cRPG

Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Penitent on July 09, 2012, 05:58:11 pm

Title: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Penitent on July 09, 2012, 05:58:11 pm
Look at these two pictures:

(click to show/hide)


(click to show/hide)

Swiss pikemen were prized mercenaries due to their loyalty and discipline.  Such discipline and drilling allowed for tight pike formations and maneuvers that were very efficient and unheard of on the medieval battlefield at the time.  It changed much of the way battles were fought from then onward in central Europe.

The Greeks were doing virtually the same thing...but over a thousand years earlier!

What happened?  Was this formation "technology" lost?  Did battlefield conditions change thus that is caused the phalanx formation to no longer be useful, then came full circle around again over 1,500 years later so that this formation was indeed successful again?  What else could be going on?

Does anyone know if there are any major differences between these two formations, or how they were used?  The hoplites had shields, obviously...but what else?

Just some observations and questions. :)
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Christo on July 09, 2012, 06:10:47 pm
First of all, it was the Macedonians, who used the "Phalanx" to it's full with their Pezhetaroi, and other types of Sarissa carrying infantry.

The Greeks "Hoplite" didn't disappear, Roman infantry had Spear/Shielders on the field, and guess what was the most used "loadout" in the middle ages. The spear, and the shield. Anyway the Greeks also had to adapt to the Sarissae using Macedonians at some point.

The "loss" of this particular style of fighting could've happened because of two things. First, the Roman way of fighting just made phalanxes obsolete, so it wasn't as useful after that. One could also argue that many re-discoveries happened during the dark ages and after, because of the "barbarians" destroyed Rome, Europe went back centuries in terms of technology and culture.

Then, during the supremacy of the knight, these long spear formations became a pretty good choice, considering they could negate charges easily, the pike was the deciding factor on the battlefields at this point, until Gunpowder became too widespread and popular.

The lack of shields.. well I'd say that they went for more mobility instead of ranged defense. Very odd thing when archery and guns were all over the place, but shields were almost useless at the time period pikes were re-discovered and used en-masse.

Keep it in mind that this is my opinion and I used no website to confirm anything. So feel free to correct me, Must've said something stupid along these lines.

Ah, about to their differences. Well, the Macedonian Phalanx was HUGE. I remember reading about it and it was a MANY miles long line, like a moving frontline armed with 3-5 meter long spears and shields.

The Swiss and others like the Tercio, used other methods like Pike squares, and mixing firearms and pikes, covering the gunners while reloading, etc.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: NuberT on July 09, 2012, 06:30:21 pm
I came upon Anatoly_Fomenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko) recently, who claims, like others before him, that the whole ancient history was actually imagined in the renaissance.

I really want to read his books, but I just don't have the time atm and its a lot to read.. its like all those big things either you say: pure bullshit or wow can this actually be :shock:
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Bjord on July 09, 2012, 06:33:33 pm
You mean conspiracy theories, NuberT?

Yeah, they're often made believable on purpose. But it's still just a conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: [ptx] on July 09, 2012, 06:39:41 pm
NuberT, really? Come on, you can do better than that. Earth is also round, not flat.

IMHO, it's about military tradition. The hellenic people were conquered by romans, that had a different approach to warfare (which incidentally turned out to counter the phalanx rather well). Thus, they didn't maintain the hoplite/phalanx traditions of the greeks. Roman empire (both halves) maintained their military tradition till they were no more. The "barbaric" europeans, that had overtaken Western Rome had their own approach to warfare. It took the swiss a serious threat from being surrounded by forces that made heavy use of knights to develop this counter for it.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: NuberT on July 09, 2012, 06:51:40 pm
Did I say anywhere I do believe in any of it? I am interested in such stuff and able to make my own thoughts unlike you small minded people.  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Turboflex on July 09, 2012, 06:52:25 pm
I believe part of it is explained been the loss of cohesive states through the dark ages and early/high medieval. A pike/phalanx formation needs constistent training which would come from a state organization (city or nation) and after Rome fell, state-organizations mostly broke down to Kings who only controlled small areas and depended on largely indepedant barons and lords to bring soldiers to them. These lords were not interested in training peasants into soldiers, but maintaining a small professional soldier class of themselves and their household.

Pikes formations made a comeback when states started reforming, the Swiss federation, also city-states in Flanders and Germany were big on pikes and had a population of armed citizens living together who were dedicated to the necessary training. Later in the renaissance major nations of France, Spain, etc. all began fielding standing trained armies which included pike formations.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Penitent on July 09, 2012, 06:57:28 pm
Hmmm..good insights.

