cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tydeus on June 27, 2012, 05:46:59 pm

Title: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Tydeus on June 27, 2012, 05:46:59 pm
Niuweidao
weapon length: 88
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 88
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 32 cut

Katana
weapon length: 95
weight: 1.2
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 95
thrust damage: 16 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut

This may seem like a completely stupid question to some of you, if it is then you probably don't belong here. Even when discounting shields, is the Niuweidao actually a better weapon in a 1v1, assuming highly skilled players? Are 1h animations good enough to make the Niuweidao a better weapon? How about when fighting multiple people? Certainly, if the niuweidao had more cut damage I would undoubtedly say that it is, in every reasonable situation, a better weapon.

Personally, I'm on the fence about it. 5 cut is hard for me to ignore.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Xant on June 27, 2012, 05:48:13 pm
Katana is better when fighting without a shield. Clearly so. More damage and a lot more length (2h animations)
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Zanze on June 27, 2012, 05:55:38 pm
Depends on how good you are at abusing the left swing to get head shots.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Tydeus on June 27, 2012, 05:57:53 pm
I guess I just don't think of ~20 range (discounting the useless thrust) as significant enough to matter, especially when considering that with swing range variance, the right swing for the Niuweidao could quite easily out range the katana.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 06:18:00 pm
Quote from: Zanze on June 27, 2012, 05:55:38 pm
Depends on how good you are at abusing the left swing to get head shots.

you mean moving your mouse left and clicking left mouse button?

edit: I would say the ability to use a shield puts the niuweidao over the top. Even with a few points, being able to block ranged and effectivly attack seems important. That goes double for the current state of NA_1 that is overrun with throwers (although a few points in shield skill isn't going to be great against heavy throwing axes)
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 27, 2012, 06:28:16 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 06:18:00 pm
you mean moving your mouse left and clicking left mouse button?

edit: I would say the ability to use a shield puts the niuweidao over the top. Even with a few points, being able to block ranged and effectivly attack seems important. That goes double for the current state of NA_1 that is overrun with throwers (although a few points in shield skill isn't going to be great against heavy throwing axes)
absorbing axes into the shield is better than thy face


GO niuwewaewiodao, it would scare me more. when i imagine fighting you.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 06:34:02 pm
Quote from: Marathon on June 27, 2012, 06:28:16 pm
absorbing axes into the shield is better than thy face


GO niuwewaewiodao, it would scare me more. when i imagine fighting you.

I agree, just sayin, your not going to be Neo_qc and have a shield with 10 axes and a couple throwing lances sticking out of it that still takes a couple axe hits to break (not many people can or want to be like neo in general though)

It is important to note that "better animations" is really dependent on who you are fighting. Many players (even those that are skilled) have problems seeing one hand swings+feints, especially from one so fast, but others find it easy to see, or default to blocking left and go from there.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Mustikki on June 27, 2012, 06:47:27 pm
Of course Katana is better than niuweidao.
Katana has 4 fighting direction with 2h animations where Niuweidao only 3 from 1h.

This might be outdated in some of, but mostly still right. Reach added by animations.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 06:50:35 pm
Quote from: Mustikki on June 27, 2012, 06:47:27 pm
Of course Katana is better than niuweidao.
Katana has 4 fighting direction with 2h animations where Niuweidao only 3 from 1h.

This might be outdated in some of, but mostly still right. Reach added by animations.
(click to show/hide)

Yeah the 16p poke puts the katana miles ahead  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Peasant_Woman on June 27, 2012, 07:06:47 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 06:50:35 pm
Yeah the 16p poke puts the katana miles ahead  :rolleyes:

The real joke is on MW katanas. 17p, 3 loompoints well spent.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: SixThumbs on June 27, 2012, 07:13:35 pm
I prefer the niuweidao over the katana because you can do that crazy, chinese, swing the weapon around you head feint.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6neXBwPIGoU
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Phew on June 27, 2012, 07:20:12 pm
1h can only hiltslash on left swing, and gets no reach bonus while doing so. 2h can hiltslash on either side swing, and gets a huge reach bonus while doing so. 1h right swing is a total joke in 1v1, as the delay is too long and it just glances anyway. 2h also gets the reach advantage on overhead, and any thrust is better than no thrust. That's ignoring the massive damage difference.

