cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 04:01:55 pm

Title: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 04:01:55 pm

So anyone who plays siege has been on defense and cursed the spawnpoints (me included) especially when they spawn away from the flag when its contested.

When I started making maps, I found out why this happens, so I thought I'd share...

---------------------------------------------------
HOW SPAWNS WORK IN SIEGE MODE
---------------------------------------------------

When a mapper makes a map they place defense spawn points (entry points 0-31) throughout the castle where they want defenders to spawn.
However, which spawn is chosen by the system is not random nor proximity to flag, its based around a couple parameters:

Here are the parameters:
- Proximity to Entry Point 0 (what I call Defense Center)
- Proximity from attackers (it wants to spawn you AWAY from enemies)
- Proximity to other defenders (it wants to spawn you CLOSE to other allies)
(listed order is the weight order of the parameters)

Here's what this means.
When attackers get in and get close to the flag, the system is going to try to spawn you (defender) AWAY from those attackers, so EVEN if Entry Point 0 is near the flag, it will likely NOT spawn you near there.

Map makers COULD put ALL the defense spawn points near the flag, thus NOT ALLOWING the system to spawn defenders anywhere else - but have fun with that map, lol.

----

The system uses some thresholds to determine how to follow the parameters and therefore, where to spawn defenders at any given time But these thresholds are not easy to understand or implement exactly - so it becomes a "guess and check" basically for map makers. 

So most map makers do the following:
- Place defense spawns how you think it will be best, put it up on server to "test" (we don't have any other way really to test with many players)
- Watch the results and/or gather feedback (community is so helpful and constructive with this, of course :) )
- Make small changes (as to not knee jerk react)
- Re-upload
- Watch again...

---------------------

Hope that helps explain why defense spawn points work the way they do.  It was something I was shocked to find out myself.
They are basically a shifting field of spawn possibilities depending on distance from Defense Center and enemy players/allied players.

It is not a bad system necessarily, but unfortunately hard to control.

(NOTE - offense isnt really effected by this, since offense spawns are all clustered around Entry Point 32 (offense center) and defenders are not usually close anyhow.  Even if defense got close, there is no where else to spawn so they would spawn there anyhow)

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on July 18, 2012, 04:05:36 pm

Interesting indeed...

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Rhekimos on July 18, 2012, 04:19:09 pm

Thanks for sharing this insight.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Peasant_Woman on July 18, 2012, 04:38:42 pm

Good post Elindor, more players need to be aware that siege is the hardest mode to balance for, especially concerning spawns.
If you find a siege map that you don't think is playing in a fun way then don't hesitate to give constructive feedback in the appropriate threads! We read it! All of it! Even if most of it is along the lines of 'Shit map take it down.'  :lol:

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Lech on July 18, 2012, 04:55:45 pm

what if you choose spawn yourself? AT least it should work this way.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 04:59:24 pm

Quote from: Lech on July 18, 2012, 04:55:45 pm

what if you choose spawn yourself? AT least it should work this way.

In Siege 2.0 (currently under construction by Ozin) you will be able to choose from a couple different spawn points, not sure 100% on details.
Also many other changes.

This post just explains how it works currently.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Rumblood on July 18, 2012, 07:11:45 pm

Thanks for the info!

+1 reknown  :wink:

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Sarpton on July 18, 2012, 07:16:44 pm

Great info here.  This is the kind of stuff we, as the unwashed masses we are,  need to know.   Would save everyone so much heart ache and grief.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:00:34 pm

Shit gameplay mode, take it down.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: HardRice on July 18, 2012, 09:02:12 pm

Quote from: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:00:34 pm

Shit gameplay mode, take it down.

Get the fuck off, retard.


Thanks for the info, elindor, +1  :)

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:04:55 pm

my feeling are so hurt right meow

And yes ty OP for informing us of how teh mystery of siege spawn points work. The few time I have played I wondered why the hell do i get spawned so far away.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:08:34 pm

love comments from "watched" people like you and Bjord...usually explains why they are "watched" in the first place :)

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:10:50 pm

I love comments from all of you forum tards as well. They usually criticize me while stroking your epeens. Quite revealing of yalls character.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:12:18 pm

Hmm, yeah don't think i've done any of that.

Let's stay on topic.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:12:59 pm

mmm yea i think you have bud. But anyways...

