Author Topic: Archers rework no?  (Read 2290 times)

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Offline Shieldoom

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Archers rework no?
« on: July 07, 2012, 12:15:10 pm »
-10

Offline Leshma

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 12:16:00 pm »
0
Do you use a shield like your nick implies?

Offline Adamar

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 12:24:42 pm »
+5
In order for archers to deal any significant damage, they have to be very innacurate and limited.
Playing archery for a gen or two should be a pre-requisite to starting threads like this.

Offline Miwiw

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 12:31:19 pm »
+2
If Archers arent allowed to 1hit anymore (which they mostly only do if they do a headshot or shoot a peasant), then other classes shouldnt do that either. Archer's damage is already too low in comparison to other classes (take not loomed equip and not a 30+ build). A 2h easily 2hits anyone else, even 3hits a plate guy. An Archer with bodkins needs some more shots.

In order to stop kiting, you need to limit the archer's ath cap or better saying ath cap in general, who needs more than 6 ATH anyway? But give Archers some melee skills instead. Not sure if I liked that idea myself, I am actually pretty much satisfied with the Archer currently as I roll a hybrid build anyway.
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Offline Shieldoom

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 01:53:52 pm »
+1
well Most archers I see are pretty painfull :( dunno.

Just remembered another thing- archer balance.
Is it posible to make the amount of archers in both teams even? or close to even? Because facing a team with 5 archers on 15v15 is sad.

I'd better fight an archer who can kill me in melee then run after a weakling with a pickaxe who does some cod 360 shots which look dumb imo.

Offline Miwiw

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 01:58:29 pm »
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Balance is related to banners (and possible high kills) and not to classes though.

If 1 team has many archers the other one usually has more infantry so its often pretty even unless it is a camping map.

If Archers are pretty painful they probably have a MW Bow and MW Arrows therefore they do decent damage.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 02:00:10 pm »
0
A 2h easily 2hits anyone else, even 3hits a plate guy. An Archer with bodkins needs some more shots.

That is true, but how many strikes of that 2h were blocked ?

Much, much more than the number of arrows that were shot to kill the same guy, even counting those that happen to miss their target.


Anyway, that isn't really a problem, kiting is. And I think that is the consensus here.

Offline Miwiw

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 02:03:22 pm »
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Yep, you're right Kafein. However that's what a shield is for, block arrows. There are always skill points a 2h can sacrifice for a shield. If you dont have one, dont complain (not talking to you directly though). Well... besides of that, kiting is of course a problem, and I'd be happy to get a solution for that.

Example:

Give Archers a cap of 6 Athletics, and give them some melee skills instead.

Cap of 6 ATH only if they have at least 24 AGI.
Cap of 5 ATH if they have 21 AGI.
Cap of 4 ATH if they have 18 AGI or less.

Therefore give them at least 2 IF and 2 PS instead.

2 IF and 2 PS as minimum when having 4 PD.
3 IF and 3 PS as minimum when having 5 PD.
4 IF and 4 PS as minimum when having 6 PD.
Of course they are free to put more points into IF/PS.

Give only 1 quiver to Archers but with far more arrows than now, so Archers can also use 1 slot weapons when having a 2 slot bow, and even a shield with a 1slot bow.

Note: This is not a direct suggestion but rather an idea.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 02:13:54 pm by Miwiw99 »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 02:16:13 pm »
+1
That is true, but how many strikes of that 2h were blocked ?

Much, much more than the number of arrows that were shot to kill the same guy, even counting those that happen to miss their target.

Depends. Arrows are easy to dodge unless you have low agi build. But dodging requires certain knowledge. Until few months ago, you could dodge just by fast turning and zigzagging. Right now it's best to stand still, wait for archer to release the arrow and make your move. That way you won't catch them but you won't get shot either.

Kiting is the problem as you said but kiting is pretty much the only way for archer to stay alive if he's facing someone who can dodge arrows. That's because their melee abilities are shit. Some of them don't even bother carrying melee weapon...

From my experience, I can survive up to 6 or 7 arrows if I'm standing still (or moving from arrows for negative speed bonus) and being on the same level with an archer. I'm talking about average archer, not guys like bagge with 180+ wpf in archery and MW equipment (bagge holds bow ready for some time to get bonus damage).

