cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Vibe on August 20, 2012, 08:38:06 am

Title: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 20, 2012, 08:38:06 am
Been playing Long Hafted Blade cavalry a lot lately and I must say this class is pretty fucked right now. I'm not saying it isn't effective at all, but there are a few reasons why we don't see this class on the battlefield anymore.

First off, the speed of the swing is sloooowwwwww. If you don't time that swing perfectly, you're going to miss that perfect spot. If you don't hit with the perfect spot, you're going to glance.

And even then you're going to glance if you don't have a massive speed bonus, which brings me to second point: my (non-loomed) LHB glances on anything that isn't naked if the speed bonus isn't very good. If you try to damage someone while slowly riding by them you're not going to do shit, it will just glance.

Third, the cav pole swing animation is just bad. You're going to get outreached even by 1h (unless you hit with that tiny perfect spot and even then I'm not sure if it's going to outreach). On top of that, the collision of the pole seems to end 60-70% through the swing. This means that even if the swing hasn't completely ended yet, it's going to just go through whatever you were swinging at - I tested this versus trees, if I hit early in the animation it's going to collide, if I hit after 50% of the swing is through there's a good chance it'll just go through the tree. So basically only the first 60% of the swing is useful. Right swing seems to be better than left here and seems to have longer collision. Left is downright abysmal, bad reach and 50% through the swing it doesn't even collide anymore.

Combine all that with the maneuver nerf the cavalry got and you got yourself a very borked class. You're going to suffer against any form of cavalry: lancers, 1h cav, hell even 2h cav. You're going to suffer versus infantry as well, even shielders.

Which brings me to a question, why was this even nerfed so hard? I don't recall swingable pole cav ever being OP or anything. Or was this class just simply forgotten and destroyed by nerfs done to other parts of the game that are connected to the class (like cav turning speed nerf, cut vs armor nerf, ...)?


Anyway, my suggestion is to make it more like Native: faster swing speed with native animations. Don't think there needs to be a damage buff, although I would sure like one.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: [ptx] on August 20, 2012, 08:43:53 am
Right swing WILL outreach anything below 120 or so reach.. The rest is true, though.

Also, the damage output is plain crap, a full speed ride-by on a courser, hitting the perfect spot with 8PS and full pole prof will most likely not kill even a medium armored guy.

Also, renown whore.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 20, 2012, 08:47:47 am
This is an honest call to devs to look this up, not a renown farm.

(click to show/hide)


Quote from: [ptx] on August 20, 2012, 08:43:53 am
Right swing WILL outreach anything below 120 or so reach.. The rest is true, though.

I could swear that I was outreached by a 1h when right swinging. Could be because of the missing collision though, perhaps it was close to the end of the swing.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 20, 2012, 12:46:28 pm
Bring back swingable iron staff from horseback!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Largg on August 20, 2012, 07:02:50 pm
LHB on horseback belongs to same club as secondary modes and half swording.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 20, 2012, 07:04:25 pm
Well I respecced my main to LHB cav and I feel very special :3
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Opium.dk on August 20, 2012, 07:56:41 pm
Polearm whine, can we get some 2handers whining about ranged too for maximum lols?
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Havoco on August 20, 2012, 08:02:11 pm
LHB cav? Haven't seen one of those for a long time.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 20, 2012, 08:08:46 pm
Quote from: Opium.dk on August 20, 2012, 07:56:41 pm
Polearm whine, can we get some 2handers whining about ranged too for maximum lols?

did you even read the thread, I'm guessing you haven't
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Achelous on August 21, 2012, 07:40:26 pm
You obviously havent seen LUBU tear Na apart with the LHB on horseback
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 21, 2012, 07:54:41 pm
Quote from: Achelous on August 21, 2012, 07:40:26 pm
You obviously havent seen LUBU tear Na apart with the LHB on horseback
I've also seen Chinaserf make entire teams a laughing stock with a mere stick. As a whole, the LHB is still woefully underpowered on a horse even if a really good player can make it work on horseback.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 21, 2012, 08:54:45 pm
Quote from: Achelous on August 21, 2012, 07:40:26 pm
You obviously havent seen LUBU tear Na apart with the LHB on horseback

>> NA
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Zandieer on August 21, 2012, 08:58:55 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on August 20, 2012, 12:46:28 pm
Bring back swingable iron staff from horseback!
(click to show/hide)