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 18, 2012, 09:21:23 pm

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:28:27 pm

Quote from: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:00:34 pm

Shit gameplay mode, take it down.

Well you did enter the thread with the above, which is 100% off topic ....

I just noted that your "watched" tag doesn't surprise me.
No offense, of course.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:36:53 pm

Well fine then i'll elaborate.  In siege due to quite a few "gameplay elements" defense is almost impossible.
my comment shit gameplay mode take it down. was "building" off of...

Quote from: Peasant_Woman on July 18, 2012, 04:38:42 pm

Even if most of it is along the lines of 'Shit map take it down.'  :lol:

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Tears of Destiny on July 18, 2012, 09:21:23 pm

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Watch out we got a fail of an admin over here.

edit: I'm done please resume this thread as if I was nevar here.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Jarlek on July 19, 2012, 12:37:49 am

Thanks OP. I wonder how it will be when Ozin is finished with his Siege 2.0.

@Le Troll.

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:10:50 pm

I love comments from all of you forum tards as well. They usually criticize me while stroking your epeens. Quite revealing of yalls character.

I always stroke my penis when I read the forums. Can't do it with the epeen though, as it's so small :(

Quote from: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:36:53 pm

Well fine then i'll elaborate.  In siege due to quite a few "gameplay elements" defense is almost impossible.
my comment shit gameplay mode take it down. was "building" off of...

(click to show/hide)

Watch out we got a fail of an admin over here.

edit: I'm done please resume this thread as if I was nevar here.

Say that to my 30 minute x5 streak where most of the time was spent defending I just left today.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: HardRice on July 19, 2012, 02:50:12 am

Quote from: betard_lulz on July 18, 2012, 09:36:53 pm

Well fine then i'll elaborate.  In siege due to quite a few "gameplay elements" defense is almost impossible.
my comment shit gameplay mode take it down. was "building" off of...

You missed chaos banner stacking on defense earlier, apparently, a screen for you chronic masturbators.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Defense is easily possible, just need some competent players/clan stack.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 19, 2012, 04:12:56 am

Elindor thanks for the explanation. Nudges me one step closer to trying my hand at map making.  :)

Re: defense in siege: totally depends on the map. some maps are more skewed towards defense, others towards offense. You should never say 'fuck it my team is meant to lose' because then you will play worse and help your team lose!

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 19, 2012, 05:12:55 am

Quote from: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:08:34 pm

love comments from "watched" people like you and Bjord...usually explains why they are "watched" in the first place :)

Hello

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: dreadnok on July 19, 2012, 09:04:24 am

Gay

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Elindor on July 19, 2012, 09:07:08 am

As always thanks for your contribution Dreadylocks!  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: Phew on July 19, 2012, 04:23:00 pm

Siege should be balanced until the mean offense win rate of all maps in the rotation is 50%. Note that I didn't say every map should have an offense win rate of 50%, as siege is more fun when certain maps favor attackers or defenders.

However, I don't think the way to balance these maps is by adjusting the spawn points Elindor described, as that sounds tedious and iterative. The easy way is just to adjust the defense respawn timer on a per-map basis. You could apply an algorithm whereby each map has a "target" offense win rate (with the mean of all maps in the rotation being 50%, as I said before), and just have code that progressively alters the defender respawn timer until the target offense win rate is achieved on a running average basis.

Now, I don't know if it's actually possible to implement what I described, but I think it's the simplest way to balance siege. It would also be a great opportunity to re-introduce some of the classic native maps that were removed from the rotation due to imbalance.

Title: Re: PSA - How Spawns Work in Siege Mode
Post by: celti on July 19, 2012, 04:56:50 pm

So then it is definitely possible to have maps with minimum spawn requirements such as:
 - Attackers do not spawn within the castle walls.
 - Defense does not spawn inside or on top of the gatehouse.
 - Defense does not spawn outside of their own castle walls.

I feel like defenders spawning a good distance from the flag is necessary, otherwise a few good shielders could contest the flag indefinitely with staggered spawns.

Quote from: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 04:01:55 pm

- Watch the results and/or gather feedback (community is so helpful and constructive with this, of course :) )

Haha, I feel so bad for you Elindor.
Keep up the good work and keep ignoring the trolls.
Your maps have evolved into very interesting and balanced maps, which keeps me interested in this game.