Here's a followup.  If Rome's tactics were able to make the phalance obsolete (they had large, curved shields and a "decentralized" or "individualistic/loose" formation fighting style, allowing them to slip in between the pikes and stabby them) what stopped other European nations from doing the same thing later on and rendering swiss pike squares obsolete?

Sure the pike squares had cavalry and ranged troops to support the squares, but so did the greeks to an extent.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: [ptx] on July 09, 2012, 07:05:22 pm
Afaik, the phalanx was somewhat different from the medieval pike-walls, better suited to dealing with infantry, but more rigid and thus less flexible. Not really how did the Romans counter it, but they did, apparently.

Noone said that the pike formations were any good against well armoured sword-and-board troops (dismounted knights?) or other such infantry. It's just that they actually kept the cavalry off, whilst ranged troops (crossbowmen) could deal with other infantry. Or am i mistaken here?
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Turboflex on July 09, 2012, 07:42:25 pm
Hmmm..good insights.

Here's a followup.  If Rome's tactics were able to make the phalance obsolete (they had large, curved shields and a "decentralized" or "individualistic/loose" formation fighting style, allowing them to slip in between the pikes and stabby them) what stopped other European nations from doing the same thing later on and rendering swiss pike squares obsolete?

Sure the pike squares had cavalry and ranged troops to support the squares, but so did the greeks to an extent.  What do you think?

There's only a couple of battles of Greek phalanx vs Roman legions. The Greek phalax stood up very well head to head but they lost the battles when it was outmaneuvered tactically by better commanders. The Romans did not have any special gear to get through a wall of 8 foot long spears, which remained a very effective frontal tactic through to even napoleonic times. Sword & Buckler soldiers were utried by the Spanish for a while in the renaissance as an anti-pikewall measure, they had limited success and didn't last long.

Pike squares were phased out during the 30 years war as more and muskets were integrated. At the beginning a typical mixed formation was like 20:80 muskets to pikes and by the end was like 80:20. The emphasis on ranged fighting gradually shifting and proving preffered to melee I guess as muskets/artillery improved and became more common. You still needed some pikes and other guys mixed in but the preference had shifted to firepower.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Lange on July 09, 2012, 08:09:10 pm
So the real question would be "why didn't the romans use sarissae to complement their way of fighting". Especially against the parthian cavalry or the likes...


Did I say anywhere I do believe in any of it? I am interested in such stuff and able to make my own thoughts unlike you small minded people.  :mrgreen:
The normal person made his own thoughts on such ludicrous claims already. Even finding such a read just worth the time to look at it suggests a rather strange disposition, let alone mentioning it in a serious historical debate. (Though the premise sounds at least entertaining to read. Like, the way an animal tripping it's own tail is entertaining.  :lol:)
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: NuberT on July 09, 2012, 09:32:37 pm
So the real question would be "why didn't the romans use sarissae to complement their way of fighting". Especially against the parthian cavalry or the likes...

The normal person made his own thoughts on such ludicrous claims already. Even finding such a read just worth the time to look at it suggests a rather strange disposition, let alone mentioning it in a serious historical debate. (Though the premise sounds at least entertaining to read. Like, the way an animal tripping it's own tail is entertaining.  :lol:)

I would say the normal person refuses to even to think about such stuff, let alone to read more then 2000 pages :P.

Apart from that the man has spent like 30 years on his work, its kinda unfair to judge on his work without having read a single piece of it, but probably hes just a mathematician, who went crasy 30 years ago^^
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Uumdi on July 10, 2012, 09:27:46 am
Phalanx more like phallus HEH
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Imloxion on July 11, 2012, 10:39:41 am
What happened?  Was this formation "technology" lost?  Did battlefield conditions change thus that is caused the phalanx formation to no longer be useful, then came full circle around again over 1,500 years later so that this formation was indeed successful again?  What else could be going on?

No it isnt lost,the battlefield conditions changed due to the low-level of that time .The phalanx requires excellent teamwork and organization and it is the most superior tactic of the time,thats why the people of that time couldnt correspond to it.The swiss pikemen show us how superior was the phalanx in noumerous battles,even as a low class phalanx type.

 The hoplites had shields, obviously...but what else?

