cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Ujio on June 30, 2012, 08:53:01 pm

Title: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on June 30, 2012, 08:53:01 pm
My suggestion is to remove the Hollywood ninja stuff, i.e the black Ninja robes/pyjamas and hooded masks, and just add some more Historical Japanese gear.

Like for example some more variation in armor.

Wouldn't require new stats, just different colors of armor to add some Variety, much like the the Transitional armor with surcoat, Corrazina armor, Coat of Plates and the variations of Plate armor.
As well as,  some new weapons like Japanese spears and Halberds.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Miwiw on June 30, 2012, 09:04:35 pm
If remove it, dont add other stuff for it.

besides there is NO good looking asian stuff anyway
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 02, 2012, 01:08:00 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

There are NO good looking asian stuff, everything should be White!
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Miwiw on July 02, 2012, 01:31:19 pm
There was no good looking asian gear until I saw the link to the chinese forums with that sub mod for the 1257AD mod. But well, cant imagine to visit chinese forums myself tho. Quite impossible. Wouldnt want Japanese stuff tho.

You wear a nice dress on that picture.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 02, 2012, 01:40:15 pm
Only hollywood ninja item I can think of are the snowflakes, which I'm fairly certain is not 100% accurate(Don't think they came in that shape).
Katana is accurate. Lamellar vests are accurate, though not japanese. Hooded masks have existed since people started making hoods. As is black boots and steppe armour, light leather, etc.

Ninjas just combine them to create a look, much like the people who play highlanders or romans.

I use white lamellar in snow maps very often. I sometimes use purple when I want to look like a purple ninja and I combine it with padded coif. The black lamellar is what we usually use because we do take a lot of inspiration from Hollywood ninjas. But if you remove it, I can think of quite a few Grey's and many other people who would be bummed. It's quite a popular armour. Only truly japanese armour in the game is the samurai stuff. The "ninja" stuff is mainly European
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 02, 2012, 01:56:01 pm
There was no good looking asian gear until I saw the link to the chinese forums with that sub mod for the 1257AD mod. But well, cant imagine to visit chinese forums myself tho. Quite impossible. Wouldnt want Japanese stuff tho.

You wear a nice dress on that picture.

Thanks, I'm surprised you can see it, with me holding the camera and all. By the way, nice hood. It's almost like the Ninja one we have ingame just now, but a bit more white

Only hollywood ninja item I can think of are the snowflakes, which I'm fairly certain is not 100% accurate(Don't think they came in that shape).
Katana is accurate. Lamellar vests are accurate, though not japanese. Hooded masks have existed since people started making hoods. As is black boots and steppe armour, light leather, etc.

Ninjas just combine them to create a look, much like the people who play highlanders or romans.

I use white lamellar in snow maps very often. I sometimes use purple when I want to look like a purple ninja and I combine it with padded coif. The black lamellar is what we usually use because we do take a lot of inspiration from Hollywood ninjas. But if you remove it, I can think of quite a few Grey's and many other people who would be bummed. It's quite a popular armour. Only truly japanese armour in the game is the samurai stuff. The "ninja" stuff is mainly European

Katana is historically accurate, lamellar vest is historically accurate, hooded masks are too, as well as boots.
But the concept of a Ninja wearing black attire and mask isn't historically accurate, and the concept of a Ninja running around on the battlefield certainly isn't Historically accurate.

Ninja would've most likely disguised themselves as either Farmers, Bushi, or Buddhist monks, so that they could blend in with their environment
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 02, 2012, 02:26:27 pm
Thanks, I'm surprised you can see it, with me holding the camera and all. By the way, nice hood. It's almost like the Ninja one we have ingame just now, but a bit more white

Katana is historically accurate, lamellar vest is historically accurate, hooded masks are too, as well as boots.
But the concept of a Ninja wearing black attire and mask isn't historically accurate, and the concept of a Ninja running around on the battlefield certainly isn't Historically accurate.

Okay, so what's the point of this thread? That the ninja clan isn't historically accurate? Or that ninjas should fight on the battlefield?

