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Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 11:44:41 am

Title: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 11:44:41 am
Now, I do make jokes about race, racism, all the -ism's etc etc often, mostly in good fun. I usually don't care because...well..why the hell would I?

But...this? What the hell IS THIS?
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Seriously? Seriously? At first I thought it was a joke, but no it is real. As the title says, I surely cannot be the only one that finds putting a black man as representative of European history offensive. If we had put a a white person, like Victoria (and she even ruled the majority of Africa at some point) on the cover of a book for the history of Africa, there would be riots.

Am I just a crazy racist? I really cannot tell any more...

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Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: JennaHaze on August 27, 2012, 11:47:23 am
dafuq is this shit
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 11:48:04 am
dafuq is this shit
University history textbook. Used in Canada I think.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Vibe on August 27, 2012, 11:48:51 am
I THOUGHT EUROPE WAS A COUNTRY
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 27, 2012, 11:51:11 am
I THOUGHT EUROPE WAS A COUNTRY
OMG I THOUGHT IT WAS A STATE
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 11:51:57 am
OMG I THOUGHT IT WAS A STATE
A united state?
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 27, 2012, 11:52:45 am
A united state?
Is there other kind of states OMG OMG OMG?!!
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 11:53:47 am
Is there other kind of states OMG OMG OMG?!!
But really, United States of Europe, ie, USE just doesn't sound good!
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Christo on August 27, 2012, 11:54:00 am
I THOUGHT EUROPE WAS A COUNTRY

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Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 27, 2012, 11:55:59 am
But really, United States of Europe, ie, USE just doesn't sound good!

WTF I THOUGHT EUROPE WAS A STATE OF US OF GODDOMOT A :OOO
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Christo on August 27, 2012, 11:58:37 am
But really, United States of Europe, ie, USE just doesn't sound good!

At least this union would be...

*sunglasses*

Very USEFUL.


Oh god that was horrible.

Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 27, 2012, 12:05:00 pm
At least this union would be...

*sunglasses*

Very USEFUL.

(click to show/hide)

Oh god that was horrible.
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Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: [ptx] on August 27, 2012, 12:12:46 pm
That is just so... wrong.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Corwin on August 27, 2012, 12:31:38 pm
At first I thought it was a joke, but no it is real. As the title says, I surely cannot be the only one that finds putting a black man as representative of European history offensive.


Racist. Because of this.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 12:34:47 pm
Have you ever asked yourself why African-European is not a common term?

Have you considered why Europe has the word ROPE embedded in it and why do we refer to Europe as EU only?

Now look at the cover again.

Europe has the word rope "ROPE" in it because it comes from the Greek word Ευρώπη (Europi) meaning good fertility. The continent was named after a Greek myth and Europa is the Latinized version of Europi.

But yeah, history is hard, let's make a bastardized of version of it :/
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 27, 2012, 12:37:54 pm
Now, I do make jokes about race, racism, all the -ism's etc etc often, mostly in good fun. I usually don't care because...well..why the hell would I?

But...this? What the hell IS THIS?

Maybe they are counter trolling you?

I have to admit I laugh at race jokes sometimes. Racism jokes too, but note that they are not RACIST jokes. Couple examples:


Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 12:49:06 pm
Maybe they are counter trolling you?

I have to admit I laugh at race jokes sometimes. Racism jokes too, but note that they are not RACIST jokes. Couple Examples:

I don't quite understand your point :/. Who counter-trolls me? The people who wrote the book?

As for racism vs race jokes...I hardly see the difference. I still believe humor and playing on sensitivities is the best cure over censorship of thought. But that is not really the point, quite honestly.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Leshma on August 27, 2012, 01:27:53 pm
Am I just a crazy racist?

I believe that you are. But I can't help you there because I don't know how it feels like.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Molly on August 27, 2012, 01:33:18 pm
Yeah, googling is fuckin' hard.
He is actually greek. No google involved, I guess. Some may even have something like an education cuz even I knew that w/o google.