The hoplites used much shorter spears than the later sarissa,their shields protect the warrior next to them(shortly you fight to protect the one next to you),a phalanx worked as a very solid body,being unbreakable by the enemy.Their main tactic was a complete pulse against the enemy unit (the soldiers at the back push the soldiers in front of them) disbanding it with a steady march.The classic phalanx had 8 lines and later around 16.But with the usage of firearms and big radius explosive it could be effective anymore :(
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Sarpton on July 21, 2012, 05:39:44 am
         
(click to show/hide)



TLDR version:   Pikes got out maneuvered by romans then got revived by scots as a cheap and effective way to counter heavy cav.   Pikes fell out of favor as cannons/guns got better .
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Gurnisson on July 21, 2012, 05:50:37 am
Did they pike through teammates and walls? No, that's for the true heroes of cRPG
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Lange on July 21, 2012, 09:47:23 pm
Awesome text
And how did shielders fare against a pikewall? Or heavily armored footmen? In my imagination, hurting these with a pike must have been difficult... but i must be wrong here. Could you explain?
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 22, 2012, 02:04:51 am

And how did shielders fare against a pikewall? Or heavily armored footmen? In my imagination, hurting these with a pike must have been difficult... but i must be wrong here. Could you explain?


Pikes vs foot-soldiers with shields is really difficult to imagine because they both couldn't reach eachother or get through their well defending weapons. Pushing with a pike square (the pike was elevated) was one form of fighting the enemy. You could assume that in this situation they degenerated to push the enemy maybe trying to hit him with a secondary weapon. This way the enemy formation could break and when it did they suffered the most casualties there.

For heavy armor and pikes, I don't know if they could penetrate it but often the men fighting in the squares were rather well trained and were quite strong, so a thrust of a pike surely damaged the enemy and if they weren't full armored and got hit on weak parts of their bodies their death was pretty sure I think.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Sarpton on July 22, 2012, 03:53:08 am
   

HEY EVERYONE SOME STUFF IN HERE I COPY PASTED FROM OTHER SITES! Priz_karl doesn't aprove of that shit!






 The issue with pike blocks versus a sword and shield "formation" is that in a head on fight the pike formation can and will put more soldiers into the same battle space as a sword and shield man.   The sword and shield (here after referred to as S/s) needs a minimum of one meter of clear area on each side to use the typical sword style of the time.   So that would be a battle space of; roughly 2 meters, per soldier.  Now in that same 2 meters a pike formation can put 3 soldiers into the same space.   

    Now the shield obviously gives a defensive edge but the issue is many shields where held by a simple cross bar and boss in the center of the shield.  And as such it was possible with a strong thrust to actually pivot the shield out of the way for one of the other pike men to attack the opening.   Against something like a shield wall it would be an unmitigated slaughter as the S/s man then loses his mobility and the chance of personal kinetic motion.

(click to show/hide)

      When just Spanish S/s-men fought against pikemen historically , they lost horribly. That's what happen to Gonzalo de Córdoba at first (at Seminara), but he learned quickly and got pikes of his own.
Sword&buckler-men were effective against the landsknechts at Ravenna because the Germans had already engaged with Spanish pikemen.   Maybe the sword&buckler-men had some victories against pikes without help, but to my knowledge Machiavelli was the only guy claiming such a thing, and he still suggested a force of both pikemen and sword&buckler-men.

And nobody really listened to Machiavelli anyway. At the end of the 16th century, Sir Roger Williams, a student of Spanish methods, made barely any mention of sword&buckler-men. He certainly didn't suggest using them to kill pikemen. He had far more respect for bills and halberds.

  Obviously the Romans solved this issue with closed rank formations as already discussed.   


  Now the Swiss pikemen alone are interesting as they relied on speed and combined arms as such only the front ranks of the Swiss were heavily armored; the ranks behind them wore little or no armor and would be vulnerable to some degree to arrows raining from above. Plus the front ranks could be vulnerable to heavy crossbows at close range. If only one in one hundred arrows/bolts actually wounded or killed it would have an effect. A man would drop to the ground or at a minimum drop his pike and stop advancing. This would cause some disruption to the ranks behind him and possibly to one file on either side.

The Swiss blocks advanced in echelon. So your cavalry either threatens the leading block on the side without supporting blocks or it threatens the rear block, and by such hopefully removing the Swiss reserve from the battle. Then you hope to defeat the leading two blocks with your infantry, both missile and possibly your own pikes.

And let's remember that in many victories attributed to the Swiss (but by no means all) they were mercenaries fighting in an army that provided the heavy cavalry and missile troops that supported their pikes. So they were often part of a combined arms army themselves. Their advance may have broken the enemy lines and gained the victory, but friendly cavalry countered enemy cavalry and friendly missile troops would have weakened the enemy line of infantry before their pikes crashed into it. Without that support some of their victories would have been defeats.

