cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: MrShine on August 06, 2012, 08:08:26 pm

Title: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: MrShine on August 06, 2012, 08:08:26 pm
For Reference:
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I think most people agree the new point system is good.  I also think most people agree the point system needs some work.  I'm hoping some changes could be made in order to reward hunting priority targets, and to reduce the points gained from peasant slaughtering (which needs no further incentive).  I'm also hoping that the system can reward hits that appear to be a part of good teamwork.

Here's my suggestion for how points should work:

Standard Points!
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Point Multipliers!
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Siege Specific!
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So let's look at a few examples and how the points would play out.

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So that's it. I'm interested in feedback & suggestions.  I think a lot of the current system would mesh pretty well, but I would scrap most of the radius point gaining in favor of more assist-oriented points (especially when it comes to battle).
Anyone have problems with my numbers or think it doesn't represent things accurately?
 

I made a few tweaks thanks to Elindor & Diggles (and others!)
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Elindor on August 06, 2012, 08:50:50 pm
Shine i'd be interested to see what you thought about points for objective gameplay in siege and/or strat.

+ points for defending or capping flag
+ points for opening gate on offense
+ points for closing gate on defense
- points for opening gate on DEFENSE (LOTS of negative points, lol)
- for closing gate on offense
+ points for pushing siege towers?

Stuff like that.
Maybe something to do with ladders too.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Riddaren on August 06, 2012, 10:42:00 pm
Quote from: MrShine on August 06, 2012, 08:08:26 pm
50% point reduction when dealt to someone under level 25 (peasant hunting)
25% point boost  when dealt to someone above level 31

No reason to set it at 50% below a certain level or at 25% above another.
You already have the exact level of the one getting hit (and also the one who hits so you could actually make it relative as well).
Just bring those levels straight into the formula. The calculation will probably even be be faster that way (without IF statements).
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Digglez on August 06, 2012, 11:20:41 pm
Dont need to change formula for teamhits, as dmg is already reduced by 50%

Also, lose the 75% reduction for horse killing.  Horses are a huge threat and should be rewarded by killing them or taking the time to damage them.
A spearman killing 2-3 horses is far more valuable than some 2h hero killing a few peasants or average players.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 06, 2012, 11:26:48 pm
For comparison's sake for any who missed it:
Quote from: chadz on August 06, 2012, 08:08:47 pm
Current system:

- take the damage dealt
- cap it by what HP the enemy has left
- divide by 10, round down
- if it is a horse and has a rider divide by 5,
- if it is a horse without rider set to 0
- if it's a teammate multiply by -2
- if you hurt yourself * -1
- give this score to the one who did the damage
- divide score by 2
- give to everyone within 3m that is an enemy of the one who was hit
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: seddrik on August 07, 2012, 04:44:14 am
Quote
cap it by what HP the enemy has left

Yeah Ive notice this.  I can kill 6 people and have barely 10 points.  Hit one friendly who jumps in the way and suddenly have -20 points or hit one guy who lives and have 25 points.  And killing peasants... thats ur big "cash" points.  Top the board by avoiding armored guys and jacking the peasants.  But, over all, capping the final blow actually penalizes those who kill enemies. 

Also, the names now bleed over all this... info/score info and make it look a mess.

Prefer the list to be based on kills anywa, even if the new data is kept.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: MrShine on August 07, 2012, 04:38:35 pm
Quote from: Elindor on August 06, 2012, 08:50:50 pm
Shine i'd be interested to see what you thought about points for objective gameplay in siege and/or strat.

+ points for defending or capping flag
+ points for opening gate on offense
+ points for closing gate on defense
- points for opening gate on DEFENSE (LOTS of negative points, lol)
- for closing gate on offense
+ points for pushing siege towers?

Stuff like that.
Maybe something to do with ladders too.
I have a harder time thinking about how points would work for siege, because (in my mind) the goal of rewarding points is to reward behavior that helps your team win.  In battle that's easy -> kills and damage = better chance for your team to win.  However in siege.. I dunno.  If there is 1 minute left on a map it ISN'T helping your team to win by pushing a siege tower, or even in some cases spending the time to try to open a gate.  However I do think that that is the general idea that it should focus on, so maybe it would be worth implementing and see how it shakes out.

I'd propose:
Siege Attacker!

Open a gate: +1 point
Close a gate: -1 point
Damage a door: +1 point for x damage (x being whatever ~half a doors hp is)
Raise a ladder: +1 point
Lower a ladder: -1 point
Push a siege tower: +1 point every 30 seconds
Kill an enemy within flag radius: +1 point
Assault flag: +1 point every 5 seconds flag is lowered

Siege Defender!

