cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Bobthehero on June 23, 2012, 09:09:21 am
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I mean
You lose wpf, so your swing slower and move slower due to weight B UT losing wpf also mneans you hiy like a fucling paraplegic old lady since wpg also guve more damage, and that's not even count the upkeep.
So apart for being osme moron (like bobthehero, but I am totally Not_Bobthehero_Whals, so I am bot bobthehero, right?... righ!, why do you use it, feels like extra armor does not output all the negatives)
Anyways, stupid cRPG developpers, l2balance,.
Edit: why is the berer bottle empty? Alsi I am 8-3 with my archer alt and drunk out of my mind, NA sucks, guff NA!
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Hmm, when i fight against tincans, they still swing their weapons really quick.
Sure on even grund i can run a bit faster, but during the dogfight this makes no difference, except i takes me one to three hits to kill someone in light armour and three to five hits against someone with a heavier one.
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Hmm, when i fight against tincans, they still swing their weapons really quick.
Sure on even grund i can run a bit faster, but during the dogfight this makes no difference, except i takes me one to three hits to kill someone in light armour and three to five hits against someone with a heavier one.
Your nail cleaner knife shouldn't even be able to scratch tin cans Mala.
There is only one reason to wear plate: if you like the appearance.
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I mean
You lose wpf, so your swing slower and move slower due to weight B UT losing wpf also mneans you hiy like a fucling paraplegic old lady since wpg also guve more damage, and that's not even count the upkeep.
So apart for being osme moron (like bobthehero, but I am totally Not_Bobthehero_Whals, so I am bot bobthehero, right?... righ!, why do you use it, feels like extra armor does not output all the negatives)
Anyways, stupid cRPG developpers, l2balance,.
Edit: why is the berer bottle empty? Alsi I am 8-3 with my archer alt and drunk out of my mind, NA sucks, guff NA!
You shouldnt post here when you're drunk, mate! :mrgreen:
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Although the OP was drunk at the time, his point still stands.
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Your nail cleaner knife shouldn't even be able to scratch tin cans Mala.
There is only one reason to wear plate: if you like the appearance.
Yes, the inflicted cut damage is a bit unrealistic for heavy armour and sure discussible, but this is not the topic.
Heavy armour keeps you alive a lot longer in reality and in game.
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Realistically, everyone given the option would want to wear heavy armour. But a mod with everyone with milanese would be boring, and a mod spanning 500 years of weapon development with realistically-modeled gear, well.
So we have watered-down armour; the only other "balanced" option would be to remove "late" gear such as plate and restrict yourself up to coat of plates (which was still damn effective protection) and then model armour with some realism (and even then, coat of plates would be a bit too good). Else it'd be platewars.
Btw, the big difference between armour and no armour is the amount of damage horses charging do, with 50+ armour rating unless it's a very heavy horse it's not that bad, unarmoured people get hurt a lot by good horses. There's also the difference in survivability vs ranged to some extent.
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I fully disagree. Armor does not have enough disadvantages. Everytime I switch to heavier armor, my performance increases. I see no reason at all to wear light armor, thinking about going heavier than my current brigandine, cause there is barely a reason not to.
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I fully disagree. Armor does not have enough disadvantages. Everytime I switch to heavier armor, my performance increases. I see no reason at all to wear light armor, thinking about going heavier than my current brigandine, cause there is barely a reason not to.
^. I hit a guy 5 times with a bec, I glanced my last swing and was oneshot in medium. I hit the same guy 9 times with a langes, and then glanced 3 times in a row, only to be two shot [polestagger].
The guy only blocked two attacks all together :|
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I fully disagree. Armor does not have enough disadvantages. Everytime I switch to heavier armor, my performance increases. I see no reason at all to wear light armor, thinking about going heavier than my current brigandine, cause there is barely a reason not to.
I will also be agreeing with this. Heavy armor makes you take that many more hits and the myth that it makes you slower only barely applies.
The WPF reduction doesn't matter outside of being a ranged, for weapon speed, it's so god damned minimal, the difference between 0 and 200 wpf is only like a few milliseconds so it's not that ~60 wpf lost from heavy armor that will make you lose swing speed which is consequently also why outside of being a hybrid or ranged, WM is pointless to level up to maximum.
