_Guardian on September 06, 2012, 07:17:18 pm
It might be fun to have strategus battles (not sieges)  work like the crpg battles,  having the two armies clash in several rounds instead of the respawning death match type we got atm.

although fighting over strategic key locations will not be focused that much anymore,  it might help get an organized real battle feeling to it.

just remember how the multi clan tournaments were and how epic it would be, if strategus battles could become like this.

enjoy.

The music kinda ruins the vid :( But yeah, I`m personally not with this suggestion, strat battles are nice as they are, degrading them to normal battles is just... mhe :/
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: ThePoopy on September 06, 2012, 07:19:05 pm
yes with retreat option at eny of your teams flags, and if they get dissabled u cant retreat
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: BDsaysHi on September 06, 2012, 07:19:43 pm
I quite like your suggestion over the mob tactics of the siege fights in strategus.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on September 06, 2012, 07:21:57 pm
The music kinda ruins the vid :( But yeah, I`m personally not with this suggestion, strat battles are nice as they are, degrading them to normal battles is just... mhe :/

put up the long version with other music just for you :*
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: sF_Guardian on September 06, 2012, 07:22:51 pm
put up the long version with other music just for you :*

Danke :P
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Teeth on September 06, 2012, 07:33:07 pm
Fully agreed, the respawns make strategus battles into boring grindfests, where tactical decisions and organisation have no impact at all and favourable position, number of tickets, equipment quality and roster quality always decide the outcome. That and the fact that people not respawn all the time will make the end of battles super intense. Watching the last 3 of your side duke it out with the last 3 of the other side. You can taste the tension.

Just divide total ticket number by 120 or whatever the max players is and divide the number of each side's tickets with the ticket/player ratio.

2000 vs 1500. 3500 / 120 = 29.
2000 / 29 = 69 players
1500 / 29 = 52 players

If you feel like 1 round is too short for such high stakes divide tickets by 10 and do multiple rounds until one side runs out of tickets. A battle with 3500 tickets total would take about 3 rounds then. Or do not do actual rounds but reinforcement waves at a set time, so that every 3 minutes everyone who died respaws and a new stage of the battle starts. Would be tactically interesting.

What we have now is fucking boring, thats for sure.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on September 06, 2012, 08:05:35 pm
(click to show/hide)

have been thinking about spawn waves as well, cant decide what i like better atm.
a small group holding a key position until the reenforcements come must be just as fun as fighting it out over the last few men.

but you are right.  atm crpg battles CAN be very cool if done correctly (especially the friendly not spawnraping policy of the just for fun battles atm),  but almost always,  they are an uncivilized gangbang.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on September 06, 2012, 08:34:34 pm
thread added to this:

http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/strat-improvement-idea-collection/
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: OssumPawesome on September 07, 2012, 08:55:52 pm
While I don't think this would be bad, I certainly don't think it would be an improvement on the current battles.  The fighting for strategic points and rooftops and constant action is just right as it is.  And what are we going to do for 1k vs 1k matches?  take 2 hours? no thanks.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on November 27, 2012, 09:52:51 am
hhmm?
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Malaclypse on November 27, 2012, 10:17:08 am
Could be cool, but would be really nice to add TDM to regular play more than ever if it were implemented; gotta get it in here somewhere, and right now Strat battles (and I guess Rageball) are the only place to find anything resembling TDM.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Rumblood on November 27, 2012, 02:57:03 pm
I think that I would prefer the series of clashes as well. Time constraints would indeed be an issue though with large armies.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Falka on November 27, 2012, 03:57:26 pm
(click to show/hide)

Battle with 2 k tickets. Round 1. Team A kills everyone except 1 guy from team B, takes all flags, kills last guy, wins. The end.
I like it!  :wink:
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: no_rules_just_play on November 27, 2012, 04:34:38 pm
damn i voted no, but i meant yes.
altough for sieges this seems quiet stupid to me, look at how hard it is to get up a ladder before it gets destroyed, if you do this round per round the ladders will never get up.
for battle this could be epic, more teamplay etc.
but what if you want to build stuff?
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on November 27, 2012, 04:55:45 pm
damn i voted no, but i meant yes.
altough for sieges this seems quiet stupid to me, look at how hard it is to get up a ladder before it gets destroyed, if you do this round per round the ladders will never get up.
for battle this could be epic, more teamplay etc.
but what if you want to build stuff?