1. Ninjas are no less historically inaccurate as menstrual monsoon, hyrule, and practically every other clan apart from a select few.
2. You're against ninjas on the battlefield, but not staffmasters, swashbucklers, cavemen and assassins(black robe with dagger)?

You're really want to limit this mod to historically accurate sets of armour and playstyles? You might aswell remove armour parts altogether and just allow people to choose pre-defined armour sets. As much as I dislike people with samurai amour, european helmet, buckler and bow with scimitar, I would not make it impossible to do.

The whole point of this mod is to create a unique persistent character that you can call your own.

Ninja would've most likely disguised themselves as either Farmers, Bushi, or Buddhist monks, so that they could blend in with their environment

Well. As a ninja, I prefer to use my katana, but otherwise I'm dressed like your standard eastern footsoldier in Europe. The environment is a battlefield and I'm a lot more blended in than a farmer. I rarely wear the hood, and when I do it's to hide my face and stop people from recognizing me on the battlefield.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 02:29:56 pm
Ninja would've most likely disguised themselves ... so that they could blend in with their environment

Khorin, listen to the man, you should disguise yourself in Kuyak + Armet + Greatsword, to blend in with the environment.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 02, 2012, 02:30:56 pm
:D Not exactly, blend in with whatever is appropriate to the environment you are in

@I suppose what bothers me about having unrealistic Japanese gear, is that, people who want to play as realistic Japanese warriors get painted with the same brush as the anime type warriors.

Everytime someone mentions adding new Japanese gear or talks about anything other than European gear, they will get the usual insults, trolling, "weeabo!" and "There are NO good asian armor. Remove all things that aren't European!"

Plus I think it's stupid to have Ninja running around on the battlefield, but then I also think those other unrealistic Warrior types you mentioned running around on the battlefield are ridiculous as well, but they don't bother me quite as much, for the reason stated above.

Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 02, 2012, 02:33:00 pm
Essentially a kuyak and a greatsword, then.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 02, 2012, 02:44:11 pm
Well. As a ninja, I prefer to use my katana, but otherwise I'm dressed like your standard eastern footsoldier in Europe. The environment is a battlefield and I'm a lot more blended in than a farmer. I rarely wear the hood, and when I do it's to hide my face and stop people from recognizing me on the battlefield.

More blended in than a farmer, but not more blended in than a warrior class, and in the case of Buddhist monks- Sohei/Warrior monks
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 02:49:10 pm
More blended in than a farmer, but not more blended in than a warrior class

I agree, full plate and flamberge is the ultimate ninja wear.

Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 02, 2012, 02:53:33 pm
@I suppose what bothers me about having unrealistic Japanese gear, is that, people who want to play as realistic Japanese warriors get painted with the same brush as the anime type warriors.

Everytime someone mentions adding new Japanese gear or talks about anything other than European gear, they will get the usual insults, trolling, "weeabo!" and "There are NO good asian armor. Remove all things that aren't European!"
I know what you mean. The random weaboo insults are stupid, however I disagree that ninjas are in anyway "anime". I think ninjas are a lot less "weaboo" than the samurai. Ninjas are a clan roleplaying a 70s-ish idea of a ninja. We have practically little to no interest in japan apart from that a lot of 70s ninja movies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-5RgwbFsMs) came from there, but they were mainly from Hollywood. I'm a history geek, somewhat, so I'm interested in Japan for the same reason I'm interested in Persia and India. I'm the only ninja that I know for sure that has watched an anime series. I watched Cowboy Bebop because if you're a sci-fi geek like me you'd notice that there are literally no decent sci-fi shows on atm, so I resorted to the only sci-fi genre I had left. It was alright, although a little, how should I put it... "japanese".

Samurai are usually a lot more interested in the history of Japan specifically and generally a lot more into japanese stuff like anime and such. As you said, ninjas are hollywood, not japanese. I'd say that you seem a lot more weaboo than any ninja I know  :wink:

So in essence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4m4wbYc08k

Plus I think it's stupid to have Ninja running around on the battlefield, but then I also think those other unrealistic Warrior types you mentioned running around on the battlefield are ridiculous as well, but they don't bother me quite as much, for the reason stated above.