Armor if anything in this game doesn't slow you enough, second, strenght reduces the weight penalty on speed, making strenght builds actually faster than agility builds unless said agility builds only wear very light to light armor (Anything under mail really.), I'd be happy with a huge armor weight increase across the board to actually reflect that armor is heavy, even if this game leads us to believe that it's not.
Now now, I know what some people here will think, they'll probably come to me with HURR DURR BUT PLATED GUYS CAN DO CARTWHEELS.
Stop. Fucking. Kidding. Yourself. I know that most of you guys might not quite be in the physical shape to do that kind of shit because you're too busy wasting away at video games but Cart Wheels are the easiest shit, I remember the very first time I did a cart wheel, I was 15 in PE class, was weighting 265 pounds at that point, was a big fat slob of shit that could barely run and I still pulled off a perfect cartwheel on my very first time.
I would be impressed if people wearing full plate could start fuckin' jamming and breakdancing to some medieval hip hop but that's not the case.
Not because you can do a cartwheel that you can run faster, how agile you are has absolutely nothing to do with running speed, I don't care how much training a god damned special force guy in the army that regularly run around with 80 pound of equipment has received, I'll still outrun his shit with only regular cardio training and football drills.
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carmoRPG is alive and well man. Disagree completely and think if anything it's far too effective, as Teeh, Wraits, and Vkv talk about. The benefits of heavy and even just "medium" armor are huge, even more so when you add heirloom bonuses. My opinion is that you should pay for mistakes pretty dearly, rarely if ever surviving more than 3 good hits.
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IF that's the case, then remove the high upkeep and any penalties related to wearing the armor.
quote author=Vkvkvk link=topic=34625.msg522566#msg522566 date=1340508265]
snip
[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4
The stenght reduce weight penalty hasn't been proved.
I do feel the loss of WPF in armor, I feel clumsy as hell, and my score isn't really increased when I wear the thing.
Sorry but heavy armor isn't worth it. There's a reason kuyak are the shit right now.
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Defend against teammates.
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IF that's the case, then remove the high upkeep and any penalties related to wearing the armor.
quote author=Vkvkvk link=topic=34625.msg522566#msg522566 date=1340508265]
snip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4
The stenght reduce weight penalty hasn't been proved.
I do feel the loss of WPF in armor, I feel clumsy as hell, and my score isn't really increased when I wear the thing.
Sorry but heavy armor isn't worth it. There's a reason kuyak are the shit right now.
Too fucking bad Kuyaks are heavy armors.
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lolno
They're 44 body armor, 10 leg armor, nowhere near heavy.
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lolno
They're 44 body armor, 10 leg armor, nowhere near heavy.
Sure, if you're so god damned entitled to your own opinions, 44 body armor is pretty much low-heavy tier for armors.
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Uh... no?
That's a few (4-5) more armor than most of the mail armor and it doesn't even weight 15 pounds, no, high tier medium at best, not heavy.
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Yeah, people seem to think of different things when talking about heavy armor. Fact is, full plate is only worn by people who like the look. There is NO build that is more effective in full plate armor than in a Kuyak clone set.
And the 5 bec hits story is hilarious. I get two hitted in fully loomed Milanese plate sometimes by bec, and the fourth hit ALWAYS kills me. I don't think it's possible to eat 5 bec hits and still walk.
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Like its been said before only wear plate armor if for looks anything else is just gimping your own performance.
Ever since paul´s soak value changes plate armor have been totally rubbish :lol:
Its a money sink for people who wants too roleplay knights.
EDIT: forgot to say that it does wonders against team hits tho.. its the only area where it shines
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If you're bad at the game you can buy a full plate set, a great maul and roll a strength build to improve your performance drastically.
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44 body armor is pretty high. Considering that the top tier of body armor (without heirlooms) for a single piece (no gloves) is 56, that's almost at the top. Lower high-tier.