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He is pretty good - nice find!
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Molly on August 27, 2012, 06:01:52 pm
First of all, when I said stuff about rope in Europe, I was being 100% serious.
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Second of all, speaking about things you COULD HAVE googled out in 5 seconds does not mean you have education.
Well, reading that nonsense above makes me actually unsure if you really tried to be funny with the "rope"-thing you wrote.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 27, 2012, 06:52:48 pm
Europe was that place during the dark ages, right, with King Arthur and shit?
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 27, 2012, 09:51:40 pm
First of all, when I said stuff about rope in Europe, I was being 100% serious.
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Your joke didn't look like a joke, I am sorry. The Internet doesn't have irony detectors nor we can see your facial expression to see if somebody is joking. Either make it clearer of people will take you seriously.
Second of all, speaking about things you COULD HAVE googled out in 5 seconds does not mean you have education.
And most things can be googled in 5 seconds yet the average American has no fucking idea what Burma is, for example.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Tibe on August 27, 2012, 10:18:50 pm
Europe was that place during the dark ages, right, with King Arthur and shit?

Yeah keep it up buddy. Exactly this kind of trolling and media has already given US reputation that its inhabited only by overweight hamburger eating apes with nukes. And once this turns into a fact for some people and it starts to get annoying  , you try to prove otherwise. Its funny...I admit....but its gonna bite ya in the ass later.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 28, 2012, 05:27:01 am
Yeah keep it up buddy. Exactly this kind of trolling and media has already given US reputation that its inhabited only by overweight hamburger eating apes with nukes. And once this turns into a fact for some people and it starts to get annoying  , you try to prove otherwise. Its funny...I admit....but its gonna bite ya in the ass later.

Having lived in many different countries, I have to say that most of everyone is pathetically ignorant of other countries, even Americans for other American countries, or Europeans for other European countries (Frightening how many Western EUs are a bit clueless and relies on over-simplifications/stereotypes for Eastern EU), and let us not even get started about the glorious EU or American ignorance typical of Asia or the rest of the world.

The USA is still the leading country for technology and innovation with arguably Japan as an exception, and last I checked we still exported more then any other country (Yes, including china, most of USAs products are just for government/corporate usage so the "average Joe" never sees them at his local store) Yes this country is going to hell and is stereotyped to death, but so is the rest of the world.

So basically, I don't give a crap. It is the internet, everyone is an idiot until proven otherwise (which is practically impossible on the internet).
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: isatis on August 28, 2012, 02:41:49 pm
University history textbook. Used in Canada I think.

history text book...

canada?

hum maybe a text about the history of black in europe?
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Tibe on August 28, 2012, 10:04:15 pm
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Good to see you got my point and were so willing to write it all down. :D
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Havoco on August 28, 2012, 10:42:46 pm
Maybe it was black appreciation month when the illustrator put that picture on te cover?
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 28, 2012, 11:05:46 pm
Good to see you got my point and were so willing to write it all down. :D

Swing and a miss.

You are not a lackwit that buys into "popular news and I-read-it-on-the-internet-so-it-has-to-be-true" so I bothered with a response. If you were the aforementioned lackwit who is stupid enough to buy into stereotypes then I would not have bothered with a response.

Your point was
...once this turns into a fact for some people and it starts to get annoying  , you try to prove otherwise....

So no, I understood your point but I disagreed with it and did not "get it." I was arguing with someone who did not buy into it (you), I never have nor ever will argue with someone who does indeed buy into "its inhabited only by overweight hamburger eating apes with nukes" and try to "prove otherwise" about glorious USA, and I defy you to find a single post on these forums where I have done so.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Tibe on August 29, 2012, 06:58:03 am
Say what you like about USA, but id kill if it got me into a good Uni there. :mrgreen:

I once almost turned steretypical myself once when I happened to talk to an american in my country. Who said that my town sucked due to it having only 1 McDonalds at the time. He said it with a straight face and was totally serius about it. But than I happened to come across some awesome americans aswell.