Yes, well. It just kind of shows your bias. Equal treatment 'n all that.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 02, 2012, 02:57:47 pm
I agree, full plate and flamberge is the ultimate ninja wear.

Wouldn't go that far, unless as a Ninja, you're surrounded by tincans. But I suppose if you're surrounded by tincans, you must already be doing a really good job of blending in

I don't think Ninja are automatically anime, they were real. But Ninja in black pyjamas are anime/inaccurate.

I really don't see how a Samurai wearing Japanese armor wielding spears, bows, halberds and Katana could be more anime than a guy with Ninja stars, in black pyjamas, and a mask on the battlefied, unless the Samurai is firing lightning bolts from his sword and fireballs from his arse

Ninja stars were not as lethal as films suggest. Unless landing in a vital point like the throat, a Ninja star would most likely leave a nasty wound. Which may only kill the inflicted person if they underestimated the wound and bled to death, or were so busy fighting, they didn't get medical attention. I highly doubt it they would be able to pierce heavy armor.

Ninja stars were used for assassination. They were most often used as a means to transport poison, by placing poison on the blades and then throwing at the desired target. A very effective means of assassination

As for the bias, It is the C-rpg community who is blatantly bias towards Far-eastern cultures. I am very much in favor of different cultures, especially Far-eastern culture. I understand fully that this mod is all about Variety and creating your own unique character.

I just think it would be nice to have more realistic Japanese gear, instead of all the unrealistic stuff, and for players of Japanese characters not to be treated like dirt in C-rpg
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 02, 2012, 03:01:30 pm
Accidental double Post DELETE this message
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 02, 2012, 03:09:02 pm
That's the problem.

You equate black clad ninjas with anime, when that cultural phenomenon was first popularized by western movie industry. You seem more interested in japanese historical accuracy and by extension more interested in Japan in general and therefore, from my point of view, you seem a lot more "weaboo" than any ninja I know.

It's not meant as an insult, I personally carry no grudge against weaboos, and you're probably not an actual weaboo. You're probably just someone interested in Japanese history.. It's just to point out that the ninja clan often has a different point of view than weaboos and weaboo haters.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 02, 2012, 03:20:05 pm
That's the problem.

You equate black clad ninjas with anime, when that cultural phenomenon was first popularized by western movie industry. You seem more interested in japanese historical accuracy and by extension more interested in Japan in general and therefore, from my point of view, you seem a lot more "weaboo" than any ninja I know.

Sorry, I may have been a bit too generic with my comment on black clad Ninja. What I mean is, black pyjama, mask wearing Ninja are unrealistic, be it from anime or western 70's movies, it doesn't really matter where they're from. But you're picking at hairs here, in order to avoid the point.

As for weeabo, being interested in Japan, doesn't make you a weeabo. Being obsessed with Japan to the point of extreme annoyance is what makes a weeabo. For example playing as a fake 70's Ninja movie/anime inspired,"black clad" Ninja on the battlefield, in a fairly realistic game/mod centered around medieval battles.

I actually wouldn't mind Ninja so much if they added some sort of assassination system.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 02, 2012, 03:33:07 pm
Yes, it's unrealistic, but this mod has never been particurarly interested in extreme historical accuracy which is why there are so many styles available, and it's also a reason why this mod has become so popular. Atleast this is my opinion.

If roleplaying American Ninja(which was one of my fav movies as a kid) is weaboo, then so be it  :)

But having someone nitpick about us not wearing proper japanese gear does from my point of view seem more weaboo than us not caring about what japanese people actually do.