Low 0-20
Medium 20-40
High 40+
The game is way too forgiving in terms of armor and taking hits as it is- you should never get to rely on armor for free hits against you, bottom line. Add on the absurd bonus we can get from strength; not only do you get the ability to use stronger weapons, you get a skill that makes you hit harder with them, as well as the ability to wear heavier armor (and have it effect your movement less and less the more strength you have) and obtain more health. Survivability and lethality should not be so intertwined into one stat, it's borked.
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(and have it effect your movement less and less the more strength you have)
Where does that come from?
IS there someone else than heavy armor detractors that can confirm that?
Edit: Also:you should never get to rely on armor for free hits against you, bottom line.
What's the point of heavy armor then?
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Where does that come from?
This came from the tooltip that you got when hovering over the Strength attribute on the character page, as this dude mentions in the Game Mechanic Mega-thread or whatever:
According to the new website strength reduces movement speed penalty associated with item weight. Is that true? Do I run faster in heavy armors when I have more strength?
However... I just checked the website, and the tool-tip no longer shows up, so I'm not sure if that's actually true. We'd need a developer to confirm/deny.
I'd say the point of heavy armor is aesthetics based on the bottom line I put forward. Just like the light armors! Though unlike my Reinforced Ragged Outfit (very lucky to take two hits), I can see a few free hits coming from heavier pieces (three-five melee hits to kill) but anything beyond that with the 6 or 7 PS of a balanced build is bordering on absurdity IMO.
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I'd say the point of heavy armor is aesthetics based on the bottom line I put forward.
Why don't we just give ALL armors the same stats then? I assure you after that what once were heavy armors can then be deleted from the game after becoming totally useless.
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Why don't we just give ALL armors the same stats then? I assure you after that what once were heavy armors can then be deleted from the game after becoming totally useless.
If all armors have the same stats, why would heavy armors be any more useless then light armors? It'd be an entirely aesthetic based choice, as the "heavy" armors would no longer actually be heavy in the weight sense or the protection sense.
But anyhow, I think 3-5 hits is plenty of survivability, and a good place for "heavy" armors to be at on average, with medium being 2-4, and light being 1-2 hits on average.
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If all armors have the same stats, why would heavy armors be any more useless then light armors? It'd be an entirely aesthetic based choice, as the "heavy" armors would no longer actually be heavy in the weight sense or the protection sense.
Sure let's give everything the same stats. I suggest 0 weight 7 armor. Would totally not be ridiculous at all.
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unlike my Reinforced Ragged Outfit (very lucky to take two hits), I can see a few free hits coming from heavier pieces (three-five melee hits to kill
Suprised :?: you wear a piece of cloth it shouldn't even take more then 1 hit to knock u off.
Anyways the problem we talking about is that wearing anything above loomed kuyak an a set of loomed gloves is pointless since the amount of hits u can take from that point on is roughly the same...
I dunno tbh if we should buff heavy armor but atm its pointless to use it besides looks.
Medium armor have all the def u need plus you are fast and agile
Heavy armor same def as the medium armor but you get slowed down plus you have to pay a silly extra amount of upkeep just for looks since it hardly improves your def.
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Sure let's give everything the same stats. I suggest 0 weight 7 armor. Would totally not be ridiculous at all.
To be clear, I'm not seriously entertaining this notion, but if I were, I'd say this is an okay idea, really- as long as damage values are balanced along with it, of course. It wouldn't make sense to have powerstrike, draw, and so on be as high as they are now if such a change to armor were to take place.
I just think armor as it stands offers entirely too much protection, especially with high Strength builds which have both survivability and lethality at the expense of some mobility. The problem of armor offering too much protection is also only exacerbated when you add heirlooms of body and glove armor into the mix. The amount of handicaps we are afforded by armor needs to be toned down; we deserve to pay dearly for our mistakes, but again this is just my opinion on the matter. Why should we wear heavy armor? We shouldn't!
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To be clear, I'm not seriously entertaining this notion, but if I were, I'd say this is an okay idea, really- as long as damage values are balanced along with it, of course. It wouldn't make sense to have powerstrike, draw, and so on be as high as they are now if such a change to armor were to take place.
