cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Torost on July 12, 2012, 02:30:16 pm
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Take a good infantrybuild
Lots of PS and Melee WPF.
Put on some heavy armor.
Mail body and Gloves. Nice boots and a strong helmet. Board and blade, Greatsword or Polearm.
You got 2 slots left.. what to do?
(Crossbow usable for level 3 and up)
MW hunting crossbow 45p 3504g (1)
MW Bolts 5p 193g (16)
Total dmg:50pierce ammo:17 cost:3697gold
MW Horn Bow 27c 7896
MW Bodkin Arrows 2p 5058 (17)
Total Dmg(PD:5):49p Ammo:17 Cost:12954gold
Congratulations , you are now infantry AND ranged.
Infact you hit just as hard as the usual Hornbow archer, only its much cheaper.
Hornbow gear costs 250% more! What a bargain!
You did not have to remove even one point or wpf from your infantrybuild .
And none of that crappy armor with substandard effects from looming. Reinforced! Pffff... Lordly is the way to go!
If you feel like really investing into ranged, do not roll an archer. Go get a
(Crossbow usable from level 5 and up)
MW Crossbow 62p 10474 gold (1)
MW Bolts 5p 193g (16)
Total dmg: 67p ammo:17 cost:10667gold
MW Rus bow 31p 9974
MW Bodkin Arrows 2p 5058 (17)
Total dmg(PD:6):61p Ammo:17 Cost 15032gold
You then do more damage than even the dedicated 2slot archers that costs 41% more to use!
But there must be a catch? right?!?!
Yes the BIG catch is that you have to use 4-5 seconds reloading at your own chosing behind cover with an animation that hides 50% of you body.
Instead of the 2-3 second it takes to draw a bow exposed in the open.
But that BIG catch is offset by better accuracy,higher dmg,lightning fast bolts and ability to hold ur aim til perfect. Shoot thru shields!Shotgunning is fun too.
So go out there play toe to toe with the archers. And when things get hairy, trust in your heavy armor, full health and dedicated meleebuild.
While for the archer its game over.
/rant
Im sligtly disgruntled that any player can do the same and better than my archer for less gold/skillpoints/wpf and still have an untouched perfect meleebuild with heavy armor.
I figured this would correct itself over time ,but its been awhile now, and it seems nothing has changed.
I feel crossbows function more like firearms, and is a nofun way to play the game for those using it and other players exposed to them. Subjective ofc.
So im hoping you look over the situation again. I have listed below some measures that could make archery again the main provider of ranged capabilities with "minimal" impact on other classes.
Please implement some of the suggestions below :)
-Remove weightpenalties for archers
-Remove wpf/PD req. for archers
-Make all bows 1slot
-Make all crossbows 2slot
-Increase cost of crossbows and bolts
-Increase reloadtime on crossbows
-Increase bow and arrow dmg
-Put heirloombonuses on archergear on par with crossbows and bolts.
-give light armor the same heirloom bonuses as the other armors.
Thank you!
TLDR:Infantry with 1slot crossbows makes archers look ridiculous, QQ backed up with numbers and facts. Suggestions on how to normalize this situation.
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Now now, a crossbowman is not nearly as effective as a good rus-bow archer, and unlike a good archer will have to get most of his kills in melee. Granted crossbows are effective much sooner then archery is which requires high level to actually work, but if you think as a ranged class they are better, not really.
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I dont care, archery is cooler.
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Let us see my inc thread on throwing, you my old friendcher bitches got NOTHING to hate, and no, I ain't ever making a thread comparing throwing to bowing like this, but you need to shut the fuck up.
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I think u forgot the bonus damage (14%) with every powerdraw.
For the example Hornbow needs 5 powerstrike so it would make ~83 damage, when the bow and arrows are masterworked.
So whats your problem?
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lol Archery makes xbows obsolete you dumb tool stop posting bullshit.
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No fence to you but this thread is complete BS.
Consider that bows can fire 2 shots by the time a crossbow fires 1.
Plus you can reload while moving! Wow! If an archer could learn to take advantage of this they'd be 2X better!
Make the longbow and warbow 1 slot? NO. How could big bows liek that be small enough for 1 slot?
Make all crossbows 2 slots? BS. They are perfectly balanced the way they are.
Crossbows started to piss me off after they removed the ability to fire in the air. They are nerfed enough as is.
My suggestion would be to decrease the accuracy of all crossbows BUT give a bigger increase to accuracy in crossbow wpf.
This way it'd be harder for melee builds to use a crossbow efficiently without high crossbow wpf.
BTW your heirloom stats are completely wrong. You don't get 16 ammo with MW steel bolts. You get only 13.
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Ground xbow users?
No. My Archer hybrid build eats those xbow builds at range and is equal in melee. I won't die in one shot and you won't get another.
Now if we are talking about HX vs HA, I agree. No reason to make a HA when you can make a superior HX.