We're getting offtopic, though. The point still stands that there are no ninja gear in the game. There are just combinations of armours that kinda looks like a ninja. Just like there are armours for cavemen, hoplites, highlanders, romans, assassins, chinese, zulu, etc.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:33:59 pm
in a fairly realistic game/mod centered around medieval battles

Why are you discussing other games/mods in the suggestion corner?
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Frell on July 02, 2012, 04:20:26 pm
We have enough wannabe samurai/ninja kids running around. Ill give chadz $300 to remove the black hood and katana for a week and see who doesn't QQ.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on July 02, 2012, 04:43:58 pm
http://www.kobudoverband-nrw.de/masters/nobuyuki.htm
sry for german D:

Ninjas were real!!!! First point
2. Why the fuck can't you leave the Ninjas Ninjas, they also let you Kuyak+Vaegir War Mask+ Greatsword spammers alone and this goes to all those other haters 2
3. We could add new accurate armors from Japan but not remove the current once

Spoiler for haters
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 03, 2012, 04:10:57 pm
Get rid of the mask, leave the Katana it's a perfectly real medieval weapon
By the way, QQ?

http://www.kobudoverband-nrw.de/masters/nobuyuki.htm
sry for german D:

Ninjas were real!!!! First point
2. Why the fuck can't you leave the Ninjas Ninjas, they also let you Kuyak+Vaegir War Mask+ Greatsword spammers alone and this goes to all those other haters 2
3. We could add new accurate armors from Japan but not remove the current once

Spoiler for haters
(click to show/hide)

I know Ninja were real, I don't have a problem with them being in C-rpg, I just would prefer some more realistic Ninja, than the Hollywood style.

But I'm afraid you're missing the point of my thread. It isn't to get rid of Ninja, it's to replace Hollywood Japanese gear with realistic Japanese gear.

Yes, it's unrealistic, but this mod has never been particurarly interested in extreme historical accuracy which is why there are so many styles available, and it's also a reason why this mod has become so popular. Atleast this is my opinion.

I agree you with you there. It's the Variety and versatility of this mod that makes it Great. It's all about being able to make you're own unique character.

But this mod has somewhat of basis in realism, going of the majority of gear ingame (I never said it was "extreme historical accuracy" just "fairly realistic")
But you've got to draw the line somewhere. I'm sure everyone would be ragin' if Power rangers were running around on the battlefield, or if they saw Gandalf charging towards them.

If roleplaying American Ninja(which was one of my fav movies as a kid) is weaboo, then so be it  :)

Yeah, I think it does, but I don't find people who want to play as Hollywood Ninja, half as annoying, as the people who bash and insult Japanese style warriors, regardless of whether they are a realistic Bushi or a black Ninja.

They do so without any discrimination. Their basic reason seems to be - I don't like Japan, Which just seems racist to be honest. Their dislike very rarely seems to be based on how it affects the game, just the fact that they hate a certain culture.

But I think it would be nice to have the Japanese play-style not automatically associated with fantasy. Have it taken seriously.
And for players of Japanese warrior types, not to be treated like crap.

And to be able to post ideas for new gear without, getting barrages of insults, trolling, cynicism and rage
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on July 03, 2012, 04:26:20 pm
Get rid of the mask, leave the Katana it's a perfectly real medieval weapon
By the way, QQ?

I know Ninja were real, I don't have a problem with them being in C-rpg, I just would prefer some more realistic Ninja, than the Hollywood style.

But I'm afraid you're missing the point of my thread. It isn't to get rid of Ninja, it's to replace Hollywood Japanese gear with realistic Japanese gear.

And you miss my point my point was that you don't replace the current once  but just add the new armors without replacing and removing anything
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 03, 2012, 09:30:04 pm
I completely agree that the random hate for Japan(especially Japan) is ridiculous. But that's just a current cultural phenomenon just as much as weaboo-ism.

On the other hand though, I think there are more pressing areas other than Japan that should be addressed aswell. Areas like India, for example, of which we have no gear from and China, which seems to be getting some attention right now. People in general seem to be more positive toward those areas aswell. Lot of Japanophobes are actually wanting the chinese stuff added, which is great! Now some Indian stuff and some more saracen stuff(from Panos thread) and maybe some even more exotic stuff and this mod will be truly interesting.

But, my point still stands. Ninjas, even though we're not historically accurate, we're actually dressed like what a 70s ninja would look like if he ever had to fight on a battlefield during the medieval era and have a uniform. We have the signature weapon, modified armour for battlefield needs and other tactics than the usual run off the mill knight zergling.