... to have strategus battles (not sieges)  work like the crpg battles...[/youtube]

build stuff?   defenders would have prep phase,  attackers would have a hard time  : )
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Haboe on November 27, 2012, 05:27:54 pm
No, battles would have less strategic play this way. Now you have to capture key-points like hills to have an advantage, build forward spawns, and if yo uwant to do crazy you can build a siege tower for your archers. At the same time you also have to keep your formations so that your spawn will not be taken. (prep fase each round for defenders will make everyone rage about boring battles)

If you make it like normal battles you simply have to fight and kill. No one would care about spawn defending, so most strategy would be taken out of strat battles.

Which is in my point a pretty important aspect in strategus.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on November 27, 2012, 05:35:11 pm
No, battles would have less strategic play this way. Now you have to capture key-points like hills to have an advantage, build forward spawns, and if yo uwant to do crazy you can build a siege tower for your archers. At the same time you also have to keep your formations so that your spawn will not be taken. (prep fase each round for defenders will make everyone rage about boring battles)

If you make it like normal battles you simply have to fight and kill. No one would care about spawn defending, so most strategy would be taken out of strat battles.

Which is in my point a pretty important aspect in strategus.


maybe linking the different battle phases to achieved goals?  kind of a conquest/battle strat hybrid..
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Haboe on November 27, 2012, 07:14:54 pm
Or make it stronghold mod :P Gold = resources.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Teeth on November 27, 2012, 09:24:57 pm
No, battles would have less strategic play this way. Now you have to capture key-points like hills to have an advantage, build forward spawns, and if yo uwant to do crazy you can build a siege tower for your archers. At the same time you also have to keep your formations so that your spawn will not be taken. (prep fase each round for defenders will make everyone rage about boring battles)

If you make it like normal battles you simply have to fight and kill. No one would care about spawn defending, so most strategy would be taken out of strat battles.

Which is in my point a pretty important aspect in strategus.
In the current Strategus strategy as the depth of a puddle, compared to what battle would have if everyone was on teamspeak. Really? Building forward spawns, camping hills and building siege towers for archers is what you see as deep strategy?

In the case of no respawns tactics get a whole new level. If the enemy fails to protect their ranged and you manage to kill them with a well timed cav charge, their ranged is gone for good instead of respawning 5 seconds later. If you manage to divide the enemy's force and overwhelm half of it, they will not respawn to full strength in a matter of seconds, you might very well have secured victory. Every action matters when there are no respawns. You manage to headshot their top player at the start and he is out for good. You have to take extreme care and think about every action. Just like real field battles of old.

It is not simply killing the enemy, it is trying to get an advantage by exploiting weaknesses of the enemy, using proper formations, fighting as a team, properly coordinating all 3 classes with that advantage actually having an effect on the outcome of the battle. Winning a battle in current Strategus really comes down to gear, tickets and who gets spawned at the better side of the map. Every smart tactical ploy you do now, has no effect cause they respawn.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: chadz on November 27, 2012, 10:08:22 pm
I really see your point Teeth, and I really agree with your statements, but the problem is that you will gather 100 players on a server to play for, probably, 3 to 5 minutes then, after waiting 3 to 5 minutes until the battle starts.

Sounds too much like premature ejaculation to me.

But maybe we can come up with a solution for that.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 27, 2012, 10:21:55 pm
How about making it somewhat more wave based? It'd need some sorta unconscious system like in native singleplayer to make it work though...
Let's say wave one, both teams spawn with all their players, team A kills all of team B, team A then gets to resurrect a small percentage of their dead after the battle or after an amount of minutes. It'd make winning the waves matter a lot as they'd save a percentage of their troops, get the loot for said wave, and perhaps give them the "defender" status for the next wave.

A wave system would also allow for battles with more troops in total as you could for example have the first "part" of the battle be one or two hours, then 24 hours later have the battle continuing until someone wins. This way having 3000+ troops won't make you an army unbeatable in one attack on you.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Teeth on November 27, 2012, 10:33:06 pm
I really see your point Teeth, and I really agree with your statements, but the problem is that you will gather 100 players on a server to play for, probably, 3 to 5 minutes then, after waiting 3 to 5 minutes until the battle starts.

Sounds too much like premature ejaculation to me.

But maybe we can come up with a solution for that.
That is just one problem. One might ask though if 1-2 hour battles are really all that more desirable compared to 3-10 minutes.

There is some other major problems with Strategus without respawns. I don't see how castle sieges would ever be won by the attackers like this and I expect endless hillcamping to reign supreme. Frankly I don't think no respawns is a viable idea until we are able to actually do 2000 vs 2000 battles. Glad that you are willing to consider it though, instead of rejecting it at the first sign of trouble.