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Now if we are talking about HX vs HA, I agree. No reason to make a HA when you can make a superior HX.
True , i played HA and HX and i have to say HX is more powerful than HA, anyone can tell me the reason why they made Horse archery skill so low? I played STF on HA and i have to say their accuracy is very shit indeed, and yet they don't do very much damage , its like 1/3 damage compare to foot archers
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sir, you must be quite noob if you can't beat fukken hybrid freaks at range with your bow.. xbows are already nerfed as hell with the last few patches, slots increased, ammo decreased, damage decreased, projectile speed decreased, what else left to nerf? no need to mention fucking rain nerf which happens all the time.
ebin fail..
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HX vs HA and the HA wins IMO. Even given the fact the HX can still reload while moving.
As far as being more effective when it comes to kills and taking out enemy cavalry/horses, the HX all the way.
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I have played dedicated crossbowman, dedicated archer, hybrid crossbow/shielder, and horse archer builds.
Crossbow (and its lack of point investment) make it much more favorable for hybrids than archery. On the other hand, dedicated archery builds let you fire arrow after arrow with amazing speed and damage on par with most crossbow setups. They aren't equal but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other. They are useful for different things :)
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HX vs HA and the HA wins IMO. Even given the fact the HX can still reload while moving.
As far as being more effective when it comes to kills and taking out enemy cavalry/horses, the HX all the way.
Let's see Rohyp and Murchad go at it and settle it once and for all!
Best 3 of 5
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Psychoyeah: I did account for powerdrawbonus, but not wpf(crpg blackbox alchemy) the numbers are accurate enough for comparison.
Strider: The ammoamount is correct, I wrote MW Bolts, not MW steel bolts that makes the dmg even higher.
The point here is not if 1slot crossbows are equal,sligthly better or worse.
Its that dedicated melee can have the same capabilities as archers at no other cost than 3697gold.
The real upkeepcost from archery comes from repairing those bodkin arrows. While the bolts cost almost nothing to repair.
Archers face camping heavy armor shielders that 1-2 shots.(headshots are more likely ,since its easier to aim with crossbow,and harder to dodge).
Should be so lucky to actually hit them the brief second they are in line of sight ,the arrow does little dmg to their heavy armor, The crossbowuser just shields up and either moves to safe location or come running at you shield infront.
The restrictions placed on archery stem from earlier versions of crpg, where noone would consider playing crossbow, since it was so lame.
Inorder to curb the massive frustration with archery dominance,some maybe ill advised req. were put in place and has stayed this way.
No req on crossbows makes sense from a historical perspective, it displaced bow and arrow.And eventually the armored knight.
Archers wore proper armor and sidearm aswell, but somehow that is not what crpg wants archers to be.
Ingame this makes archery somewhat redundant as a class.
Crossbows have stats balanced to rival a level 30 archer
And they can be used by anyone at almost no cost.
I and many other archers play with bows no matter what, because that is what we think is fun.
But would be more fun if not pushed into beeing a pure noveltyclass.
It will happen as more and more infantry equip crossbows.
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I think u forgot the bonus damage (14%) with every powerdraw.
For the example Hornbow needs 5 powerstrike so it would make ~83 damage, when the bow and arrows are masterworked.
So whats your problem?
His problem is probably that you're completely wrong.
PD gives the 14% bonus only for each PD ABOVE the PD requirement for the bow, so 5 PS hornbow : 0% PD bonus. Nevermind that. Me being dumb, again.
On the other hand, wpf gives a slight damage bonus.
But if hornbow could deal ~83 damage (how the hell did you even manage to type that without facepalming ?), they'de one shot most people...
Xbows are very usefull, and good xbowmen are more accurate than good archers. But when there's cav coming for you, the archer can stand his ground, whereas the xbow has to downblock. Real archers are always a threat. A reloading crossbowman is not a threat, and gives you 2sec peace. Use it well.
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His problem is probably that you're completely wrong.
PD gives the 14% bonus only for each PD ABOVE the PD requirement for the bow, so 5 PS hornbow : 0% PD bonus.
So wrong. Each PD gives you 14% more damage, but it has an upper limit at PD requirement +4. A guy with a horn bow and 6 PD gets the bonus from all 6 PD, not just the 1 above the requirement.
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Why nerf me?
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Crossbow is great weapon, great in the hands of pure builds but also good for hybrids. Archery on the other hand is great if you're rolling pure build and sucks if you're trying to make hybrid archer. Solution is simple, buff archer hybrids.
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Crossbow is great weapon, great in the hands of pure builds but also good for hybrids. Archery on the other hand is great if you're rolling pure build and sucks if you're trying to make hybrid archer. Solution is simple, buff archer hybrids.
What is this? I don't even.....is this Leshma?
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Crossbow is great weapon, great in the hands of pure builds but also good for hybrids. Archery on the other hand is great if you're rolling pure build and sucks if you're trying to make hybrid archer. Solution is simple, buff archer hybrids.