And ninjas are also extremely strict about keeping the style and I take great joy in occasionally roleplayin' an old grizzled ninja that's gone through countless battles. Atleast I did that a lot more before I became an admin, nowadays I keep it mainly in the forums. I really wish more people would take on a character and stick to it, however most people seem more interesting in the gaming aspects of cRPG, than the roleplaying aspects.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Dalfador on July 03, 2012, 09:41:33 pm
Armor requests without models = no add
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on July 03, 2012, 10:11:01 pm
Armor requests without models = no add

Create some
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Haboe on July 04, 2012, 12:05:40 am
Come with some models if you want ppl to take you serious at such requests.
Asking to add/ replace models without giving a model... Not likely to happen.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on July 04, 2012, 12:17:06 am
"Ninja" is made in hollywood
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 12:34:32 am
My reading comprehension must be failing me but it seems someone is arguing over the theme of a clan.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: bruce on July 04, 2012, 03:55:03 pm
My reading comprehension must be failing me but it seems someone is arguing over the theme of a clan.

Unlike kuyak + plate gauntlets + greatsword + great helm variant (armet being the silliest one I saw) people, ninjas don't make sense, apparently.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ujio on July 17, 2012, 07:51:07 pm
Sorry for the late reply.

I completely agree that the random hate for Japan(especially Japan) is ridiculous. But that's just a current cultural phenomenon just as much as weaboo-ism.

On the other hand though, I think there are more pressing areas other than Japan that should be addressed aswell. Areas like India, for example, of which we have no gear from and China, which seems to be getting some attention right now. People in general seem to be more positive toward those areas aswell. Lot of Japanophobes are actually wanting the chinese stuff added, which is great! Now some Indian stuff and some more saracen stuff(from beer thread) and maybe some even more exotic stuff and this mod will be truly interesting.

Totally agree there, it's nice to see Chinese and Saracen gear getting some attention. In fact any gear that isn't the usual European stuff makes a welcome change.

But, my point still stands. Ninjas, even though we're not historically accurate, we're actually dressed like what a 70s ninja would look like if he ever had to fight on a battlefield during the medieval era and have a uniform.

That's a pretty big "if"
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Korgoth on July 18, 2012, 02:16:22 am
Whats a hollywood Ninja? Have you ever seen a Ninja? How do you know they didnt dress all in black?

Anyways real Ninja players would disguise themselves in Farmers cloths and what not.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Bjord on July 18, 2012, 02:44:49 am
First of all: I have a hard time believing ninjas fought on battlefields, seeing as their very existence was something you didn't speak about(since Japs are bound by honour and whatnot and the very notion of "ninja" collides with this fact). Yet, warlords of feudal Japan would of course make use of their services more often than not but naturally again, not stuff you talked about.

So with all that said, remove the ninja hood. Ninjas can still pretend they're some generic japanese assassin and we get easier kills(well, if that's even possible seeing as they usually have extreme AGI builds).

Assassins can stay in the shadows and backstab in a different game, on the battlefield is where men belong.
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 18, 2012, 02:54:30 am
I dont get why you wanna replace anything, suggest adding new stuff
if you want and let the people use their style if they want so.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A change of Scene, a change of Style
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 18, 2012, 04:39:01 am
That's a pretty big "if"

Yeah, well. Watching 16th century knights fighting 14th century mongols and 11th century vikings fight 19th century Zulu and 13th century arabs fight 10 000 B.C. cavemen kinda desensetizes you to historical accuracy.

And frankly, the whole notion of making people conform to historical accuracy is a retarded notion, as it would disqualify at least three quarters of the player base and would really break the whole "make your own character" aspect of cRPG. The only difference to native would be levelling and the battlefield would look incredibly dull. Watching Leshma the Staffmistress fight RandomDude the HeavyKnight is fun. I always wondered about the people who look at cRPG and think "Oh look, a mod that has character customization and levelling! I think I'll go and make a Swadian Man-At-Arms or Sarranid Cavalryman!"

Or do people really like levelling that much?

But I guess you people are too caught up in your outrage about the colour of ones gear than having fun fighting him.