Best closest thing would probably be a system similar to the way big battles are handled in singleplayer. A reinforcement wave that spawns as soon as there is a certain number of soldiers alive, alternatively a set time interval could be used. This adds natural attack waves and also adds some tactical depth by requiring you to properly deal with waiting on your reinforcements or withstanding the arrival of theirs.

Another alternative is multiple rounds without respawns. Anything that breaks the meatgrinding deathmatch.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2012, 02:28:15 am
Yeah multiple rounds is good idea. (With a maximum of 8?)

Then the commanders would be learning for each round, and adapt to the terrain and their actions, troop combos etc.. Would be very interesting. Idea sounds repetitive, but it is not. I imagine most rounds would be different from the last as commanders try new strategies to win.

As a sidenote, it would also be interesting to put a much higher amount of tickets on the commanders head. So protecting (and killing) him becomes an important part of the battle. (20% of tickets? More?)
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on November 28, 2012, 08:46:56 am
much higher amount of tickets on the commanders head. So protecting (and killing) him becomes an important part of the battle. (20% of tickets? More?)


nice
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: chadz on November 28, 2012, 09:35:32 am
I actually like Zlisch's idea (I am surprised myself).

Every time you die in strat, you have a random chance to either be knocked out (=respawn) or be killed (=gone for the battle). The random chance is defined by the size of your army (so a big army has a higher chance of respawning). The chance increases every time you get knocked out.

Eg battle 1000 vs 1000.
1. Death: 95% KO Chance
2. Death -90% KO Chance -5%
3. Death -85% KO Chance -5%
4. Death -80% KO Chance -5%
5. Death -75% KO Chance -5%
6. Death -70% KO Chance -5%
7. Death -65% KO Chance -5%
etc

This means that getting killed means something, every single time, because there is always a chance you'll end up dead.

At the same time, remove the increasing respawn timer per death and make respawns take a tad longer for the KOd (30 seconds). Also, spawn in waves when 40% or so of your group are KOd.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 28, 2012, 03:52:10 pm
I actually like Zlisch's idea (I am surprised myself).

Every time you die in strat, you have a random chance to either be knocked out (=respawn) or be killed (=gone for the battle). The random chance is defined by the size of your army (so a big army has a higher chance of respawning). The chance increases every time you get knocked out.

Eg battle 1000 vs 1000.
1. Death: 95% KO Chance
2. Death -90% KO Chance -5%
3. Death -85% KO Chance -5%
4. Death -80% KO Chance -5%
5. Death -75% KO Chance -5%
6. Death -70% KO Chance -5%
7. Death -65% KO Chance -5%
etc

This means that getting killed means something, every single time, because there is always a chance you'll end up dead.

At the same time, remove the increasing respawn timer per death and make respawns take a tad longer for the KOd (30 seconds). Also, spawn in waves when 40% or so of your group are KOd.
I'm wondering if you misunderstood me (I realize I worded a part of it quite poorly), or just proposed something vastly different... but no mater, your idea is quite good but I do see a few glaring holes in it.

It'll occasionally make people refuse to follow important instructions and going to that important place to die that important death due to missing out on a load of exp.
It'll still keep a "troop limit", as having more than x troops would be useless when all your players would be gone (while such a limit is already there, and this is vastly better than the current one as it doesn't just affect defenders then it's still a limit).
Balancing something off chance for a skillbased game is always somewhat bad, as team 1 could potentially all get kicked on their first death while team 2's players survive 9 deaths.
This would make some sort of retreating system even more needed than it is now.

Besides those things it's a great idea though.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2012, 04:15:12 pm
I'm against respawns.. Even in waves as this could quickly result in spawnrapes, or chaos at spawn. (Which is not that interesting)

(Again, look at singleplayer where this happens all the time. Kill off first wave, then set up xbowmen/archers in crossfire right outside their spawn)

Also the respawn system creates this constant stream of fresh troops that nullifies encirclement etc.. It basically takes out most of the tactics, no matter how you look at it.

Better then to have series of battles on the same map. It opens up for so many choices. Commander could tell part of the army to become hoplites next round, then maulers the next etc.. Both tactics and troop composition would be dynamic. A good team of players could loose to a commander who got his troop composition right i.ex, or had simply a better mix prepared, compared to a commander with more money, but a more rigid composition.

But most importantly.. solve the lag issues! I cannot fathom why it still exists. If one could fix that, then I see us having 200 player battles in series.

Take the stupidity out of strat battles.. We all crave it :)
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: chadz on November 28, 2012, 04:16:28 pm
Yeah, yours was different, I dropped those parts out of my suggestions that I didn't like :)

I was referring to the knocking out part actually.