Katana by a mile.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 07:25:25 pm
Quote from: Phew on June 27, 2012, 07:20:12 pm
1h can only hiltslash on left swing, and gets no reach bonus while doing so. 2h can hiltslash on either side swing, and gets a huge reach bonus while doing so. 1h right swing is a total joke in 1v1, as the delay is too long and it just glances anyway. 2h also gets the reach advantage on overhead, and any thrust is better than no thrust. That's ignoring the massive damage difference.

Katana by a mile.

In a group fight the right swing isn't that great, but in 1v1 the right swing is very good.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Banok on June 27, 2012, 07:32:09 pm
Niuweidao is better, 1h animations are much better/harder to block. the stab on katana is actually a hinderance.


Quote from: Peasant_Woman on June 27, 2012, 07:06:47 pm
The real joke is on MW katanas. 17p, 3 loompoints well spent.

^

Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Teeth on June 27, 2012, 07:38:27 pm
Quote from: Peasant_Woman on June 27, 2012, 07:06:47 pm
The real joke is on MW katanas. 17p, 3 loompoints well spent.
What? Are you sure its not 18 like with the other weapons? +3 cut and +2 pierce?

Katana is obviously the better weapon, although the niuweidao when properly used can be nearly equal.

Quote from: Mustikki on June 27, 2012, 06:47:27 pm

(click to show/hide)
I don't believe this, 1h right swing is very long. I'd dare to outreach a katana with a niuweidao anyday.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: LordBerenger on June 27, 2012, 07:40:00 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on June 27, 2012, 07:38:27 pm
What? Are you sure its not 18 like with the other weapons? +3 cut and +2 pierce?

Katana is obviously the better weapon, although the niuweidao when properly used can be nearly equal.
I don't believe this, 1h right swing is very long. I'd dare to outreach a katana with a niuweidao anyday.

Your opinion is invalid since ur a former Ninja.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Tydeus on June 27, 2012, 07:44:14 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on June 27, 2012, 07:38:27 pm
I don't believe this, 1h right swing is very long. I'd dare to outreach a katana with a niuweidao anyday.
Those numbers put the 1h right swing at -1 range. But you have to keep in mind that the effective range of your swings is not exactly the same, every swing.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 08:01:19 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on June 27, 2012, 07:38:27 pm
What? Are you sure its not 18 like with the other weapons? +3 cut and +2 pierce?


apparently the katana doesn't recieve a +1 for the poke on the masterwork.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Miley on June 27, 2012, 08:54:12 pm
Katana is a good 2h, and Niuweidao is a good 1h? I don't get how you're supposed to compare the two.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Kato on June 27, 2012, 09:03:14 pm
I prefer(find easier) dueling top player with katana over top player with niuweidao anyday.
However for good kicker probably niuweidao isn't problem.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: ShinySpoons on June 27, 2012, 09:24:01 pm
I prefer the niuweidai. I tend to facehug and circle, in which case the shorter range compared to the Katana is a benefit.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Phew on June 27, 2012, 10:43:25 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on June 27, 2012, 07:25:25 pm
In a group fight the right swing isn't that great, but in 1v1 the right swing is very good.

We must be playing a different game. 1h right swing is for hitting people in the back while they are fighting someone else, or maybe as an opener to outreach someone (although thrust is a better option for this purpose if your weapon has it). The long delay coupled with tiny sweet spot makes 1h right swing a giant liability in 1v1.

Any competent player that sees you readying a 1h right swing just strafes slightly to their left and attacks, knowing that they just forced a glance. I use a +3 military hammer with 8 power strike, and it will glance on an archer if he is just slightly to my right. Every time I attempt a right swing against a competent hiltslashing 2h-er, I end up dead.

Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Wraist on June 27, 2012, 11:30:17 pm
Quote from: Phew on June 27, 2012, 10:43:25 pm
We must be playing a different game. 1h right swing is for hitting people in the back while they are fighting someone else, or maybe as an opener to outreach someone (although thrust is a better option for this purpose if your weapon has it). The long delay coupled with tiny sweet spot makes 1h right swing a giant liability in 1v1.

You and your hatred for the 1h right swing..., it used to be my most common 1h attack [when I didn't pretend to be a bee], and isn't as bad as you make it out to be.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: San on June 27, 2012, 11:43:36 pm
Right swing is good as an opener and for bait&punish moves. It's decent for helping you get inside, but it has limited use once actually inside unless you trick the opponent. It's good against other onehanders since you can do things like come in with a swing, move away while readying a right swing, then come back in. Not as good against 2h/pole unless you're fighting multiple opponents and can get them to be in each others' way.


As far as the OP is concerned, 88 length is more than good enough. The problem is the lack of cut damage. Katana is obviously better but you may get more utility with the Niuweidao and may be more comfortable with it if you are used to medium 1h reach instead of short 2h reach. If loomed, you might not even mind the damage since 32 cut is a good base for 1h.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: SeQuel on June 27, 2012, 11:51:10 pm
Niuweidao will always be the best 1hander in the game. That weapon was amazing and I fucked shit up with it when I was an archer. I miss my Niuweidao....
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: LordBerenger on June 28, 2012, 01:09:55 am
All i can think of when thinking about Niuweidao is that it's one of the FEW weapons i've killed people with whilst having 0 PS (When using as secondary for my archer).
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Bars on June 28, 2012, 03:08:24 am
both is good, but  it all depends on who hold weapon on the hand.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Tydeus on June 28, 2012, 07:25:09 am
Quote from: Miley on June 27, 2012, 08:54:12 pm
Katana is a good 2h, and Niuweidao is a good 1h? I don't get how you're supposed to compare the two.
The underlying question is this: Are 1h animations better than two hand animations when discounting thrusts (I know a lot of people think so) and if so, worth sacrificing 5 cut damage?

The 1h left swing is likely the best animation for landing hits in crpg (On a fastest speed server, I'd go with the 2h thrust animation). Two of the swings can be mistaken for each other due to angles and positioning. If the animations are good enough to net you one extra hit per three or four, then wouldn't that easily make up for the damage loss?

I haven't used a Katana or a MW Katana in ages. I'm not sure how difficult it is for people to block but personally, I don't know a single person that uses one that gives me a harder fight than some of the good 1hed players we have, even when they use "slower" weapons.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 28, 2012, 11:00:01 am
The right swing on the niueweidao outraches the katana on everything except thrust.
The values that guy posted ARE outdated, there is a thread somewhere with the current values somewhere someone found by testing, and 1h right swing adds more than you think..

I'm still saying to go with the nijuiweuwieuwiuidao, it has the best name, look, style, amazing stats, speed, awesome, animations and isn't a ninja weeabo anime weapon like the katana.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Banok on June 29, 2012, 05:33:53 am
Quote from: Marathon on June 28, 2012, 11:00:01 am
isn't a ninja weeabo anime weapon like the katana.

how is it not a weeabo weapon, its a chinese sword rather than japanese is all ;p
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Lt_Anders on June 29, 2012, 06:14:33 am
Quote from: Banok on June 29, 2012, 05:33:53 am
how is it not a weeabo weapon, its a chinese sword rather than japanese is all ;p

1.    weeabo       
A person who's totally obsessed with Japanese culture; Wapanese; Wanna be Japanese.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: dreadnok on June 29, 2012, 08:39:00 am
Hey tydeus, i like 1h over 2 even without shield. And that is an awesome weapond.  Those fast swords do monster damage when hit in the dome. Also no wonky stab
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Lannistark on June 29, 2012, 08:44:11 am
I've seen Darian use the Niuweidao and being quite deadly with it.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Huey Newton on June 29, 2012, 09:41:13 am
arent you a 1h/2h hybrid anyways tydeus?