I just think armor as it stands offers entirely too much protection, especially with high Strength builds which have both survivability and lethality at the expense of some mobility. The problem of armor offering too much protection is also only exacerbated when you add heirlooms of body and glove armor into the mix. The amount of handicaps we are afforded by armor needs to be toned down; we deserve to pay dearly for our mistakes, but again this is just my opinion on the matter. Why should we wear heavy armor? We shouldn't!
All armors should be reduced to 0 armor (just for looks). Then all weaps nerfed after people get tired of dying in 1 hit all the time. Then give all weaps 0 damage (just for looks) then give punches 900 damage. End
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Movement of lightly armoured high agi people is beyond silly. They are protected enough as is, even lightly armoured people wearing rags will never be oneshot in normal conditions by an arbalest bolt or longbow archer, or a throwing whatsit unless it's a lance.
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Suprised :?: you wear a piece of cloth it shouldn't even take more then 1 hit to knock u off.
...
actually it is a piece of cloth over a leather armour.
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Plate armor just isn't what it used to be. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Well, I just once again learned on Siege that head armor as strong as 10 is enough to survive a hit on the head with 8 PS and Longsword. :shock:
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actually it is a piece of cloth over a leather armour.
Yeah, and when you drop it from great height, it is undamaged, while the plate armor will be dented, so clearly ragged outfit should be better than plate armor.
I can live with plate armor being equal to any other armor, if it's also equal in cost. I am tired of paying high upkeep without noticeable gain. Being three hitted by a weapon that IRL couldn't even scratch proper plate armor is only limited fun when you have to pay > 2000 gold for repairs.
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as i have written before, in light armour (ragged clothes) i can take 1 - 2 hits, in medium (studded leather over mail) it needs 2 - 4 hits and in heavy (gotic plate) 3 - 5 hits to bring me down (all values without any points in IF).
so, heavy armour does its job.
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I am tired of paying high upkeep without noticeable gain. Being three hitted by a weapon that IRL couldn't even scratch proper plate armor is only limited fun when you have to pay > 2000 gold for repairs.
Same. I think heavy armor has too many downsides and I'm still trying to figure out what if any upsides left. You're slow as a turtle, can still get 1 hit headshot by ranged (hey that plate helmet is actually cardboard you know), get staggered and interrupted by every little hit as if you aren't wearing armor and your gold is drained. Other than looks ( which aren't worth it) there's no sufficient reason for me to want use it anymore.
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... You're slow as a turtle, ...
Some older video because of the running speed.
There is harde any difference at short distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM)
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as i have written before, in light armour (ragged clothes) i can take 1 - 2 hits, in medium (studded leather over mail) it needs 2 - 4 hits and in heavy (gotic plate) 3 - 5 hits to bring me down (all values without any points in IF).
so, heavy armour does its job.
So you admit it yourself that the gain is ridiculous. You get more gain from going from light to medium than from medium to heavy, but the cost and other side effects explode.
Also, top running speed is irrelevant, what counts is acceleration on short distances, you know, to evade swings and the like.
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Because it's better than Heavy armor. I personally really like my new havy armor fits me well, and I feel like whenever I enter a battle, heads turn (or come off completely) and the whole area tends to light up, atmosphere and all
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Did you read the OP Ujio?
I don't even remember starting this thread.
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Really? haha. No I'm afraid I didn't :D, Just the title. I really like the poshness of the title as well, didn't realise the queen played C-rpg :D
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Some older video because of the running speed.
There is harde any difference at short distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVmKkfDxzM)
Well maybe cause I used a shield + heavy armor for a while which made me quite slow even with 6 athletics. But anyway heavy armor is more trouble than it's worth IMO. Easier and much less annoying just to wear rags, save your gold and be fast. In fact I'm getting rid of my lordly armor. I'd rather have something far more useful and effective.
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So you admit it yourself that the gain is ridiculous. You get more gain from going from light to medium than from medium to heavy, but the cost and other side effects explode.
Also, top running speed is irrelevant, what counts is acceleration on short distances, you know, to evade swings and the like.
It still protects you better.
And the video is about the accleration on short distances.