But again I have to say that in warfare timing is crucial as is how you use your different troop types. Mishandle your heavy cavalry and missile troops and yes, the Swiss will shatter your line. But if you use them correctly and the Swiss misjudge their timing you stand a good chance of beating the Swiss.

All in all, a combined arms army is superior to one that relies upon just one or two troop types. But it is also harder to coordinate and use the various troop types effectively.


**Some is my opinion but much is fact.

edited for many typos.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 22, 2012, 05:21:52 pm
Necron stop copying texts you obviously didn't write yourself and if you do just paste the link.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Sarpton on July 22, 2012, 07:39:48 pm
Necron stop copying texts you obviously didn't write yourself and if you do just paste the link.


As you wish.


http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000438.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Wars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arbedo  http://www.bellinzonaunesco.ch/castelliunesco/en/la_storia/tardo_medioevo.asp


http://www.ancientmilitary.com/spartan-weapons.htm

http://www.swordacademy.com/weapons-shield/index.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=eSEnw1HuWUoC&pg=PA423&lpg=PA423&dq=Morgarten+(1315),+Laupen+(1339),+Sempach+(1386),+and+Grandson+(1476&source=bl&ots=QRdppbHV-q&sig=FOkKs51pXnMGCT0gTnZdnl4_w1Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-TkMUNXiO4W09QTwtJTSCg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Morgarten%20(1315)%2C%20Laupen%20(1339)%2C%20Sempach%20(1386)%2C%20and%20Grandson%20(1476&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Morgarten

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Swiss_Way_of_War.html?id=p98etwAACAAJ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sempach


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Ms9RMH7IA&feature=related&hd=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8RWLxlzTiM&feature=related&hd=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpfv_VMaynQ&feature=related&hd=1


Your right this was much easier than modifying existing information to fit the current discussion!  This is a MUCH easier way to have a discussion over the internet.  Thanks friend.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 22, 2012, 08:34:01 pm
(click to show/hide)

You know it's a common rule to write down the reference of a copied text you didn't write yourself? or at least qoute it? If it's easier to leave the references out doesn't matter at all. Copying text from other people and acting as if you wrote it yourself is just a bad way of posting.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: [ptx] on July 22, 2012, 09:22:23 pm
No, that's plagiarism.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2012, 10:45:53 pm
The normal person made his own thoughts on such ludicrous claims already.
Indeed, because the "normal person" has the intelligence of a cucumber. In fact, they don't make up their mind regarding stuff like that. Their mind is made up for them: if it gets taught in school, it's fact. If it didn't, it's not. Going against what you were told in school is at best silly; at worst, lunacy. Same applies for the media, really. If you saw it on the telly, it's gospel. Critical thinking and using logic is something most people can't comprehend.

Case in point, that quote. How could someone have made up their mind about the subject "already" without having looked at the facts on both sides? The claim doesn't sound very convincing at first, no, but if you want to rise above the "normal people" you have to hold back your let's-ridicule-anything-that's-different reflex. Which, by the way, is just weakness.

"What do you think you know, and how do you think you know it?"
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: [ptx] on July 22, 2012, 10:52:33 pm
Xant, you are not getting Duke today.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2012, 11:00:07 pm
Duke is for bitches.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Sarpton on July 22, 2012, 11:32:55 pm
Hey man you don't believe I wrote a post in a forum on the internet cool man.   That's your right.   Why it matters I don't "get" but do you have a counter point to my posts?  If so let's get this back on track.


Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2012, 11:48:12 pm
Hey man you don't believe I wrote a post in a forum on the internet cool man.   That's your right.   Why it matters I don't "get" but do you have a counter point to my posts?  If so let's get this back on track.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Lange on July 23, 2012, 01:29:35 am
Indeed, because the "normal person" has the intelligence of a cucumber.
...
Critical thinking and using logic is something most people can't comprehend.
You're quite the example, I might say.

Anyway... You ARE right, any claim has to be looked at, theoretically. And just here and now, I could think of a multitude of ways to prove that the ancient times are indeed not just invented. It is true: I did never, myself, investigate non-western calendars or historic writing. I did never use carbon-dating myself or do archeology. But I know quite a bit about history myself, and all of these dates and events and processes do make sense in themselves. And I simply assume that, if history was actually totally different than we assume, there would be sufficient evidence to be found for all those people that actually do research history. And they would then show us this evidence... unless they are part of this massive, inpenetrable conspiracy (that does what, protect the claim of the romanovs, as wiki says?) Seems unlikely :lol:.
THIS is basically what goes on in the mind of a normal person.