Open a gate: -1 point
Close a gate: +1 point (that way if someone is legitimately opening a gate to let cav out, they can get the point back by closing it again)
Raise a ladder: -1 point
Lower a ladder: +1 point
Kill an enemy within flag radius (but double the radius so defenders fighting around the flag are rewarded): +1 point
Kill an enemy within radius of a ladder, gate control, or siege tower: +1 point

In the areas where you can get points for killing, I think the same rules I have above with points for damage (and team wounding) should apply. 

I'll add this to my OP

Quote from: Digglez on August 06, 2012, 11:20:41 pm
Dont need to change formula for teamhits, as dmg is already reduced by 50%

Also, lose the 75% reduction for horse killing.  Horses are a huge threat and should be rewarded by killing them or taking the time to damage them.
A spearman killing 2-3 horses is far more valuable than some 2h hero killing a few peasants or average players.
I agree that the teamhit formula should be changed as you mentioned, I'll update the OP.

I don't agree with your suggestion about changing horse point reduction.  If no reduction is given people could earn anywhere from 8.5 - 15 points per horse kill, which is far too much IMO considering speed bonus and leg hits which can take many horses out in a couple swings. 75% might be a tad high, but 50% feels too low for me.


Quote from: Riddaren on August 06, 2012, 10:42:00 pm
No reason to set it at 50% below a certain level or at 25% above another.
You already have the exact level of the one getting hit (and also the one who hits so you could actually make it relative as well).
Just bring those levels straight into the formula. The calculation will probably even be be faster that way (without IF statements).

I'm bad at maths, but I do like the idea of getting points based on relative level compared to your foe.  The problem I have with this is it would ultimately punish the higher leveled players, since they would generally be fighting people lower than them.  Maybe if the threshold would be you earn normal points with people +- 5 levels from you, that would mean level 30's get full points against level 25-35, while a level 35 would mostly just get full points from other 30s. 

Quote from: Tears of Destiny on August 06, 2012, 11:26:48 pm
For comparison's sake for any who missed it:

Yeah, I feel like I'm pretty much in line with what chadz has implemented regarding damage dealt & horse damage. I don't think that team damage deserves to be multiplied, and I personally want to get away from the radius thing in battle since it rewards people for being near good players but not actually contributing (something I think my 'assist' suggestion does better at).  In fact I would say that being near teammates (specifically right behind them) generally hurts more than it helps. 

I'll add chadz's current system to the OP for a truly monstrous behemoth that no-one will read.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Bulzur on August 07, 2012, 09:45:37 pm
The "give half of the point to every ennemy of the wounded in a 3m range" doesn't seem like a great idea :

-it favours leeching. People sticking close to good teammates, sometimes getting inbetween the swings (overhead bouncing off the teammate's shield, sideswings hitting the teammate instead of the ennemy, etc...)
-it favours clusterfucks and mindless charge ("damn, all the team seems to go in the open plains, even if we have a beautiful hill, range superiority, while they have cav superiority and we lack pikeman... Bah, let's stick to them, for the score." thinks 75% of the team, following 25% of mindless chargers)
-it's okay for cav, since the bump resulting in a death can happen before the cav hits the 3m mark (then again, with a courser, that's not so sure)
-it's terrible for range who can only count on themselves and the damage they deal to score points.



I know you wanted to reward the people who :
-blocked the ennemy, allowing a teammate to backstab him
-give a fearfull aura, causing panic (noooo, not Teeth, go away !)
-force you to block (pikeman, longspear, attack holders)

But what happens to the range that :
-shoot the ennemy just before he finishes his swing, wich would have killed you, saving your life
-shoot the ennemy just before he'd have blocked your swing, enabling you a free hit (sometimes kill)
-finish off that horse, making the coucher fall in a groupe of allies, before killing any of them, your teammates killing him easily, and ALL gaining points for "just being there", while the range contemplates his 2-4 points for finishing the horse.

What happens to the ninja :
-who takes a while to go all around all alone, to kill thoses 2 far away excellent range that were shooting hell on your troops.

What happens to the cav :
-who decide to risk his life and go after other cavs, on the other side of the battlefield. Sometimes killing two ennemies just before being dehorsed and abandonned.


Apart from thoses points, the system seems okay.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: zagibu on August 07, 2012, 09:48:27 pm
Most urgent need is style points. Wearing a Kuyak = -10 points per second.