However, I already received a lot of backlash for my suggestion, because too random, and a heavy penalty for randomness on top, so I'd probably retract my idea as too radical :)
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Thomek on November 28, 2012, 04:20:48 pm
btw chadz.. Could you elaborate on the problem of lag in strat battles and why it happens? :)

It has been a mystery to me..
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 28, 2012, 04:30:58 pm
Still think your idea beats the current system though, would just need a few edits to fix the issues with it.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on November 28, 2012, 11:25:18 pm
I don't think it's a problem on the EU servers, but NA_3 turns into a disgusting unplayable lagfest in large battles. This would certainly help with that, I reckon.

Or, you know, you could open up donations specifically for a new NA_3. All amerifats don't spend their paychecks on McDonalds days after receiving them.

Just most of us.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on November 29, 2012, 06:28:06 pm
I like the reinforcement idea, but spawn raping would be to easy. Perhaps the commander has control over when to impart reinforcement at key moments?

I don't play battle because:
 -You sit and wait for minutes after death (I play the game to play, not sit eat cheetos and watch)
-You have to Chase every asshole with 9 athletics or a horse to win
-It slows down the engagements between players because of fear of death (boring to play when the first 3 minutes of the battle is manuevering)

So, no. It's a crappy idea and would make strat battles less appealing.

It would buff archery inadvertainly because archers have a higher survivabilty in strategus. So, everyone and their mother will be an archer.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Butan on November 30, 2012, 06:28:30 am
Not sure how this would work with current flag system and siege equipment !
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Teeth on November 30, 2012, 12:36:40 pm
I don't play battle because:
 -You sit and wait for minutes after death (I play the game to play, not sit eat cheetos and watch)
-It slows down the engagements between players because of fear of death (boring to play when the first 3 minutes of the battle is manuevering)
Exactly what makes battle great. Good players survive, pick their fights, take calculated risks because if they die they have to wait. It adds a huge layer of skill. If you are a good player, you usually don't spend that much time waiting. I presume you play siege then, but with either the 30 second respawn timer or otherwise having to walk to the castle again with each death, I think I would not spend that much less time waiting in siege as in battle. This fear of death is exactly why strategy and tactics will play a bigger role, because now who cares if some people die, they will be back in a second. Current strategus is just deathmatch and your hulk smash mentality might appreciate that, but I know a lot of people would like something deeper.

It would buff archery inadvertainly because archers have a higher survivabilty in strategus. So, everyone and their mother will be an archer.
Wrong, archers have higher survivability in current strategus because of the respawns. The melee line always respawns to protect them, while they are comfortably behind it. If respawns are taken away, the melee line might get its ass beat and archers will be vulnerable and die. Just like in regular battle. Or because taking out ranged means dealing a heavy blow to the enemy, some mass cav attacks or clever tactical moves might be aimed especially at the ranged to wipe them out.

Not sure how this would work with current flag system and siege equipment !
When thinking of a different strategus battle system, or new ideas in general, it is important to forget everything you know and think about it from the ground up. Otherwise you will never get a good new approach cause you are bogged down with current mechanics that might not transfer over well.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on November 30, 2012, 01:36:25 pm
teeth is doing a great job in saying just about anything I would respond,  cheers.

Personally,  I think it is the single important feature to create a permadeath situation for a given round to make real tactical gameplay viable.

Everyone remember this is especially about battles,  as sieges would need some other solution to work.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Smoothrich on November 30, 2012, 02:09:41 pm
Turn Strategus battles into Battle mode and you will drive 99 percent of the playerbase that still has fun in the game away because Battle gameplay is probably the main reason the game has always been rather unpopular (its terrible except for niche tryhard nerds).  Its just gameplay stolen from a mod like Counter-Strike that is horribly balanced for a game of this sort but lazily slapped on the engine for turkish profit. 

Bravely lead a charge as infantry, get headshotted or couched, enjoy not playing for 1-2 hours.  Even 5 minutes of not playing because of an early death like that in Battle I've seen cause gen 10+ players to uninstall the game and not come back, because of how unfun it is.

Every strat battle is a siege by the way.  Open plains, defense camps their spawn, offense takes tons of casualties just closing the distance.  I'm pretty confident most people posting here in support of perma death in Strat battles do not play Strategus and are speaking as a vocal, slim minority.