Then half the players would be carrying a bow, which is bad. I agree with the devs on this point.
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Crossbow is great weapon, great in the hands of pure builds but also good for hybrids. Archery on the other hand is great if you're rolling pure build and sucks if you're trying to make hybrid archer. Solution is simple, buff archer hybrids.
Not entirely true though.
On my 21/18 hybrid archer alt character with +3 Horn bow and 7 PD, on average, all I give up is a bit of athletics and on average 3 damage over a 18/2x +3 Rus bow/Long bow build for the ability to have 7 PS in melee combat and the ability to field a 1 slotted weapon.
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Not entirely true though.
On my 21/18 hybrid archer alt character with +3 Horn bow and 7 PD, on average, all I give up is a bit of athletics and on average 3 damage over a 18/2x +3 Rus bow/Long bow build for the ability to have 7 PS in melee combat and the ability to field a 1 slotted weapon.
Yep. Nothing wrong with hybrid archers.
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So wrong. Each PD gives you 14% more damage, but it has an upper limit at PD requirement +4. A guy with a horn bow and 6 PD gets the bonus from all 6 PD, not just the 1 above the requirement.
Knew about the +4 above PD limit, but not that the actual meant anything.
Does PD add the percentage damage based on BOW, or based on BOW+ARROWS.
Because... Mw horn bow, Mw Tatar arrows : 33 base damage. 6 PD : +84% : 60.72 damage. Without the wpf. Yes, it's cut damage... but... still... I doubt it do this much damage to even an unarmored person.
Doesn't feel right. :s
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Knew about the +4 above PD limit, but not that the actual meant anything.
Does PD add the percentage damage based on BOW, or based on BOW+ARROWS.
Because... Mw horn bow, Mw Tatar arrows : 33 base damage. 6 PD : +84% : 60.72 damage. Without the wpf. Yes, it's cut damage... but... still... I doubt it do this much damage to even an unarmored person.
Doesn't feel right. :s
Sounds about the average damage archers does. This 60.72 though is probably with the best possible diceroll at absolute point blank and unmitigated by armor though.
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Not entirely true though.
On my 21/18 hybrid archer alt character with +3 Horn bow and 7 PD, on average, all I give up is a bit of athletics and on average 3 damage over a 18/2x +3 Rus bow/Long bow build for the ability to have 7 PS in melee combat and the ability to field a 1 slotted weapon.
Xbowmen don't have to sacrifice anything, can have proper 2H pure build with a little bit WM on top for xbow. Also they can use more armor and 2 slot greatsword.
I didn't say archer hybrid si completely useless but it does seem useless compared to xbow hybrid and that's why on every hybrid archer you see 50 or more xbow/2h hybrids.
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It would be so much easier if it would show the dice roll possibilities on the character page.
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Xbowmen don't have to sacrifice anything, can have proper 2H pure build with a little bit WM on top for xbow. Also they can use more armor and 2 slot greatsword.
I didn't say archer hybrid si completely useless but it does seem useless compared to xbow hybrid and that's why on every hybrid archer you see 50 or more xbow/2h hybrids.
True. I just mostly see archery vs crossbow as a difference in rate of fire more than anything else and the fact that some people might like or find melee easier than ranged.
I see it as Crossbow hybrid being melee orientated rangers and Archers hybrid as ranged orientated rangers. Unless pure builds, but that's something else.
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Xbowmen don't have to sacrifice anything, can have proper 2H pure build with a little bit WM on top for xbow. Also they can use more armor and 2 slot greatsword.
I didn't say archer hybrid si completely useless but it does seem useless compared to xbow hybrid and that's why on every hybrid archer you see 50 or more xbow/2h hybrids.
Archer hybrids are fine, but pure archers are too powerful. Make them as xbows, at it's most efficient when hybrided.
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Then half the players would be carrying a bow, which is bad. I agree with the devs on this point.
80% of infantry players carry ranged weapon, xbow or throwing stuff. I'm talking about EU1. Even Tzar, who hates everything ranged couldn't cope with archers so he started carrying javelins or something like that.
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Archer hybrids are fine, but pure archers are too powerful.
I disagree.
Pure archers who are fully loomed and have proper proper high level build are strong. Those who have everything listed and a lot of experience are powerful. But none of them is too powerful, not even bagge.
Pubbies don't know how to fight archers, just like they don't know how to fight cav. And because of that both classes seem too powerful for them. But that's not true, this is coming from a player who rarely uses shields yet killed so many archers.
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Archer hybrids are fine, but pure archers are too powerful. Make them as xbows, at it's most efficient when hybrided.
What? It is far more effective to use those last 4-5 WPF at the 165-170 range in a melee WPF instead for 50 WPF in 1 hander and drop a couple skill points into PS instead so you actually get melee kills in a round.
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