......and I defy you to find a single post on these forums where I have done so......

Posts: 8660    :shock:   Challenge accepted!

Day 1: Food and water in good ammount. Still no sign of the post he dared me to find.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Taser on August 29, 2012, 07:50:35 am
Say what you like about USA, but id kill if it got me into a good Uni there. :mrgreen:

I once almost turned steretypical myself once when I happened to talk to an american in my country. Who said that my town sucked due to it having only 1 McDonalds at the time. He said it with a straight face and was totally serius about it. But than I happened to come across some awesome americans aswell.

Seriously? He didn't crack up a few seconds later because he couldn't keep the poker face up? That takes the cake... which he probably later ate.

Quote
Posts: 8660    :shock:   Challenge accepted!

Day 1: Food and water in good ammount. Still no sign of the post he dared me to find.

Good luck. See you in a month or two. I hope you don't go mad. At least you will see that Tears is the way and the true King of Crpg.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Oberyn on August 30, 2012, 11:21:37 am
It's a bit ridiculous for "western" countries to snipe at each other about how intolerant and non-progressive certain parts of their populations may be when the vast majority of the rest of the world doesn't ascribe to the same multicultural values and couldn't give less of a shit how they are perceived. Japan and China are not only vastly more xenophobic and closed in on themselves than any "western" country, they have no societal taboo about it whatsoever. The shit they say about "black" people and the way they are treated in their popular media would make a backwards KKK hillbilly redneck blush with shame.   

This kind of self-flagellation (as demonstrated by the Carlin skit. I love the guy, he's hilarious, but historically a lot of the shit he says here just doesn't make sense) is almost arrogant in a sense. As if "white" people's prejudices and racism are the only ones that ever existed or had a negative impact on other ethnicities. That kind of ethnic collectivist hatefullness is basically a human trait. Pretending "white" people are a sort of abhorrent anomaly is disingenuous and kind of idealistic. If only eliminating it was as simple as eliminating the idea of one particular constructed ethnicity. Too bad about the hundreds of others. 
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Molly on August 30, 2012, 12:23:19 pm
It's a bit ridiculous for "western" countries to snipe at each other about how intolerant and non-progressive certain parts of their populations may be when the vast majority of the rest of the world doesn't ascribe to the same multicultural values and couldn't give less of a shit how they are perceived. Japan and China are not only vastly more xenophobic and closed in on themselves than any "western" country, they have no societal taboo about it whatsoever. The shit they say about "black" people and the way they are treated in their popular media would make a backwards KKK hillbilly redneck blush with shame.   

This kind of self-flagellation (as demonstrated by the Carlin skit. I love the guy, he's hilarious, but historically a lot of the shit he says here just doesn't make sense) is almost arrogant in a sense. As if "white" people's prejudices and racism are the only ones that ever existed or had a negative impact on other ethnicities. That kind of ethnic collectivist hatefullness is basically a human trait. Pretending "white" people are a sort of abhorrent anomaly is disingenuous and kind of idealistic. If only eliminating it was as simple as eliminating the idea of one particular constructed ethnicity. Too bad about the hundreds of others.
Could you gimme the link to the article you c&p'd this from?  8-)
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Corwin on August 30, 2012, 12:24:15 pm
There is one important difference. Chinese and Japanese never exploited black people, while some white people enslaved them, committed genocides against them, devastate their countries, manipulate them in ways that left scars for generations etc. While on the other hand, Chinese and Japs absolutely have no reason feel black guilt and are more relaxed.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: [ptx] on August 30, 2012, 12:29:33 pm
Most smaller European nations never exploited black people, simply due to not being colonial powers.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Leshma on August 30, 2012, 12:43:16 pm
True.