Oh, baby!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 22, 2012, 12:08:26 am
Quote from: Vibe on August 20, 2012, 07:04:25 pm
Well I respecced my main to LHB cav and I feel very special :3

You saw me in that one small strategus battle? We didn't have lances, so I took mw LHB and kicked ass with rouncy. Well mostly it was because the enemies were dumb, unaware kill hungry 2h heroes but still great fun. Tried the same set up in EU 1... Not so fun anymore.. Mostly because people have real armor in EU 1 :D.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 22, 2012, 07:27:37 am
Quote from: Son Of Odin on August 22, 2012, 12:08:26 am
You saw me in that one small strategus battle? We didn't have lances, so I took mw LHB and kicked ass with rouncy. Well mostly it was because the enemies were dumb, unaware kill hungry 2h heroes but still great fun. Tried the same set up in EU 1... Not so fun anymore.. Mostly because people have real armor in EU 1 :D.

Hm yeah. Well it is certain that you can still get kills if the enemy is unaware, if they're aware you're going to have a hard time getting them. Still, a very enjoyable class :D
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on August 22, 2012, 08:26:35 pm
Actually hafted blade on horseback is just as shit in native. It was overlooked and never buffer. All it needs is a reduction in swing speed penalty. Dont increase the range or everyone will use it and all cav would be lance and hafted blade since they are the same wpf.

Oops said too much ;)
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Elmuri on August 22, 2012, 09:21:01 pm
Quote from: Zandieer on August 21, 2012, 08:58:55 pm
Btw your current Snufkin is ugly, change back to old one!
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Ragnar on August 22, 2012, 09:30:40 pm
stick 3lbs on the end of a broom stick and swing it around while riding an actual horse, how easy is it lol
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 09:38:12 pm
Quote from: Ragnar on August 22, 2012, 09:30:40 pm
stick 3lbs on the end of a broom stick and swing it around while riding an actual horse, how easy is it lol
http://forum.meleegaming.com/realism-discussion/
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 09:38:51 pm
Quote from: elmuri on August 22, 2012, 09:21:01 pm
Btw your current Snufkin is ugly, change back to old one!
All of them sucks! Go without an avatar or I'll kick you out of USoA!
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 22, 2012, 10:49:55 pm
Quote from: Spa_geh_tea on August 22, 2012, 08:26:35 pm
Actually hafted blade on horseback is just as shit in native. It was overlooked and never buffer. All it needs is a reduction in swing speed penalty. Dont increase the range or everyone will use it and all cav would be lance and hafted blade since they are the same wpf.

Oops said too much ;)

It's not mega effective in Native, but still much better than in cRPG.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 23, 2012, 01:06:08 am
It would be nice to see more swingable polearms on horseback too. Maybe the iron staff (and other staves) could make a return if the grip position gets changed and the reach wouldn't be too massive like it was before? I'm talking about 1h grip ofc. Long spiked club for the lulz maybe? It would look awesome :D
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Teeth on August 23, 2012, 12:14:31 pm
I love the animations that hafted blade cavalry has. I remember this guy with a long hafted blade on horse rode up to me, brought his horse to a standstill and just hit me on the top of the head with that awesome kung fu swing. That was epic.

Swingable polearms deserve a place in this mod. Buff!

Which polearms are swingable btw?

Edit: Oh crap, they don't have that weird kung fu spinny animation anymore. Aww, the reach on this seems quite considerable.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 23, 2012, 12:54:23 pm
Hafted blade and long hafted blade are the only ones to my understanding... I would love to see the staff cavalry return :).
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Teeth on August 23, 2012, 01:35:15 pm
After giving this a spin on EU_3 I can agree with Vibe that its completely borked. The hit detection is awful. You can't count on the reach, I missed 4 times trying to kill a stationary horse while my swing went right through it.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 23, 2012, 01:57:13 pm
Yeah that would be the most annoying thing about it right now. The animation is really weird. I noticed that if you aim down your weapon goes through even more stuff.. I should make a video showcasing all these wonky animations and weapon passing through solid objects, but I kind of cba right now D:

Either way it's like you said, you can't really count on your weapon model to display whether you're gonna hit something or not.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Jarlek on August 24, 2012, 04:32:12 pm
Jarlek can have his baby back?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on August 27, 2012, 06:46:18 pm
I believe there actually is a damage penalty for using anything other than lances or 1h weapons on horseback. 1h/2h type weapons (morningstar/longsword) get 25% reduction and anything else including LHB gets a 50% reduction which hurts it quite a bit. Even with teh damage penalty teh morning-star still hits alot harder than any other weapon from horseback (It ties steel pick though), but the LHB cant really take a 50% reduction and still be good with cut damage. Using a slow weapon from horseback is hard i know, but its something you get used to and once you get it down its not so hard, but LHB is pretty slow. This is all assumeing the crpg damage calculator is correct, dont know if it is.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 27, 2012, 07:54:16 pm
Every melee weapon swings slower on horseback (25 or 33% sounds about right, can't remember exactly what it is).  Plus swinging a bastard weapon as 1h vs 2h also receives a speed/damage reduction.  I think those numbers just stack.

But it does seem like the LHB swings just as slow as my MW Heavy lance from horseback, so something else must be at play there.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Smoothrich on August 27, 2012, 09:05:21 pm
didn't read thread, any cav buff is automatic -1 and should be moved to spam/deleted with the OP muted for trolling

and the long hafted blade on horseback is easy mode, just like everything else on horseback.  don't balance based on the bottom level of skill (the OP) you balance for the best.  and any good player will dominate with a LHB on horseback because he's ON HORSEBACK.  not to mention swinging a weapon longer then any 1 or 2 hander doing tons of cut damage with animations most players will be clueless about

Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 27, 2012, 09:30:18 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on August 27, 2012, 09:05:21 pm
didn't read thread, any cav buff is automatic -1 and should be moved to spam/deleted with the OP muted for trolling

and the long hafted blade on horseback is easy mode, just like everything else on horseback.  don't balance based on the bottom level of skill (the OP) you balance for the best.  and any good player will dominate with a LHB on horseback because he's ON HORSEBACK.  not to mention swinging a weapon longer then any 1 or 2 hander doing tons of cut damage with animations most players will be clueless about

NA scrub opinion unwanted, out with you
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Smoothrich on August 27, 2012, 09:58:53 pm
Quote from: Vibe on August 27, 2012, 09:30:18 pm
NA scrub opinion unwanted, out with you

I'm an EU cav tournament champion, and as an undefeated competitive player in EU, I am much, much more qualified to discuss cav balance than you are.  You're just bad and asking for buffs to make up for your lack of skill.  Many examples of top tier players performing well with this playstyle have been posted by others in this thread too.  Sorry man, but you should just respec to archery or throwing instead.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: oprah_winfrey on August 27, 2012, 10:18:39 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on August 27, 2012, 09:58:53 pm
I'm an EU cav tournament champion, and as an undefeated competitive player in EU, I am much, much more qualified to discuss cav balance than you are.

Saw this coming from a mile away...
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Smoothrich on August 27, 2012, 10:30:11 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on August 27, 2012, 10:18:39 pm
Saw this coming from a mile away...

It pains me to play that tired card except in moments of national need, but I will not have my character, knowledge, experience, or country insulted in this manner by this player.

And seriously.  Asking for cav buffs is awful and anyone who +1'd should be ashamed.  Don't buff the long hafted blade (its extremely usable and it outreaches every other swinging weapon, the OP doesn't know what he's talking about) just nerf the fuck out of lances.  Balanced Game.

Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Vibe on August 27, 2012, 10:47:50 pm
if only people took you seriously Smooth, alas... but hey, you're the EU cav champion, that must mean someth- oh no wait, still zero fucks given.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: Life on August 27, 2012, 11:32:55 pm
C-rpg will not be nerfing or buffing because you refuse to use teamwork or tactics.  Have a good day sir
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: owens on August 28, 2012, 02:25:24 am
Just dont use it. It might sound like I'm avoiding the problem but it really isn't a problem.
Title: Re: Swingable polearm cavalry is bØrked
Post by: isatis on August 28, 2012, 04:50:24 am
I do not agree with you smooth, I mean yes the lance cav is easy and should by no mean be buffed BUT I think we should try to diversify the cav playstyle so it won't be just boring back sneaky lance cav

and we are more speaking of a ''buggy'' thing then a balance I think.

i used to play LHB on horse back in the kung fu model day, but after they changed it it feel laggy and the only way I was getting kill is by taking people by surprise... like people downblocking mindlessly in my face (sigh) and even it took a bit of chances to get them...

so no buff just debug this OR bring back old model please