cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Shieldoom on July 07, 2012, 12:15:10 pm
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Noone notices that this archers are kind of too strong?
I know there has been a lot of arguing on the matter, but right now archers need nerfs... again...
Making them slower is needed for sure, because running for minutes after an archer is killing the game for me.
+ to that archers are not only fast, they deal literaly tons of damage.
This is not balanced.
And point blank kills should be removed somehow... this is just stupid.
Some might say "cav kills archers", but the thing is... cav doesn't want to go kill archers, because they are afraid for their horse to be ravished.
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Do you use a shield like your nick implies?
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In order for archers to deal any significant damage, they have to be very innacurate and limited.
Playing archery for a gen or two should be a pre-requisite to starting threads like this.
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If Archers arent allowed to 1hit anymore (which they mostly only do if they do a headshot or shoot a peasant), then other classes shouldnt do that either. Archer's damage is already too low in comparison to other classes (take not loomed equip and not a 30+ build). A 2h easily 2hits anyone else, even 3hits a plate guy. An Archer with bodkins needs some more shots.
In order to stop kiting, you need to limit the archer's ath cap or better saying ath cap in general, who needs more than 6 ATH anyway? But give Archers some melee skills instead. Not sure if I liked that idea myself, I am actually pretty much satisfied with the Archer currently as I roll a hybrid build anyway.
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well Most archers I see are pretty painfull :( dunno.
Just remembered another thing- archer balance.
Is it posible to make the amount of archers in both teams even? or close to even? Because facing a team with 5 archers on 15v15 is sad.
I'd better fight an archer who can kill me in melee then run after a weakling with a pickaxe who does some cod 360 shots which look dumb imo.
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Balance is related to banners (and possible high kills) and not to classes though.
If 1 team has many archers the other one usually has more infantry so its often pretty even unless it is a camping map.
If Archers are pretty painful they probably have a MW Bow and MW Arrows therefore they do decent damage.
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A 2h easily 2hits anyone else, even 3hits a plate guy. An Archer with bodkins needs some more shots.
That is true, but how many strikes of that 2h were blocked ?
Much, much more than the number of arrows that were shot to kill the same guy, even counting those that happen to miss their target.
Anyway, that isn't really a problem, kiting is. And I think that is the consensus here.
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Yep, you're right Kafein. However that's what a shield is for, block arrows. There are always skill points a 2h can sacrifice for a shield. If you dont have one, dont complain (not talking to you directly though). Well... besides of that, kiting is of course a problem, and I'd be happy to get a solution for that.
Example:
Give Archers a cap of 6 Athletics, and give them some melee skills instead.
Cap of 6 ATH only if they have at least 24 AGI.
Cap of 5 ATH if they have 21 AGI.
Cap of 4 ATH if they have 18 AGI or less.
Therefore give them at least 2 IF and 2 PS instead.
2 IF and 2 PS as minimum when having 4 PD.
3 IF and 3 PS as minimum when having 5 PD.
4 IF and 4 PS as minimum when having 6 PD.
Of course they are free to put more points into IF/PS.
Give only 1 quiver to Archers but with far more arrows than now, so Archers can also use 1 slot weapons when having a 2 slot bow, and even a shield with a 1slot bow.
Note: This is not a direct suggestion but rather an idea.
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That is true, but how many strikes of that 2h were blocked ?
Much, much more than the number of arrows that were shot to kill the same guy, even counting those that happen to miss their target.
Depends. Arrows are easy to dodge unless you have low agi build. But dodging requires certain knowledge. Until few months ago, you could dodge just by fast turning and zigzagging. Right now it's best to stand still, wait for archer to release the arrow and make your move. That way you won't catch them but you won't get shot either.
Kiting is the problem as you said but kiting is pretty much the only way for archer to stay alive if he's facing someone who can dodge arrows. That's because their melee abilities are shit. Some of them don't even bother carrying melee weapon...
From my experience, I can survive up to 6 or 7 arrows if I'm standing still (or moving from arrows for negative speed bonus) and being on the same level with an archer. I'm talking about average archer, not guys like bagge with 180+ wpf in archery and MW equipment (bagge holds bow ready for some time to get bonus damage).