I can't survive more than 5 hits from average 2H warrior. Most of the time I can take 3 hits.

And amount of arrows I can dodge is higher than amount of hits I can block against those who are a lot better than me (so are the archers who's arrows I'm avoiding).

Those players, who don't play defensively and who are worse than me, can hardly block one or two of my hits. Maybe if they are really concentrated at defense. If they want to attack back they are screwed. And if I hit them, many times I'm able to combine held attacks in a way that every time they want to retaliate is the moment I strike and hit them. That works only against worse players than myself.

So, I wouldn't agree that it's easier to block attacks than to dodge arrows at medium distances (bolts are different story). Speaking from experience.

Offline Shieldoom

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 02:36:01 pm »
0
some archers are imposible to dodge when you come close to them it is just pure luck you're able to dodge the arrow, and you won't catch them anyway.
In native archers can kill infantry with melee weapon while being slower.
And that's how, I think, it should be :\

Offline Miwiw

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 02:41:36 pm »
+1
In native Archers only have a bit less good melee stats than the Infantry has, less wpf and less PS/IF. In crpg you have to create a build yourself and you can decide yourself if you want a better aim, more AGI to get more wpf and athletics or more dmg with PD or less Archery skill but melee skill with melee wpf and IF/PS. That system is quite good imo because everyone can decide for themselves what they like most.
Therefore I actually dislike to force people to not being able to choose what they want. Therefore I am not sure about my own suggestion in the post above, to limit ATH for Archers.

That is a really difficult question to limit certain skills for a certain class for balance reasons.

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Offline XyNox

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2012, 02:51:45 pm »
-1
Depends. Arrows are easy to dodge unless you have low agi build. But dodging requires certain knowledge. Until few months ago, you could dodge just by fast turning and zigzagging. Right now it's best to stand still, wait for archer to release the arrow and make your move. That way you won't catch them but you won't get shot either.

Kiting is the problem as you said but kiting is pretty much the only way for archer to stay alive if he's facing someone who can dodge arrows. That's because their melee abilities are shit. Some of them don't even bother carrying melee weapon...

From my experience, I can survive up to 6 or 7 arrows if I'm standing still (or moving from arrows for negative speed bonus) and being on the same level with an archer. I'm talking about average archer, not guys like bagge with 180+ wpf in archery and MW equipment (bagge holds bow ready for some time to get bonus damage).

I can't survive more than 5 hits from average 2H warrior. Most of the time I can take 3 hits.

And amount of arrows I can dodge is higher than amount of hits I can block against those who are a lot better than me (so are the archers who's arrows I'm avoiding).

Those players, who don't play defensively and who are worse than me, can hardly block one or two of my hits. Maybe if they are really concentrated at defense. If they want to attack back they are screwed. And if I hit them, many times I'm able to combine held attacks in a way that every time they want to retaliate is the moment I strike and hit them. That works only against worse players than myself.

So, I wouldn't agree that it's easier to block attacks than to dodge arrows at medium distances (bolts are different story). Speaking from experience.

Agreed.

Archery is probably the best class for killing low skilled players. If you are a good archer with a relatively accurate and powerful (talking about pure archer) build and you fight people who didnt learn to dodge accordingly yet you might get many kills that way, especially when baiting them while looking behind with the view outfit key.

People who know how to dodge however and have decent equip are not worth fighting because unless you get the headshot or they are already low at health they will catch up with you and destroy you in melee.

This talk about risk/reward, countering other classes applies for archery very well. As an archer I dont take the risk of getting in the danger zone to get kills, thats right. But it is my responsibility to connect all arrows I need with the guy who is chasing me down. If I cant he will get into melee range, where he has more damage, more attackspeed, more range and a fuckload of more survivability. It is the risk of chasing down archers that is too low IMO. Who would guess it is viable to run straight up a ranged class on an open field, where the archer is supposed to have the advantage because its his role to dominate under those circumstances. Yet this is nothing strange in crpg, so there is kiting.