Also, teamhit has to be changed so that teamhitting Grey clan members always increases your points.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: MrShine on August 07, 2012, 11:13:58 pm
Quote from: Bulzur on August 07, 2012, 09:45:37 pm
The "give half of the point to every ennemy of the wounded in a 3m range" doesn't seem like a great idea :

-it favours leeching. People sticking close to good teammates, sometimes getting inbetween the swings (overhead bouncing off the teammate's shield, sideswings hitting the teammate instead of the ennemy, etc...)
-it favours clusterfucks and mindless charge ("damn, all the team seems to go in the open plains, even if we have a beautiful hill, range superiority, while they have cav superiority and we lack pikeman... Bah, let's stick to them, for the score." thinks 75% of the team, following 25% of mindless chargers)
-it's okay for cav, since the bump resulting in a death can happen before the cav hits the 3m mark (then again, with a courser, that's not so sure)
-it's terrible for range who can only count on themselves and the damage they deal to score points.



I know you wanted to reward the people who :
-blocked the ennemy, allowing a teammate to backstab him
-give a fearfull aura, causing panic (noooo, not Teeth, go away !)
-force you to block (pikeman, longspear, attack holders)

But what happens to the range that :
-shoot the ennemy just before he finishes his swing, wich would have killed you, saving your life
-shoot the ennemy just before he'd have blocked your swing, enabling you a free hit (sometimes kill)
-finish off that horse, making the coucher fall in a groupe of allies, before killing any of them, your teammates killing him easily, and ALL gaining points for "just being there", while the range contemplates his 2-4 points for finishing the horse.

What happens to the ninja :
-who takes a while to go all around all alone, to kill thoses 2 far away excellent range that were shooting hell on your troops.

What happens to the cav :
-who decide to risk his life and go after other cavs, on the other side of the battlefield. Sometimes killing two ennemies just before being dehorsed and abandonned.


Apart from thoses points, the system seems okay.

If you read my OP you'll see I'm opposed to the 'radius' stuff that is in the current system, and I favor more of an 'assist' based system.  I think you should get points if you damage someone who ends up dying shortly after, even if you aren't the one who gets the kill.  In addition to getting points for damage dealt, I think this would be much better than being near someone who got a kill or did damage, I agree.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Bulzur on August 07, 2012, 11:30:44 pm
Oh, i thought you were suggesting "add-ons" to the way score is now.
My bad. Gave you your +1. ^^
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: seddrik on August 08, 2012, 03:08:19 am
Quote
Siege Attacker!
Open a gate: +1 point
Close a gate: -1 point
Raise a ladder: +1 point
Lower a ladder: -1 point

This is..... not a very intuitive system tho.  Sometimes the best thing to do as an attacker is to SHUT that door and lock those 5 enemy OUTSIDE...

Quote
Siege Defender!
Open a gate: -1 point
Close a gate: +1 point (that way if someone is legitimately opening a gate to let cav out, they can get the point back by closing it again)
Raise a ladder: -1 point
Lower a ladder: +1 point

Again... so basically u get no points if u open and close.  Whats the point of the system then?  And, the first guy going out is gonna get penalized for opening the door UNLESS he then just acts like a door man to wait till everyone is out and closes it.

In short.  This is micro managing points.  I don't think it will work as effectively in practice as on paper.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: MrShine on August 09, 2012, 03:28:53 pm
Quote from: seddrik on August 08, 2012, 03:08:19 am
This is..... not a very intuitive system tho.  Sometimes the best thing to do as an attacker is to SHUT that door and lock those 5 enemy OUTSIDE...
Sometimes... like once in a blue moon.  Also I can hardly see a time where closing the gate as attacker would allow the rest of your team to get to the flag faster than allowing them to run into these 5 imaginary guys.  I think you're trying to find a one-in-a-million situation where an attacker would want to close the gate.
Quote
Again... so basically u get no points if u open and close.  Whats the point of the system then?  And, the first guy going out is gonna get penalized for opening the door UNLESS he then just acts like a door man to wait till everyone is out and closes it.

In short.  This is micro managing points.  I don't think it will work as effectively in practice as on paper.
I think you're imagining the gate scenarios differently from how they'd actually happen.  You don't often open/close a gate right next to the door, you generally have to go to a second level or at least get slightly away from the gate to open/close it.  So anyone who opens a gate, and then runs down to run through the gate and expects someone to close it behind them is probably an idiot, since that leaves the gate open for attackers far longer.

The best way to let people out as defense would be to have someone open the gate for you and then close it right after.  With the system I have, that would equal 0 points gained/lost for the gate opener/closer.  Anyone who leaves it open or closed on the other hand would lose points as they should.

