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cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:24:20 am

Title: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:24:20 am
Thread WAS locked because most comments are not helpful, but decided to open it up anyhow....try to be constructive, if you think it's "horrible" say why and what would make it better in your opinion.  Thanks.

Himmelsberg Monastery (Siege NA2/EU2) V1.0

There is a main gate, a side door on attackers' left, and a tunnel on backside.  Main door is slightly ajar creating chokepoint into sanctuary where flag is.  On side of main sanctuary (accessable from main courtyard) there is a switchback stair that leads to top of sanctuary and attacker's can climb down towards flag. 

:: SCREENSHOTS ::
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 03:48:13 pm
Bump - opened this up to comments because I'm a masochist  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: dynamike on July 18, 2012, 04:46:28 pm
Wow, this looks fantastic!  :shock: Can't wait to play it!
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Lech on July 18, 2012, 07:16:57 pm
Pretty map, but have no points defenders try to hold not counting the flag.

There are three entrances to the flag: Doors, Backdoors and Roof. Doors and backdoors are very easy to defend. Roof is bit harder without mauls, but still very good for defenders.

So the proven tactic is just camp the flag and entrances after stabbing trough the main gate to delay defenders at the start of round.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 18, 2012, 07:19:49 pm
isnt there a forum section for threads like this ?
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 18, 2012, 07:21:18 pm
isnt there a forum section for threads like this ?
You are aware no one ever reads that section, right?
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 07:31:40 pm
^ This.

cmp moves them after a while, but he and I have an agreement.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 07:32:34 pm
Pretty map, but have no points defenders try to hold not counting the flag.

There are three entrances to the flag: Doors, Backdoors and Roof. Doors and backdoors are very easy to defend. Roof is bit harder without mauls, but still very good for defenders.

So the proven tactic is just camp the flag and entrances after stabbing trough the main gate to delay defenders at the start of round.

Partially true. (Partially not the case, too).  But that's partially true of any map right now.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Bjord on July 18, 2012, 07:35:11 pm
Hills look unrealistic, just saying.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 07:40:13 pm
Your hair looks unrealistic  8-)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Joker86 on July 18, 2012, 07:42:37 pm
Hills look unrealistic, just saying.

True, but there's nothing that can't be fixed with a nice, fitting texture - no need to remodel them. Make them "rockier" with snow only on the tops and it will look as perfect as the rest. (Although nobody would build those stairs to directly lead onto the roof  :wink: )

Edit: to judge the map properly:

a) is the wall inside the monastery low enough to shoot from the sides down onto the entrance road?
b) that tower on that corner, left of the gate (from the view of the attackers), which is between the main and the side gate, does it have those "murder holes" (that's how they are called in German) in the floor? Looks it could have them. Would make that corner a pretty deadly bottleneck.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 18, 2012, 07:44:07 pm
I love it, a unique feel instead of "Another small weird castle."

I can't wait to test it properly.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 08:07:08 pm
One thing I have noticed is that offense is usually missing a major route to the flag.

Once attack gets into the main courtyard, they can go RIGHT to the doors of the sanctuary, or they can go LEFT through an arch.  Past that arch is the staircase that leads up the side of the sanctuary to the roof.  From the roof you can climb down a ladder into the upper level of the sanctuary and then either jump down (usually no dmg) or take the stairs down.  Also, defenders spawn here so you can take many out as they spawn and cut off their reinforcements to the flag.

Even if 1/3 the attacking team goes this way it can lead to success.  If the defending team has the doorway of the sanctuary sealed up, at least half the attacking team should go the way I just described.

Here you can see the arch on the left side...
(click to show/hide)

It leads to this...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Digglez on July 18, 2012, 08:14:18 pm
why do you keep posting these in general section?

Also map gameplay was less than stellar.  I like the theme/setting and hope you will make some serious revisions.