I can't survive more than 5 hits from average 2H warrior. Most of the time I can take 3 hits.
And amount of arrows I can dodge is higher than amount of hits I can block against those who are a lot better than me (so are the archers who's arrows I'm avoiding).
Those players, who don't play defensively and who are worse than me, can hardly block one or two of my hits. Maybe if they are really concentrated at defense. If they want to attack back they are screwed. And if I hit them, many times I'm able to combine held attacks in a way that every time they want to retaliate is the moment I strike and hit them. That works only against worse players than myself.
So, I wouldn't agree that it's easier to block attacks than to dodge arrows at medium distances (bolts are different story). Speaking from experience.
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some archers are imposible to dodge when you come close to them it is just pure luck you're able to dodge the arrow, and you won't catch them anyway.
In native archers can kill infantry with melee weapon while being slower.
And that's how, I think, it should be :\
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In native Archers only have a bit less good melee stats than the Infantry has, less wpf and less PS/IF. In crpg you have to create a build yourself and you can decide yourself if you want a better aim, more AGI to get more wpf and athletics or more dmg with PD or less Archery skill but melee skill with melee wpf and IF/PS. That system is quite good imo because everyone can decide for themselves what they like most.
Therefore I actually dislike to force people to not being able to choose what they want. Therefore I am not sure about my own suggestion in the post above, to limit ATH for Archers.
That is a really difficult question to limit certain skills for a certain class for balance reasons.
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Depends. Arrows are easy to dodge unless you have low agi build. But dodging requires certain knowledge. Until few months ago, you could dodge just by fast turning and zigzagging. Right now it's best to stand still, wait for archer to release the arrow and make your move. That way you won't catch them but you won't get shot either.
Kiting is the problem as you said but kiting is pretty much the only way for archer to stay alive if he's facing someone who can dodge arrows. That's because their melee abilities are shit. Some of them don't even bother carrying melee weapon...
From my experience, I can survive up to 6 or 7 arrows if I'm standing still (or moving from arrows for negative speed bonus) and being on the same level with an archer. I'm talking about average archer, not guys like bagge with 180+ wpf in archery and MW equipment (bagge holds bow ready for some time to get bonus damage).
I can't survive more than 5 hits from average 2H warrior. Most of the time I can take 3 hits.
And amount of arrows I can dodge is higher than amount of hits I can block against those who are a lot better than me (so are the archers who's arrows I'm avoiding).
Those players, who don't play defensively and who are worse than me, can hardly block one or two of my hits. Maybe if they are really concentrated at defense. If they want to attack back they are screwed. And if I hit them, many times I'm able to combine held attacks in a way that every time they want to retaliate is the moment I strike and hit them. That works only against worse players than myself.
So, I wouldn't agree that it's easier to block attacks than to dodge arrows at medium distances (bolts are different story). Speaking from experience.
Agreed.
Archery is probably the best class for killing low skilled players. If you are a good archer with a relatively accurate and powerful (talking about pure archer) build and you fight people who didnt learn to dodge accordingly yet you might get many kills that way, especially when baiting them while looking behind with the view outfit key.
People who know how to dodge however and have decent equip are not worth fighting because unless you get the headshot or they are already low at health they will catch up with you and destroy you in melee.
This talk about risk/reward, countering other classes applies for archery very well. As an archer I dont take the risk of getting in the danger zone to get kills, thats right. But it is my responsibility to connect all arrows I need with the guy who is chasing me down. If I cant he will get into melee range, where he has more damage, more attackspeed, more range and a fuckload of more survivability. It is the risk of chasing down archers that is too low IMO. Who would guess it is viable to run straight up a ranged class on an open field, where the archer is supposed to have the advantage because its his role to dominate under those circumstances. Yet this is nothing strange in crpg, so there is kiting.
I have to cope with the same dilemma everytime I retire. In my 12 gens of archery about 3 times I went hybrid. Even with my semi melee capabilities Im able to kill quite a large part of the playerbase with full melee builds and eq but therefore I have to abandon quite some ranged capabilities in terms of slots and most of all wpf. When I retire and go pure archer again I have to live with total scrubs killing me in melee because of my build and eq limitations.