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I think it's quite noticeable in the video. Also, you didn't wear a helmet, which is silly. Why would you wear plate armor when you can be killed with one overhead swing?
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because it messes my hair, (and i would look like the 1000 other tincans).
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(and i would look like the 1000 other tincans).
:?:
Join eu1 or siege at any given time an try to gather atleast 2 or 3 tincans out of a 100 players....
God you really hate plate armor huh :?: do you have 5 or less ps or something :?:
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Maintaining a full tincan is noticeably more expensive than feeding and petting an Arabian Warhorse - somehow the priorities are messed up here. :rolleyes:
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Honestly all plate armor should be given the old armor soak values back to make them more than just armor with more protection.
Make them unique in that they will cause glances to cut damage weapons.
Pierce and Blunt will still eat plate alive.
In return increase the weight of all the newly edited play armors by 30-40 percent.
This will make plate armor wearers very slow and their wpf affected noticeably.
Please don't post saying "you can run and jump in plate armor IRL"
Please balance =\= realism
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I had a fully loomed set of plate armor and I got rid of it about a month ago because it is useless compared to medium body armor.
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Just got killed by one thrust from a ninja with Bastard Sword, wearing full Milanese plate with 70% health left - that's pure fun. :mrgreen:
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Honestly all plate armor should be given the old armor soak values back to make them more than just armor with more protection.
Make them unique in that they will cause glances to cut damage weapons.
Pierce and Blunt will still eat plate alive.
While fun i don't think it will work out since too many people use agi builds with low ps.
The forums would be flooded in tears...
I suggest that the weight an the armor an price gets reduced drastically so that you could wear the armors without having to pay stupid amounts of upkeep just for looks... since i don't see how they could buff the heavy armors without the agi lobby goin insane.
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Comparing fully loomed gothic plate to unloomed haubergeon - my k/d rockets in battle/siege with one set but can u guess which?
That's right, the haubergeon.
I was going to say that as long as ranged doesnt get me I can pwn in haubergeon but i get hs by 1 arrow in gothic too so it doesnt make a difference.
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Loomed medium armor >>> whatever heavy armor can bring you. Only time I notice heavy armor is good is on 36 STR builds who are slow regardless. (But that's mostly ironflesh's work)
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Honestly all plate armor should be given the old armor soak values back to make them more than just armor with more protection.
Make them unique in that they will cause glances to cut damage weapons.
Pierce and Blunt will still eat plate alive.
I agree with that.
In return increase the weight of all the newly edited play armors by 30-40 percent.
This will make plate armor wearers very slow and their wpf affected noticeably.
Please don't post saying "you can run and jump in plate armor IRL"
Please balance =\= realism
Plate is already slow enough. Any more and you might as well just sit at spawn and wait for enemies to come to you.
Has anyone seen a plate wearer recently who WASN'T using some sort of crushthrough weapon? There's a reason for that and it's because they are far too slow to have a regular fight with blocking and footwork and mauling is the best option for being effective and not dying in a flurry of spam from any and everything.
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Yeah, I guess RandomDude is one of the last plated players who doesn't use a great maul exclusively. Him and Georges, but haven't seen the latter in quite some time.
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I do try to use my plate as often as I can, when I can afford it.
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So do I. Hmmm, maybe we should form the brotherhood of steel. Or the robot army. Or something.
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Plate is already slow enough. Any more and you might as well just sit at spawn and wait for
Plate doesn't slow you down if you use it in combination with pure STR build (you're already slow lol). Wearing plate as AGI build is stupid, because you lose almost all your speed but don't gain much because it's HP that allows you to survive, not armor rating. All thanks to armor ignore flag all ranged have and no glancing and damage soak changes.
In other words, plate is awesome if you roll 36/3 build but it's shit if you wear plate with any build that has less than 27 STR and full IF.
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I feel that it wouldn't be much of a buff to plate wearers. If any at all.
Also I feel the
5 most expensive leg armors
3 most expensive hand armors
6 most expensive head armors
should qualify for this armor soak/weight change.