Why not bring both
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Blackzilla on June 29, 2012, 11:26:54 pm
He is farfel,an archer.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Tydeus on June 30, 2012, 03:43:55 pm
Since they allowed you to transfer looms to and from alts, I ditched my super awesome 1h/2h/cav/shield/pole/zero IF/super-bad, build. Tydeus is 21/21 2h, Farfel is currently 1h/archer and soon to be either 1h + shield or 1h no shield, again.

I have been trying out the katana on Tydeus and truth be told, I feel like the Niuweidao is actually more effective. Maybe 20% of the Katana thrusts actually do more than just glance, so I really just can't consider it as any sort of an advantage. Against an armored opponent, it just doesn't do anything at all. I'd rather them just remove it in all honestly. At least then you could never accidentally thrust when you're too close to your opponent and end up stunning yourself.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Swaggart on June 30, 2012, 05:06:25 pm
I don't understand why the Niuweidao doesn't have a stab. You can certainly stab with that kind of a point, probably not effective but entirely possible. If the Katana can stab, so can the Niu. Balance I guess.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Smoothrich on June 30, 2012, 05:20:48 pm
I liked the Niuweidao a lot, after holding on to your +3 one for a little while when you were gone Tydeus, I noticed I could stomp in melee pretty bad even with barely any PS, when I was leveling a 1hand cav hybrid.  Later on I was doing a 15/24 agi shielder/polearm hybrid, and focusing on hunting archers and stuff for a change of pace from being a cav lance griefer or 2handed greatsword hero.

I found the Niuweidao to be one of the best damn 1handers in the game for sure, and I was able to abuse its high speed in ways I can never do with a longsword or katana, though to be fair I haven't really tried the katana too much, as a 2handed sword without a stab (might as well not have one) you lose too much utility imo.

With the Niuweidao, I was able to beat a ton of other melee, especially shielders and even decent ones, by abusing the ever living shit out of left swing circle strafing spam.  With high athletics, its really hard to have the presence of mind, footwork, and reaction time to effectively counter this kind of weapon while facehugging.  A quick overhead after blocking a big strong 2 hander is usually a free hit with that thing too.

I eventually traded it away though, because I found the reach too limiting in a lot of situations.  Namely, even with pretty low armor weight  and 8 athletics, I would be able to get at most 1 hit in on an archer before they accelerated out of my reach, which pissed me off to no end.  I probably would've had to switch to peasant clothes to be able to use it to hunt archers, but I like fighting in groups too and you just can't do that with cloth (because of team wounds of course).  Maybe if I worked on right swing abuse more I could've adapted too, but meh.  So I gave up and switched to elite scimitar for that gen :(

And I honestly think the elite scimitar is the stronger weapon, but the niuweidao is better for 1 vs 1s in melee.  I should've tried it with maxed weapon master, I bet then it becomes one hell of a joke.
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Ujio on June 30, 2012, 07:41:32 pm
DELETE
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Ujio on June 30, 2012, 07:55:34 pm
Quote from: Marathon on June 27, 2012, 06:28:16 pm
absorbing axes into the shield is better than thy face

Avoiding the axe all together, is better than thy shield :D

Quote from: Lt_Anders on June 29, 2012, 06:14:33 am
1.    weeabo       
A person who's totally obsessed with weaboo culture; Wapanese; Wanna be weaboo.

I'd like to add
1. weeabo
A person who's totally obsessed with weaboo culture, to the point where it gets extremely annoying.

Just because something's weaboo doesn't automatically make it weeabo. The Katana is only a weeabo weapon in the hands of the Ninja clans running around in their black pyjamas with their ninja stars.

On a side note
1. C-rpg forums
A hideout for anti-J.a.p.a.n.e.s.e. extremists
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: Lannistark on July 16, 2012, 09:24:18 pm
Niuweidao.

/thread
Title: Re: Niuweidao vs. Katana
Post by: duurrr on July 16, 2012, 11:51:39 pm
ive never considered the niuweidao o.O

that being said if youre not going to use a shield id still go for the katana, its just that much more easier to kill bads faster with in battle, the faster you kill the more you survive

if youre going to sit on the duel server and avoid cavrpg battle id go for the niuwesadasdfsdfgsfdao thou