Its a decision to make. People without shields should be devastated by archers, which is not even true to a full extend right now because dodging is relatively easy once you know how. Archers pay the same price when someone gets close but strangely you dont see 100 threads about this issue every week.
Kiting is silly, although vital for pure archers now I have agree. I dont agree with making their eq heavier or capping their ath though, because this would be a general nerf to mobility. If kiting shall be nerfed simply increasy the speed penalty when drawing a bow drasticly.
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Yep, you're right Kafein. However that's what a shield is for, block arrows. There are always skill points a 2h can sacrifice for a shield. If you dont have one, dont complain (not talking to you directly though).
The vast majority of 2h don't use shields not because they are lazy/proud 2h elitists. It's just not a good idea at all. Doing so cripples their speed. Iirc putting it on your back slows one down even more than in hand. Shield 2h also suffer the same problem as shielders : it doesn't really allow you to kill archers, and won't protect you against two (or more) decent archers. In the end they are better being faster and having an easier time dodging arrows (2h and polearms don't require a lot of PS to inflict damage and avoid glances, unlike 1h, so they are free to get more agi).
Depends. Arrows are easy to dodge unless you have low agi build. But dodging requires certain knowledge. Until few months ago, you could dodge just by fast turning and zigzagging. Right now it's best to stand still, wait for archer to release the arrow and make your move. That way you won't catch them but you won't get shot either.
Kiting is the problem as you said but kiting is pretty much the only way for archer to stay alive if he's facing someone who can dodge arrows. That's because their melee abilities are shit. Some of them don't even bother carrying melee weapon...
From my experience, I can survive up to 6 or 7 arrows if I'm standing still (or moving from arrows for negative speed bonus) and being on the same level with an archer. I'm talking about average archer, not guys like bagge with 180+ wpf in archery and MW equipment (bagge holds bow ready for some time to get bonus damage).
I can't survive more than 5 hits from average 2H warrior. Most of the time I can take 3 hits.
And amount of arrows I can dodge is higher than amount of hits I can block against those who are a lot better than me (so are the archers who's arrows I'm avoiding).
Those players, who don't play defensively and who are worse than me, can hardly block one or two of my hits. Maybe if they are really concentrated at defense. If they want to attack back they are screwed. And if I hit them, many times I'm able to combine held attacks in a way that every time they want to retaliate is the moment I strike and hit them. That works only against worse players than myself.
So, I wouldn't agree that it's easier to block attacks than to dodge arrows at medium distances (bolts are different story). Speaking from experience.
That is true, but your post hides the ugly truth. Bad players will be equally bad at dodging arrows and blocking, probably resulting in both the archer and the 2h being about as effective. However, a good player will always be much better at blocking than dodging, simply because there is very little room for improvement in dodging (the skill in this is on the archer's side). As a result, good players don't die in melee but die to arrows. That is an inherent weakness of directional combat, I'm afraid, and the reason ranged classes are nerfed over time and will continue to be.
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OOOOO, another nerf archery thread. how many is that in the past 2 months? like 5 or 6 right?
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If Archers arent allowed to 1hit anymore (which they mostly only do if they do a headshot or shoot a peasant), then other classes shouldnt do that either. Archer's damage is already too low in comparison to other classes (take not loomed equip and not a 30+ build). A 2h easily 2hits anyone else, even 3hits a plate guy. An Archer with bodkins needs some more shots.
In order to stop kiting, you need to limit the archer's ath cap or better saying ath cap in general, who needs more than 6 ATH anyway? But give Archers some melee skills instead. Not sure if I liked that idea myself, I am actually pretty much satisfied with the Archer currently as I roll a hybrid build anyway.
nerf your fuckn archers or remove them if you do that with ninja/samurai gear
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some archers are imposible to dodge when you come close to them it is just pure luck you're able to dodge the arrow, and you won't catch them anyway.
In native archers can kill infantry with melee weapon while being slower.
And that's how, I think, it should be :\
Well, yeah. They can't miss you from one meter distance. I wasn't talking about that.
Just in case you think I'm some my old friendcher lobbying here, I'm not.
Twohander with 18/24 build and 175 wpp in 2H here. Whole point of that build is hunting archers. And they still are easiest targets on the battlefield, most of them. When longbow was only pierce bow it was a lot easier catching archers. Now, horn bow builds are everywhere and they often have 8 ath like me...