For example average NA strength 2her build
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 27
Agility: 12
Hit points: 80
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 9
Power Strike: 9
Athletics: 4
Weapon Master: 1
Two Handed: 119
Wearing Gothic Plate with Bevor
weight: 27.9
head armor: 8
body armor: 56
leg armor: 20
difficulty:
But the new armor weight would be 39.06 (40 percent increase)
Cased Greaves
weight: 3.6
leg armor: 39
difficulty: 15
With new values/weight weight increase to 5.04 round to 5.1 weight
Plate Mittens
weight: 1.4
body armor: 8
difficulty: 14
New value/weight increase to 1.96 --> 2 weight
Milanese Sallet
weight: 3.8
head armor: 58
difficulty: 16
Increase weight to 5.32 or 5.3 weight
And say we are using a danish greatsword since most 2hers have no sense of identity and want to use what is popular.
weapon length: 124
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 124
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 40 cut
Using the crpg damage calculator here is what we get
Damage values
Minimum: 49
Average: 55.5
Maximum: 62
Effective wpf
Armor Weight: 51.5
Effective Armor Weight: 57.1
Effective WPF: 51
WPF penalty from weight: 68
Original wpf 119 - 68 penalty an effective wpf of 51
People having this massive of a penalty is certainly reasonable if old armor soak values are re-implemented.
Not to mention what an effective armor weight of 57.1 would do to your walking/running speed
Strength builds w/plate will be stronger more durable and slower
As they should be
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:?:
Join eu1 or siege at any given time an try to gather atleast 2 or 3 tincans out of a 100 players....
God you really hate plate armor huh :?: do you have 5 or less ps or something :?:
Naa, i hate everyone.
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In other words, plate is awesome if you roll 36/3 build
If you use a maul too. It'd be nice if heavier armor actually protected as you'd expect but I know that's too much to ask from other players NOT to whine when their sword isn't effective and useful against everything.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. All metal armour is heavy armour and is for bad players or siege. The purpose of armour is to allow you to survive more mistakes (or i guess more ranged shots which you cant do as much about... but maybe you should all be wonderful agi shielders hmm?). If you don't make lots of mistakes or frequently run around in a mass clump of players, then you shouldnt be crutching on armour (and if you frequently fight lots of players you should probably be a wonderful agi shielder).
moral of the story? everyone should roll 12-24 agi shielders with 8 shield skill huscarls... this would mean no more ranged because they would get raped all the time, and people would die in 1-2 mistakes and the game would be awesome. (and agi shielders can dodge horses pretty easy... so not a lot of horses either, and some could be hoplites, others would use axes and some would use swords)
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Matey pls.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. All metal armour is heavy armour and is for bad players or siege. The purpose of armour is to allow you to survive more mistakes (or i guess more ranged shots which you cant do as much about... but maybe you should all be wonderful agi shielders hmm?). If you don't make lots of mistakes or frequently run around in a mass clump of players, then you shouldnt be crutching on armour (and if you frequently fight lots of players you should probably be a wonderful agi shielder).
moral of the story? everyone should roll 12-24 agi shielders with 8 shield skill huscarls... this would mean no more ranged because they would get raped all the time, and people would die in 1-2 mistakes and the game would be awesome. (and agi shielders can dodge horses pretty easy... so not a lot of horses either, and some could be hoplites, others would use axes and some would use swords)
Plate/Str crutchers remind me of the phrase "retard strength". They can make many mistakes and get team hit a million times. If they land one hit on you... then you are most likely dead or black barred.
But then you feel better because you realize that you are normal and they just have an extra chromosome.
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moral of the story? everyone should roll 12-24 agi shielders with 8 shield skill huscarls...
No.
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Plate/Str crutchers remind me of the phrase "retard strength". They can make many mistakes and get team hit a million times. If they land one hit on you... then you are most likely dead or black barred.
But then you feel better because you realize that you are normal and they just have an extra chromosome.
Yeah I hate those strength crutchers. All trying to have a build that lets them survive longer...lame. They should just take out anything that lets you survive longer like shields. crpg needs to be non crutch so I recommend removing all gear and have punching only. Turn it into a boxing sim pls.