1)  Obvious shortest way to flag was WAY too constricted and easy to defend. 
2)  Side door was too close to the front, so defenders could all fight in a 20x40 blob.  Every archer on defense covering the main entrance could also shoot at people coming in side door which shouldnt be possible.
3)  Flag area is too small.  Basically anyone without a 70 reach 1h is going to teamhit or get stuck on something.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Joker86 on July 18, 2012, 08:14:45 pm
Edit: to judge the map properly:

a) is the wall inside the monastery low enough to shoot from the sides down onto the entrance road?
b) that tower on that corner, left of the gate (from the view of the attackers), which is between the main and the side gate, does it have those "murder holes" (that's how they are called in German) in the floor? Looks it could have them. Would make that corner a pretty deadly bottleneck.

c) I see a ladder right of the sanctuary gate, leading up the "ring wall roof". Can you reach the sanctuary roof from there, or only over the left side via stairs?
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 08:16:46 pm
Diggles your question has already been answered - no one reads scene editing and i've already approved this with cmp (he moves them later)
And the secondary route is not out of the way, it stems from the main courtyard where all attackers go.
This happens anytime a new map is in rotation - people need time to "learn" it.  Although this one is pretty simple.

Joker - only stairs as depicted in my post a couple back.
Most attackers still aren't using it. 
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Joker86 on July 18, 2012, 08:27:47 pm
And what about a) and b)? I think they are rather important, a lot of damage could be dealt from there.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 08:37:31 pm
Good ideas, but if anything I've seen defense being at an advantage already, so not sure I would want to add more to their defense...there's places to shoot at the attackers opening front gate and side gate already.

And you can't get in that tower you mentioned.
The monastery walls could shoot down on attackers coming in, yeah.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Joker86 on July 18, 2012, 08:46:37 pm
Good ideas, but if anything I've seen defense being at an advantage already, so not sure I would want to add more to their defense...there's places to shoot at the attackers opening front gate and side gate already.

Well okay, as I was only asking and not suggesting, I guess this means no to both - you can't shoot down the sides of the wall and no, you can't shoot down the tower... well, okay, as we agree, this would make the map rather unbalanced in favour of the defenders.

...although I think it's a pity, because those two elements would be really nice defenses...

Another question: is it possible to implement destructible items (like doors) of any shape (unlike doors) onto a map? With as many hitpoints as you want to have? And can the destruction of such an item have the result of another item moving (like a siege tower)? Because I always whished to see a map where the attackers throw something down from above onto the castle, like abig rock or something. It would have been secured by some wooden framework, which needs to be destroyed, but then another path is open. On the other hand the wooden framework would be really tough and totally exposed to enemy fire... but I guess it's a) impossible and b) too much of a change to implement it in this map.  :wink:
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 08:55:01 pm
Siege 2.0 (under construction by Ozin currently) will have the ability to place doors (maybe other objects too?) with HP that you can set. 

Currently, no, just doors with preset HP.

I know, I would love other options too.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:53:42 pm
Seeing a slight majority in "defense has advantage" develop, which I may agree with if I had to choose.
Will watch the poll and the in game results more...

If I change anything it will probably be things like :
- May open door to sanctuary a little wider to make it less defensible slightly
- Move some defense spawns
- Move the defense center spawn point
- Remove the door in the tunnel
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 19, 2012, 01:50:22 am
Bump - would like to see more votes come in over time...
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Tor! on July 19, 2012, 04:51:16 am
This map looks very nice! Good job.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Turboflex on July 19, 2012, 03:43:59 pm
not sure why people are voting that defence has an advantage... It's true the first choke is fairly strong, but once attack breaks those double doors and pushes through and forces defence back their only fighting spot is at flag. Only an elite D could hold that choke for the whole round, considering it's right beside attacker spawn. At that point it's just a straight 20 second run from attacker spawn to flag.

I would add a gate with opening mechanism to the main door of monestary.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Digglez on July 19, 2012, 03:56:18 pm
not sure why people are voting that defence has an advantage... It's true the first choke is fairly strong, but once attack breaks those double doors and pushes through and forces defence back their only fighting spot is at flag. Only an elite D could hold that choke for the whole round, considering it's right beside attacker spawn. At that point it's just a straight 20 second run from attacker spawn to flag.