Maybe I should really do all this research myself. But my time is limited, and the amount of bullshit floating around there is not. If I do want to be critical and have my own thoughts, I also have to be critical about how worthy a "controversial issue" actually is of my time and energy.


You know it's a common rule to write down the reference of a copied text you didn't write yourself? or at least qoute it? If it's easier to leave the references out doesn't matter at all. Copying text from other people and acting as if you wrote it yourself is just a bad way of posting.
That list IS impressive. I wonder wether necron is actually a certain german ex-minister of defence...
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Lange on July 23, 2012, 01:35:04 am
Damn doublepost. Delete this please.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 23, 2012, 02:22:57 am
Hey man you don't believe I wrote a post in a forum on the internet cool man.   That's your right.   Why it matters I don't "get" but do you have a counter point to my posts?  If so let's get this back on track.

Your argument is rubbish, sorry to say that.

Anyway the point was that you claimed this text, if it said in the copied text "I have to say..." for example you just left it that way which is plagiarism because it wasn't your "I". I didn't say the text itself was informative or irrelevant (except the parts you wrote they were misleading) or that you did a bad research in fact the research was good but next time don't claim the texts.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Sarpton on July 23, 2012, 04:47:33 am
Well I was going for expedience because, most people don't nit pick about copy paste stuff.  Also
(click to show/hide)

   And what parts are misleading?   

Besides friend I'm not writing a term paper for you, nor for a doctorate.  And frankly I think your just mad because of what I posted disagreed with what you posted.   And I will humor you with any references you'd like as to why your idea doesn't hold water.  In fact if you give me a time frame I can get more accurate if you like. 

Also when you say pike do you actually mean pike, or do you mean a partisan, volgue, what about a sarissa?   What time period are we talking about for the ?/shield?  There are many factors that honestly I didn't feel the need to get into to answer a simple question.   But if you want to treat this like some SUPER important paper rather than a friendly discussion I'm more than happy to do it.   Or would you , like me prefer to drop my "plagerism" and move on with the friendly debate?

But if you need to win HEY EVERYONE, I COPY PASTED SOME STUFF IN THIS THREAD.   Now can we go back to being adults and have a civil debate about what is in essence a make belive battle?


Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Penitent on July 23, 2012, 04:35:28 pm
excellent post!  I've learned a lot.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 23, 2012, 05:37:06 pm
(click to show/hide)

You won't get it. You're even exposing yourself by pointing to links that define what you did wrong. And you did not paraphrase or metaphrase the original text you simply copied it word by word, do you know that or why did you post them?

I have no problem if you point to interesting stuff that will help us in the discussion about pikes and phalanx but I have a problem if you steal the text from other people and claim it under your name by not qouting it and not changing the personal pronouns, that's all.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Penitent on July 23, 2012, 05:40:28 pm
well I, for one, knew this was copied/pasted from another work. 
It is polite practice to cite your source though, very true.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 23, 2012, 05:44:42 pm
well I, for one, knew this was copied/pasted from another work. 
It is polite practice to cite your source though, very true.

Some people didn't know it on first look, I only recongnized it when I saw weird numbers in [] brackets that simply do not fit and started searching for some parts of his text.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Zerran on July 29, 2012, 05:19:59 pm
So... back to the original topic.

The reason the phalanx/pikeman formation was "lost", if I remember correctly, was due to the fact that in order to perform one properly you need very disciplined full time soldiers that had trained rigorously together. In the period from the fall of the Roman Empire to the Late Medieval Era most militaries were comprised of militias and part-time soldiers. Generally during this period one would only become a soldier either because they were drafted or in order to gain lands, not to do it as a full time thing. Because of this, it just wasn't viable to use "hard" formations (by which I mean rigorous, where if part of it breaks, the whole thing shatters) such as a pike wall.

A Pikeman without a formation is basically just a lightly armored footman with only a sword. As such, it was more effective for them to use soldiers that could hold their own even without a tight formation.

Now admittedly this is all off the top of my head from a European History class I took a few years back.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 07, 2012, 08:25:25 pm
From what I've read the phalanx formation was vulnerable to being flanked or hit from behind.  It was a very "forward" oriented fighting formation.  If it had cavalry or some other lighter/more mobile infantry on the flanks it was less vulnerable. 