The moment I die in the first minutes of an hour+ long Strategus battle and couldn't respawn I would immediately stop putting up with the bullshit of Strategus map mechanics and diplomacy, because there is a lot of effort involved to get to what is actually fun, and changes of this nature would make it nothing but sadistic "hardcore gamer" bullshit in a slapped on lazy way that would never be worth playing for the majority of people.

The fun part of Strat battles is territory control, maneuver, getting ranged in a good spot, using cav to disrupt enemy maneuver or ranged, coordinating two flanks of an army to pincer, cav cutting down routed players after a failed charge.  None of this shit exists in Battle mode because it is just blobs of heavy armor/strength builds clashing and people instantly dying, along with kiting ranged and cav being solo heroes that can avoid most danger.

These "tactics" people wishfully long for happen constantly in the Strategus battle system, the only problem is how difficult it is for offense to hold ground due to close proximity of defense spawn flags to fighting, unless there is a big gear discrepancy.  This matters less for Town maps due to the sprawling nature of them, and are the perfect example of Strat gameplay working wonderfully and being a massive improvement over anything else in cRPG.

The main focus of Strategus right now should be fixing all of the horrible bugs, like walls that never come down, construction sites that don't work, catapults that don't fire, siege towers that don't go down, that kills the game more than any crying about "TDM NOOB GAMES" by a handful of tryhards.  Also add battering rams, nerf pikes/longspears against ladders (or raise ladder hp) and maybe a few other things.

To make field battles more interesting you could spread out spawn flags more, so instead of defense having 1 small hill or 10 yards of flags, have the spawns stretch across the map, and have penalties happen to defense spawn rates/ticket drain or something if they don't keep most of their flags up.  This would allow attackers to attack a flank and set up forward spawns and create more intense gameplay.  Just add more ways to implement "territory control" to the game as that's the best part.  Why I pimp out "conquest mode" so much as it would be a great fit to cRPG compared to Siege or Battle.

Basically you should focus on the strengths of Strategus battles as they are, and identify/acknowledge the weaknesses of Battle which people are trolling in here about being "great."  The "fear of death" isn't fun, it means kiting, strength, armor, running away, and people quitting the game.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on November 30, 2012, 02:17:59 pm
(click to show/hide)

you seem to neither have understood my proposal nor ever attended an organized battle.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Smoothrich on November 30, 2012, 02:52:39 pm
you seem to neither have understood my proposal nor ever attended an organized battle.

I just think you have bad ideas and the proposed implementations would completely kill an already dwindling game.  Nothing personal  :D
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Torben on November 30, 2012, 03:40:23 pm
I just think you have bad ideas and the proposed implementations would completely kill an already dwindling game.  Nothing personal  :D

the very absolute and aggressive way you sell your own opinions and dismiss others sucks,  but ofc i dont take that personal.
kinda weak,  still think the mod gets to you too much.  but its better than it used to be,  so there we go : )


Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Teeth on November 30, 2012, 06:51:16 pm
The fun part of Strat battles is territory control, maneuver, getting ranged in a good spot, using cav to disrupt enemy maneuver or ranged, coordinating two flanks of an army to pincer, cav cutting down routed players after a failed charge.  None of this shit exists in Battle mode because it is just blobs of heavy armor/strength builds clashing and people instantly dying, along with kiting ranged and cav being solo heroes that can avoid most danger.
rofl
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on December 03, 2012, 06:46:54 pm
rofl

So, its settled strat and siege are more fun and engageing than battle mode.
Title: Re: strategus battles as rounds instead of respawn
Post by: Uumdi on December 03, 2012, 07:45:37 pm
I've thought about similar solutions too.  I think the problems lie in the bugs and the tedious nature of sieges.  I get that castles were defensible locations, but I think the stage should already be set for the battle to take place.


Ladders and siege equipment are just too poorly implemented to be the cornerstone of the entire campaign.  Village fights were always a blast, but aren't as key anymore.  We don't play this game to organize a dozen people who can 'drop good ladders'.  Its not a negligible detail that we should just simply deal with - its a glaringly terrible system.  Siege equipment has been removed from battle, its been removed from siege: all for good reason too.


I appreciate both Torben's suggestion and Smoothrich's response, because they both have merit.  Respawns are goofy.  They're necessary, since to make it realistic, you'd literally need 5000 players all with only 1 life.  We have 50-200, and thousands of tickets to blow through, and respawns are a somewhat decent way to simulate being pushed back into certain areas, and choking off other areas.

I think they should be more like siege server sieges.  I don't think its "dumbing it down" at all.  Though it'd be a much more visceral experience, we give far too much credit to the defective siege system that's in place now.  If gen 10+ players are turned off by it, imagine how alienated new players must feel.