But in those countries we have gypsies which are exploited in many ways every day :wink:

Still, we're more tolerant than french people:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194704/Saint-Priest-Police-clear-Roma-gypsy-camps-France.html

Vive la Révolution

:lol:
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: [ptx] on August 30, 2012, 12:44:13 pm
Gypsies? Exploited? Don't you mean gypsies exploiting those countries?
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Vibe on August 30, 2012, 12:48:51 pm
Yeah what the shit, the gypsies/romani people we have here are nothing but trouble, stealing shit, not paying taxes, begging for money and being generally disgusting. Last time I walked to the store I saw a romani woman pissing on the walkway right infront of the store, like some fucking dog.

Have some material outside of your house unlocked? GG, gypsies will come and grab even the smallest piece of iron or wood, like it's the fucking post apocalypse and they're trying to build a fortress.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Leshma on August 30, 2012, 12:52:42 pm
Here where I live, gypsies are poor people and they aren't exploiting anyone.

They are regular targets for neo chocolate chip cookie kids, though. State usually does nothing about it.

Dunno how it is in France but I doubt they are exploiting those hard working white french citizens.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Oberyn on August 30, 2012, 12:59:45 pm
There is one important difference. Chinese and Japanese never exploited black people, while some white people enslaved them, committed genocides against them, devastate their countries, manipulate them in ways that left scars for generations etc. While on the other hand, Chinese and Japs absolutely have no reason feel black guilt and are more relaxed.

I never enslaved or killed anyone. Why should I feel guilt? Do all black people collectively feel guilt over the khoisan and pygmy genocides due to Bantu expansion in Africa? Do they all collectively feel guilt over the continued slavery and racism against the few pygmies still left alive in the Congo? After all, it's being perpetrated by "black" people. The idea that because someone is the same skin color as me I am automatically responsible for their actions is...kind of racist? I'm not part of some Borg "white" hive-mind collective, sorry.

Japanese people also tend to whitewash their actions in WW2, focusing mostly on how they were poor victims of the first nuclear weapons. Do you think they feel any less relaxed about the virrulent racism they continue to hold against chinese people to this day, and vice-versa, despite a very recent war that claimed millions of innocent civilians, backed by a sense of racial superiority? Ethnic cleansings and rivalries were the norm throughout most of human history, anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of the history of civilizations and war knows this. And it continues to be the norm for most of the world population.

Multiculturalism, secularism and the ideology behind it is entirely and uniquely "western", linked to enlightenement era values that we used to give lip service to instead of actually following. The idea that we hold ourselves to this higher standard while forgiving other, "less powerful" ethnicties for the same crimes reeks of White Man's Burden. As if "white" people really are so powerful and dominant that a change in their ethnic identities will be enough to eradicate racism and prejudice worldwide.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Oberyn on August 30, 2012, 01:01:34 pm
Gypsies have a hard time fitting in because they mostly still have a nomadic culture. It's not really too difficult to understand why they tend to run afoul of sedentary types, if you aren't a complete retard, like Leshma. And considering most of the romani are "white" themselves, it's most definetely a cultural thing. They look no different than a lot of other medditeranean types.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Tibe on August 30, 2012, 01:08:24 pm
I once met a gypsie who said she could tell me my fortune.

I told her to piss off
She said: Im gonna curse you!
Me: No, im gonna CURSE YOU!
She: Really? With what curse?
Me: Im cursing you into a gypsie for life!
She:.......
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Arathian on August 31, 2012, 09:39:18 am
Gypsies have a hard time fitting in because they mostly still have a nomadic culture. It's not really too difficult to understand why they tend to run afoul of sedentary types, if you aren't a complete retard, like Leshma. And considering most of the romani are "white" themselves, it's most definetely a cultural thing. They look no different than a lot of other medditeranean types.

You probably haven't seen medditeranean people then. Gypsies look nothing like, say, Greeks. They look far more like Pakistanis (mainly because probably they come from, roughly, the area around Pakistan)

also, Leshma: we exploit gypsies? Really? Reeeeally? Last time I checked, they were the ones that outright refused to register to get an ID, to send their kids to school or to settle down.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Overdriven on August 31, 2012, 10:40:50 am
Europe was that place during the dark ages, right, with King Arthur and shit?