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The vast majority of 2h don't use shields not because they are lazy/proud 2h elitists. It's just not a good idea at all. Doing so cripples their speed. Iirc putting it on your back slows one down even more than in hand. Shield 2h also suffer the same problem as shielders : it doesn't really allow you to kill archers, and won't protect you against two (or more) decent archers. In the end they are better being faster and having an easier time dodging arrows (2h and polearms don't require a lot of PS to inflict damage and avoid glances, unlike 1h, so they are free to get more agi).
Seriously and to be honest, if 1 player fights two other guys he is actually meant to die and there is nothing bad or unfair about that as they are 2 people and therefore have more chances to kill 1 guy. The 1 player can only kill both of them if he is better skilled than those 2 or if both of them do mistakes which causes their death.
The shield protects them from arrows, they can use the shield and sacrifice some speed at the same time. That is something you have to think about, either see the chance you get shot or sacrifice speed and save HP from some shots. A shield does not guarantee victory, neither distance for an Archer does.
People choosing a heavy STR build choose HP and DMG instead of speed, therefore they cannot chase a high AGI player. They chose to play like that, at the same time they could get a hybrid build like 18-21 and get more ATH to be able to chase other players. There is always an advantage and at the same disadvantage about builds people choose.
Also see Leshma's posts. Perfect example for being able to adapt to the current system (Archer's kiting).
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Archer is balanced atm. No need to be nerfing them again. Last time a nerf happened i could take over 30 arrows and the time after that when they where buffed i got 2 shotted in full plate.
So long story short being an Archer in game is balanced :o
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Well, Kafein is almost right about "good" players being good at blocking but bad at dodging. But truth is they aren't that good. They are great duelists, that's for sure. Most of those pro duelists can't win against lancer cavalry, suck at dodging arrows, aren't much of a battle players.
But they are still able to make serious impact on outcome because of their exceptional dueling skills.
That's why I'm pro hybrid. Best players are those who can play equally every class, players like Chase/Muffin/Gurnisson. Not some 2H hero Phyrex wannabe who recently bought Vaegir Warmask and Black Plates armor or most likely Kuyak...
Strong hybrids are the only way to show everyone how really good some players are. And those who are only skilled with 2H will be crushed, which is something they deserve.
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i think im the only archer who is not playing with athletics or with ps, whats wrong with me im just shooting?
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Dear Leshma, my old friendchers can have good melee and my old friendcher capabilities if they choose not to my old friend out and run, but, why would anyone choose to risk their lives when they could just run forever knowing no one will ever catch 'em, let me show you a fun little build.
Slichs
30
18/21
6PS
4ATH
6PD
7WM
WPF:
2h/1h/pole: 55
my old friendchery: 160
Now, here you can fight in melee slightly weaker than regular melee chars, but, would you do that when you could...
my old friendcher
30
15/24
5PD
8ATH
8WM
173 wpf
...Run forever?
Do so that PD lowers your effective ath if you have over 3 ath if possible, scaling so it lowers it very slightly at 4, as in, 4=3,75, then, at 5, 5=4, then at 6, 6=4,75, then at 7, 7=5,5, and so on, I personally do think bows need a damage buff, a tiny accuracy buff, and along with that accuracy buff they need an angle nerf so you gotta aim way higher for long range shots, along with the effective removal of kiting.
Also, if it's possible I'd like to see damage of an arrow being higher the further the target is from the shooter.
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The vast majority of 2h don't use shields not because they are lazy/proud 2h elitists. It's just not a good idea at all. Doing so cripples their speed. Iirc putting it on your back slows one down even more than in hand. Shield 2h also suffer the same problem as shielders : it doesn't really allow you to kill archers, and won't protect you against two (or more) decent archers. In the end they are better being faster and having an easier time dodging arrows (2h and polearms don't require a lot of PS to inflict damage and avoid glances, unlike 1h, so they are free to get more agi).
when you charge against two or more archers alone you shouldn`t have it easy to rape them...its the same with melee against 2 or more...still when you have the skills you can even win that.
even me can win against several noobs :D its funny everytime stupid 2h spammer noobs come against my archer when i shoot to backstab me and then run in fear when i draw my cute little pickaxe xD or most of the enemy team want to kill me and hit their teammates more than me :D
though i agreed that most of the time you are better of without shield as melee...i use a buckler or a elite cav shield(against archers) sometimes but most of the time i put away the shield against archers to dodge or against katanaspammers or other fast spammers because i would be too slow otherwise.