The point of the system is to reward attackers who open the gate, and defenders who close the gate.  Attackers for putting up ladders, defenders for knocking them down... etc.  For the rare instances defense needs to open a gate, there's an option for them to gain the point back by closing again.  For the extremely rare instances where attackers close a gate... well they're fucked too bad.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Moncho on August 09, 2012, 04:38:55 pm
Quite good ideas. About the score a kill, do you mean you get 2 points apart from the ones corresponding to the damage dealt? Otherwise str builds who can 1hit people with 40-50 dmg would actually get less points.
But the extra 2 points from dealing the killing blow would make sense.
Also in the current system, teamhits are penalised double, which makes up for the 50% friendly fire on the servers (if this hasnt been changed), and I think should be considered in this one too.
Also a formula that took account of your level and enemy level to count points could be used, maybe something like:

finalpts = (enemy lvl+30)/60 *30/yourlvl    *dmg/10

The first part  (before the first *) makes that lvl 1 gives you barely over half points, lvl 30 gives you *1, and over slightly more
The second part gives you a nice extra bonus when low level and a slight nerf when over 30 (11% at lvl 34, 9% at 33, 6% at 32, 3% at 31).
This are just rough numbers i came up with, but with some adjustment a formula of this type could work.

The rest would be quite nice additions
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Kafein on August 09, 2012, 06:27:18 pm
Tbh, killing/hitting a stray horse should either be completely neutral in points or grant a small amount of negative points.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Elindor on August 10, 2012, 07:45:37 pm
Siege specific points might be best to ignore gates...since that is a complicated subject.
But the rest of it makes sense.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 10, 2012, 07:55:01 pm
MrShine, at times closing gates/doors is for the better for the attackers. (just sayin')
IMO for battle a simple damage dealt - damage received (with teamhitting counting as -4 times the damage 'cuss teamhitting is bad.
Also -1000 points if you kill a horse an ally is whistling at, so many times have I saved a guys ass by onehitting a guy who would've lanced him, and the thanks I get is the ally killing the horse so I can't remount.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Dasty on August 10, 2012, 10:53:36 pm
I like quite a few of these ideas, but I have some issues with a few of them.

The biggest issues are that some of these will just never happen with how the coding works. The one where you get points for damaging a person and then get points if they die within a second requires there to be a timer set for every hit unless that hit is a kill. This means that you could potentially need to check 30-40 variables each time another person is killed. You must check if that person was hit recently then you also must check if the last time they were hit was within a second, then you need to have a variable for who hit last and award them a point. But if you want it to be accurate you need to save the names of everyone who hit this person and when they hit this person to determine who gets a point. This is simply not a good use of system resources.

The next one that isn't great for system resources, but not as bad as the first, is the top 10% system. I like the idea, but you need to have two arrays that are either dynamically ordered by points or are saved to a new array by point score using a sorting algorithm. Sorting algorithms use quite a bit of resources as they must go through the entire array many times to be accurate. Then you would need to match the indexes of the point array with the indexes of the character array so that the first length*.1 indexes are actually tied with the correct people. Again, good idea but not the best system to use.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Ikaguia on August 11, 2012, 07:45:35 am
actually it's not that hard I could think of many ways to do it myself
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Dasty on August 11, 2012, 08:30:26 am
Have you ever worked with the module system? Normal coding, it's easy to do, module system is a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on August 11, 2012, 08:56:46 am
My only question with the "How is enemy of the hit player" business is if we all run in and TK each other does that have an AOE...
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on August 14, 2012, 06:08:09 pm
This all sounds really cool.

But, unless the devs are planning to use points to dictate your gold/exp multiplier. I really hope that they would not waste the time on it, since it holds no value beyond e-peen and round balance.

If they are planning to use it to determine multipliers, then hell yeah!
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: MrShine on August 14, 2012, 06:55:39 pm
I think the biggest thing is can it be done... it sounds like the coding to have some sort of time-based point system for kill-assists wouldn't be very possible.  If not, then I guess proximity is ok as a fallback, but I'm wary of making it linked with gold/xp in its current stage.  I've noticed on my archer alt that I get far fewer points on average per round, primarily because I'm always at distance with enemies.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Elindor on August 14, 2012, 07:30:20 pm
Quote from: Spa_geh_tea on August 14, 2012, 06:08:09 pm
This all sounds really cool.

But, unless the devs are planning to use points to dictate your gold/exp multiplier. I really hope that they would not waste the time on it, since it holds no value beyond e-peen and round balance.

If they are planning to use it to determine multipliers, then hell yeah!

They are.  That's why this is being put in.
The new multiplier system will be a combo of winning rounds mixed with your personal performance, etc.

As far as I understand it from the post chadz made.
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: Ikaguia on August 19, 2012, 08:51:14 pm
Quote from: Dasty on August 11, 2012, 08:30:26 am
Have you ever worked with the module system? Normal coding, it's easy to do, module system is a whole different ball game.
yes I have, and probably for much more time than you  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Let's Expand on the New Point System!
Post by: OssumPawesome on August 28, 2012, 02:33:34 am
+1