Spear and shield classes of fighters were still very common up through the end of the middle ages, just not necessarily in the phalanx formation.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Prinz_Karl on August 08, 2012, 06:49:30 pm
That's is definitively one of the reason the phalanx of hoplites in the Thermopylae was so succesful. In a frontal attack on them they could be devestating.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 18, 2012, 03:12:55 pm
Phalanxes whe also used as a manner of pinning the enemy down, whilst cavalry broke through their flanks.

But i think Crazy already poined that way.  :)
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Lange on September 18, 2012, 06:28:01 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


EDIT: That was harsh. And it's not even the second page (though only because this forum is abandoned.) I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Weewum on September 19, 2012, 01:35:15 am
Downblock
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Peasant Warrior on October 13, 2012, 05:41:05 pm
Cavalry suddenly became the dominant force on the battlefield, so there needed to be a quick, cost effective way of countering them, without years of training. Phalanxes would not have been much use against the catapults and heavy infantry of the Romans, and once they were wiped out, spearmen became that much more useful.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Thucydides on November 06, 2012, 02:44:29 am
Cavalry suddenly became the dominant force on the battlefield, so there needed to be a quick, cost effective way of countering them, without years of training. Phalanxes would not have been much use against the catapults and heavy infantry of the Romans, and once they were wiped out, spearmen became that much more useful.

Not True. Though the consensus is that Roman infantry was superior to the Phalanx one on one, Accounts of confrontations between the two shows a prolonged stalemate between the two until the Romans forced the pikes over uneven ground or if they ambushed the phalanx before they were set up. The Phalanx were intended to be a complementary force that pinned the enemy so that Heavy Cavalry would crushed the flanks and rear of the enemy formation. The Macedonian Phalanx only became the main force of destruction due to the wars between successors of Alexander, where Phalanx pushes determined the battlefield rather than cavalry, as well as  their relative cheapness compared to maintaining a retinue of Companions.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Thucydides on November 06, 2012, 02:49:53 am
From what I've read the phalanx formation was vulnerable to being flanked or hit from behind.  It was a very "forward" oriented fighting formation.  If it had cavalry or some other lighter/more mobile infantry on the flanks it was less vulnerable. 

Spear and shield classes of fighters were still very common up through the end of the middle ages, just not necessarily in the phalanx formation.

Mostly true, with the exception of the Argyraspides, where during the Battle of Gabiene they proved that a well trained and high morale group of Phalanges can form  a battle square that prevents them from being outflanked.

Quote
While Eumenes' camp was being plundered and his left flank dissolving into rout, the Argyraspides advanced on Antigonus' phalangites. Completely smashing them, the Argyraspides routed Antigonus' entire phalanx killing five thousand men without a single loss. Eumenes ordered Peucestas to go back into combat with his cavalry and pursue the advantage, but the latter refused to move. Seeing this, Antigonus then ordered his light horse under Peithon, just finished plundering Eumenes' camp to attack the Argyraspides in their rear. However, the Argyraspides were not ordinary soldiers, instead of panicking and fleeing, they calmly formed a large square and safely marched off the field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gabiene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gabiene)
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Oberyn on November 06, 2012, 02:01:19 pm
Those guys were veterans of all of Alexander's campaigns though, like the wiki page says they weren't "ordinary" soldiers. They were fighting against brand new levies from Macedon that had almost never seen battle, certainly not the ammount that they had.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: Thucydides on November 30, 2012, 11:38:14 am
Those guys were veterans of all of Alexander's campaigns though, like the wiki page says they weren't "ordinary" soldiers. They were fighting against brand new levies from Macedon that had almost never seen battle, certainly not the ammount that they had.

which is why i said it was " mostly true". the limitation of the phalanx wasn't the formation itself, but the training of it's soldiers. This applies to all troop formations, but the phalanx was especially vulnerable to poorly trained troops. The levy nature of the later successor phalanx is what, IMO, led to the conception that the phalanx canntot meet attacks on it's flank and rear. With adequate training, a square could be formed to meet flanking pressure until they are reinforced.
Title: Re: Pikemen and the Phalanx
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 02, 2012, 02:27:58 pm
roman fighting style was completely different from phalanx:

they used their throwing spears to throw at the enemy but than they took their sword and used it to fight while behind the cover of their shield.
the romans made formations so when a guy on the front line fell, the person behind him could jump in and continue the fighting. their fighting style consisted out of staying low in the cover of your shield and hacking towards the enemies feet/body.
also, the front line and the last line of their formations were always the veteran fighters who werent scared to charge into the enemy and the backline could make sure the newbies didnt run away.