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Zlish, most kiters only run because they have no real melee build, so they're gonna die. Fighting is funnier than running, but you must have a decent survival chance or you might as well just take the hit to get it over with, as sometimes they do.
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Archery's been nerfed enough. I had to switch to another class just because it took 5 longbow shots to kill someone in mail. Pick on a class your own size, bub.
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yes im playing as a archer atm closing in on lvl 32 and its very hard man, just play it for 1 gen or even make a skip the fun char il lend you 20k and you play archer from the skip the fun and just see how difficult it is. Cav is my worst, worst, WORST enemy now its horrible and i get cav coming for me all the time, they are NOT afraid. but hey archery is fun brings a new look to cRPG when your first trying it out like me.
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Slichs
30
18/21
6PS
4ATH
6PD
7WM
WPF:
2h/1h/pole: 55
friendly archery: 160
That was my last build. 90% of the time the enemy just runs away trying to stay at the edge of his 2h blade after they notice that you can block and feint. Fuckin 2h kiting my old friends !
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I have no problem with archers atm...
Get a shield (even the weakest no requirementshield) and you can block arrows...
Im a dedicated shielder, one of the pro's of being shielder is that you wont die from ranged where all them lolstabbers will take damage. Nerf archers and you nerf shielders...
they dont do a lot of damage anyway... they are unrealisticly accurate though, so if you nerf them, nerf accuracy not damage. Medium-heavy body armor can take a few hits, which i dont think is op. + headshot should kill with normal head armor...
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From my experience, I can survive up to 6 or 7 arrows if I'm standing still (or moving from arrows for negative speed bonus) and being on the same level with an archer. I'm talking about average archer, not guys like bagge with 180+ wpf in archery and MW equipment (bagge holds bow ready for some time to get bonus damage).
Tsk, I've put some melee wpf so I'm not anywhere near that archery wpf 8-)
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Some might say "cav kills archers", but the thing is... cav doesn't want to go kill archers, because they are afraid for their horse to be ravished.
Bullshit.
Most cavs are patient and waits for an opportunity to backstab you, which means you are dead, sir.
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That was my last build. 90% of the time the enemy just runs away trying to stay at the edge of his 2h blade after they notice that you can block and feint. Fuckin 2h kiting my old friends !
Greatswords are gay, greatsworders are gay, btw: with 4 ath and some lightish armor they shouldn't be able to 100% backpedal you to death, and, jumping usually catches these motherfuckers off guard.
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People always whine about running archers, but seldom complain that the cav outruns them. Logic?
I would love a sligtly longer and higher dmg 0slot weapon(or all bows made 1slot), so that it is somewhat possible to fight some melee.
But if you give archers better meleecapabilities, you wont actually see them standing and fighting more. They will just be harder to kill once you close the gap.The bow is the archers weapon, and it works from a distance not close up.
If you feel so brave try ditching your weapon and fight the other meleeguys with your fists, comparable to fighting with a 0slot weapon.
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if devs rework shield bush, so archers cant move back and aim in shield and w8 when shielder try to attack and shot him, if this will be reworked = all would be fine.
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That was my last build. 90% of the time the enemy just runs away trying to stay at the edge of his 2h blade after they notice that you can block and feint. Fuckin 2h kiting my old friends !
Totally agree. The worst kiters are archers, but greatsword users are a close second.
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if devs rework shield bush, so archers cant move back and aim in shield and w8 when shielder try to attack and shot him, if this will be reworked = all would be fine.
lol no
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Depends. Arrows are easy to dodge unless you have low agi build. But dodging requires certain knowledge. Until few months ago, you could dodge just by fast turning and zigzagging. Right now it's best to stand still, wait for archer to release the arrow and make your move. That way you won't catch them but you won't get shot either.
An example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwyj93POkMA#t=43s aka ow ow yah!