I have to cope with the same dilemma everytime I retire. In my 12 gens of archery about 3 times I went hybrid. Even with my semi melee capabilities Im able to kill quite a large part of the playerbase with full melee builds and eq but therefore I have to abandon quite some ranged capabilities in terms of slots and most of all wpf. When I retire and go pure archer again I have to live with total scrubs killing me in melee because of my build and eq limitations.

Its a decision to make. People without shields should be devastated by archers, which is not even true to a full extend right now because dodging is relatively easy once you know how. Archers pay the same price when someone gets close but strangely you dont see 100 threads about this issue every week.

Kiting is silly, although vital for pure archers now I have agree. I dont agree with making their eq heavier or capping their ath though, because this would be a general nerf to mobility. If kiting shall be nerfed simply increasy the speed penalty when drawing a bow drasticly.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2012, 02:53:59 pm »
0
Yep, you're right Kafein. However that's what a shield is for, block arrows. There are always skill points a 2h can sacrifice for a shield. If you dont have one, dont complain (not talking to you directly though).

The vast majority of 2h don't use shields not because they are lazy/proud 2h elitists. It's just not a good idea at all. Doing so cripples their speed. Iirc putting it on your back slows one down even more than in hand. Shield 2h also suffer the same problem as shielders : it doesn't really allow you to kill archers, and won't protect you against two (or more) decent archers. In the end they are better being faster and having an easier time dodging arrows (2h and polearms don't require a lot of PS to inflict damage and avoid glances, unlike 1h, so they are free to get more agi).

Depends. Arrows are easy to dodge unless you have low agi build. But dodging requires certain knowledge. Until few months ago, you could dodge just by fast turning and zigzagging. Right now it's best to stand still, wait for archer to release the arrow and make your move. That way you won't catch them but you won't get shot either.

Kiting is the problem as you said but kiting is pretty much the only way for archer to stay alive if he's facing someone who can dodge arrows. That's because their melee abilities are shit. Some of them don't even bother carrying melee weapon...

From my experience, I can survive up to 6 or 7 arrows if I'm standing still (or moving from arrows for negative speed bonus) and being on the same level with an archer. I'm talking about average archer, not guys like bagge with 180+ wpf in archery and MW equipment (bagge holds bow ready for some time to get bonus damage).

I can't survive more than 5 hits from average 2H warrior. Most of the time I can take 3 hits.

And amount of arrows I can dodge is higher than amount of hits I can block against those who are a lot better than me (so are the archers who's arrows I'm avoiding).

Those players, who don't play defensively and who are worse than me, can hardly block one or two of my hits. Maybe if they are really concentrated at defense. If they want to attack back they are screwed. And if I hit them, many times I'm able to combine held attacks in a way that every time they want to retaliate is the moment I strike and hit them. That works only against worse players than myself.

So, I wouldn't agree that it's easier to block attacks than to dodge arrows at medium distances (bolts are different story). Speaking from experience.

That is true, but your post hides the ugly truth. Bad players will be equally bad at dodging arrows and blocking, probably resulting in both the archer and the 2h being about as effective. However, a good player will always be much better at blocking than dodging, simply because there is very little room for improvement in dodging (the skill in this is on the archer's side). As a result, good players don't die in melee but die to arrows. That is an inherent weakness of directional combat, I'm afraid, and the reason ranged classes are nerfed over time and will continue to be.

Offline Havoco

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2012, 02:54:34 pm »
+2
OOOOO, another nerf archery thread. how many is that in the past 2 months? like 5 or 6 right?
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Offline Fuma Kotaro

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Re: Archers rework no?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2012, 03:01:06 pm »
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If Archers arent allowed to 1hit anymore (which they mostly only do if they do a headshot or shoot a peasant), then other classes shouldnt do that either. Archer's damage is already too low in comparison to other classes (take not loomed equip and not a 30+ build). A 2h easily 2hits anyone else, even 3hits a plate guy. An Archer with bodkins needs some more shots.

In order to stop kiting, you need to limit the archer's ath cap or better saying ath cap in general, who needs more than 6 ATH anyway? But give Archers some melee skills instead. Not sure if I liked that idea myself, I am actually pretty much satisfied with the Archer currently as I roll a hybrid build anyway.

nerf your fuckn archers or remove them if you do that with ninja/samurai gear
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