That's Britain. Not Europe jeez.

There is one important difference. Chinese and Japanese never exploited black people, while some white people enslaved them, committed genocides against them, devastate their countries, manipulate them in ways that left scars for generations etc. While on the other hand, Chinese and Japs absolutely have no reason feel black guilt and are more relaxed.

They just exploited everyone else instead. No it's got nothing to do with that. Hell African nations enslaved each other for ages. The Ottoman Empire enslaved 1000's upon 1000's or European's. Much of the European coastline still has watchtowers which were there to watch for Ottoman slave galleys who regularly raided coastal towns and villages. I think it is just the attitude. I know plenty of Indian people who will openly, and loudly, insult most other races in a way that would be deemed incredibly racist. They just don't give a shit. And most other cultures do it to. The West just has a ridiculous guilt complex.

I never enslaved or killed anyone. Why should I feel guilt? Do all black people collectively feel guilt over the khoisan and pygmy genocides due to Bantu expansion in Africa? Do they all collectively feel guilt over the continued slavery and racism against the few pygmies still left alive in the Congo? After all, it's being perpetrated by "black" people. The idea that because someone is the same skin color as me I am automatically responsible for their actions is...kind of racist? I'm not part of some Borg "white" hive-mind collective, sorry.

Japanese people also tend to whitewash their actions in WW2, focusing mostly on how they were poor victims of the first nuclear weapons. Do you think they feel any less relaxed about the virrulent racism they continue to hold against chinese people to this day, and vice-versa, despite a very recent war that claimed millions of innocent civilians, backed by a sense of racial superiority? Ethnic cleansings and rivalries were the norm throughout most of human history, anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of the history of civilizations and war knows this. And it continues to be the norm for most of the world population.

Yeah just look at Hellfire Pass and the railway through there. Built on the backs of the enslaved and prisoners of war where 1000's died. The Japanese are no better than anyone else. I certainly don't feel guilt over slavery. It had nothing to do with me. There was an interesting article where the great great grandson of some big slave trader went to Africa to apologise for his families actions. I remember thinking what the fuck? No one alive now was even involved in any of what his family did. Apologising to the ancestors means shit when you're an ancestor yourself.

Regardless that's not to say that racism is right. I just don't see why we should fear it quite so much and it should be quite as big a taboo as it is. Sure if someone is yelling someone down in the street with racist insults then that's wrong. Even acting outright differently towards others of a different race can be wrong as in reality we are all one and the same. But there shouldn't be any pussyfooting around incase we accidentally insult each other. Or fear making a joke out of it. I will happily imitate my girlfriends indian accent and clean her skin with a vacuum cleaner as a joke and she'll always laugh at me when I get sunburnt and call me pastey white boy.

There's a new show on the BBC called 'Citizen Khan' which is a comedy about a Pakistani family. It received something like 600 complaints (fairly high despite several million viewers) for being racist. Funnily enough the majority of people who complained where white. And many Pakistani's think it's hilarious because there is a lot of truth behind it. Just shows how much our view has been fucked by a fear of being racist and a need to always be politically correct.
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: JackieChan on September 01, 2012, 04:21:13 am
Regarding the OP:

I think they illustrated the front page of that book in that way to show how other cultures and "races" influenced Europe and its developement (thus the title "making Europe") especially just before and after the industrial revolution (look at the dress of the man in the picture, its from the 1700-1800) as that was the highlight of  colonialism and imperialism (European countries expanding on underdevelopped countries and taking their wealth for their own profit).

Anyway thats my opinion, i might be totally wrong :P
Title: Re: Surely I am not the only one
Post by: Kirbyy on September 05, 2012, 10:37:28 pm
That is just so... wrong.

xD I just see this in your signature, right after reading your post.

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