I would add a gate with opening mechanism to the main door of monestary.

Because flag has 2 even smaller chokepoints, the gap in the doubledoors which 3 shielders can block easily and the stairs up which 2 people can block easily.  Archers all the while have massive height bonus and owning the crap outta incoming attackers.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 19, 2012, 04:00:46 pm
Uh oh - NH infighting!

Run!  :shock:
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Turboflex on July 19, 2012, 04:15:12 pm
Because flag has 2 even smaller chokepoints, the gap in the doubledoors which 3 shielders can block easily and the stairs up which 2 people can block easily.  Archers all the while have massive height bonus and owning the crap outta incoming attackers.

In theory a lot of maps have really badass chokepoints that a shieldwall/archer formation could defend forever. In reality it rarely happens.

When the map came up last night attackers won easily 3-0, the close spawn to flag distance overwhelming the D with #s once the doors were broken down.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 19, 2012, 04:21:22 pm
I've seen this go both ways now.

Originally I was concerned it might give offense a slight advantage but needed testing.

When it first got on the servers it seemed defense had big advantage because people were not using alternate route to flag (side stairs), but now that they are, it is seeming to many to have an offensive advantage.

I'll let it settle out some and continue watching it before doing anything to it.

---

And to your point Turboflex, you are right that most people do not do that.

I try to balance my maps for what I call "average play" which I see as:
- a fairly full server
- balanced level of clan presence (so if there are 10 CLAN X on offense, defense needs to have 10 CLAN Y)

It's all you can really do.  Can't balance for low pop (defense suffers usually), and can't balance for one side having massive clan presence and other side having little.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Joker86 on July 19, 2012, 07:09:08 pm
But perhaps two organized team with teamspeak like in strat could deliver a final result, as they are most likely capable of showing the best performance possible for defenders and attackers, and how those best performances behave on that map. If this test has the result of a draw or close to it, you can assume the map is balanced.

Of course there is always the possibility that on pugs the results can vary. The reason for that is often that pugs rather play "instictively", and if somehow, due to map design, for one team the best strategy is somehow unconsciously suggested by the map, for the other team the map suggests something sub-par, the results will deviate. But I guess that's a rather special case.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 19, 2012, 07:40:43 pm
Agreed...unfortunately the only proper venue with enough people is basically the servers themselves....

So currently best way to balance is :  get it as close as you can while in design (thinking through things, timing runs, etc), and then throw it up on servers, see results over time as best you can, revise...etc
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 20, 2012, 04:50:50 pm
....and one more bump for good measure
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 21, 2012, 06:38:45 am
From the poll im gonna say the overall result is very slight defensive advantage

I will consider ways to adjust things slightly.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Dionysus on July 21, 2012, 06:45:35 am
I had the opportunity to play this map with small teams, and I noticed at the flag that defenders have quite a bit of room to navigate. I should note that I was playing my crossbow alt, and ran in any situation I had to. The map seemed pretty balanced, to be honest, but I can see that defenders have a slight advantage.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP BALANCE FEEDBACK - Himmelsberg Monastery
Post by: Elindor on July 23, 2012, 07:11:21 pm
Ok, small update to the monastery has been submitted (as all updates, won't be updated till server is restarted)

HIMMELSBERG MONASTERY (1.1)  7/23/2012
All pretty minor changes overall since I think this one was mostly balanced, but should overall give offense a slightly better chance.

- made main door opening into sanctuary (where flag is) slightly WIDER
- increased visibility and access from the main courtyard to the SIDE STAIRS (leads to roof of sanctuary)
- widened overhang platforms on second story of sanctuary to allow for easy descent from roof
- revised and slightly minimized the pews in the sanctuary to allow for better combat flow
- removed a number of candles and other particle creating objects to help reduce any FPS lag that may have been present