cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 10:26:34 am

Title: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 10:26:34 am
Currently the 2h lolstab is a bit of a problem and it seems as though we're running out of reasonable solutions to balance it without damaging polarms and/or one handed weapons.

Now, in my mind, a sword like a Danish Great Sword shouldn't be lifted with two hands over the shoulder for an over-extended poke, but would probably be half-sworded to get an effective stab done.  This goes for just about all two handed swords with the possible exception of the longsword and Bastard Sword(s).

The way to incorporate this would be to either remove the normal two-hand stab from longer swords or just make it slower and weaker compared to switching to the half-sword mode and stabbing with it like a polearm.  I tested this with a few friends and we discovered that the polearm stab did almost as much damage (if not more) as the normal stab animation, and the only downside was the lack of reach (I have no wpf in polearms) and yet I still managed to be fast enough to score a good hit that dealt a fair deal of damage a good majority of the time.

That's just my two cents, maybe I forgot something, I don't know.  If you don't like it then go on ahead and complain (just see how much I care :))


EDIT: to add more, increasing the speed and damage to the half-sword stab probably wouldn't be a bad addition to this solution.  And the reason I state that the stab should remain the same (possibly) for the hand-and-a-half swords is because they're lighter and shorter and could be imagined to be fairly easy to stab with in that manner (especially while fencing / dueling.)

Also, this would help solve the problem where a two handed sword stabs further out and faster than most polearms do, regardless of what the length is listed as.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Deltah on June 20, 2012, 10:59:29 am
Utilizing my own four foot long katana in real life, I attempted to perform the "lolstab." While it is a curved blade, it is lighter and shorter than these ridiculously dramatized great-swords I see breaking the sound barrier in Crpg, It did not perform well. The stance in itself is awkward, and I found a lack of actual thrusting power. It also left me in a position unfit for parrying, and if I were to have been using the meter and a half long two handed weapons I continuously get raped by in the mod, than I would have probably fallen over due to sheer body physics, regardless of tensile strength. I could possibly kill someone with it if they had an open flesh wound, and if I were jumping from a pool deck. With a shorter straight sword, like one of the bastards, it could be slightly feasible. Otherwise, your guard is open, and you have no control over the weapon, nor power behind the thrust itself. I advise any of you who own two handed swords that are half as ridiculous as the ones found in crpg, to attempt this animation. And to any who would like to argue that this is Crpg and that realism has no place because you don't want to see your injustice rectified, than I invite you to personally come to my house so that I can end your life in the most grotesque of manners and devolve you back down into the primordial scum you personify.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 11:39:15 am
There's a way how to fix twohanded stab but many won't like it.

Change it so it glances most of time.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 11:55:43 am
Make it so that only the tip is pierce. Same for spears. Since apparently cmp can do that, well.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 20, 2012, 11:59:40 am
Give all greatswords polestab :D
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 12:01:08 pm
There's nothing to fix, except for maybe your right mouse button.

2h and pole are different, and should stay so.

If you had problems with 2h stabs before you were slow... If you have problems with them now my only advice to you is to try to stay at least partially awake while playing.

Realism turds go in here ---> http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,69.0.html

Un-nerf the stabs and speed up the game please.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 12:04:00 pm
That halfswording-stab idea doesn't sound too stupid to me.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 12:10:34 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 12:01:08 pm
There's nothing to fix, except for maybe your right mouse button.

2h and pole are different, and should stay so.

If you had problems with 2h stabs before you were slow... If you have problems with them now my only advice to you is to try to stay at least partially awake while playing.

Realism turds go in here ---> http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,69.0.html

Un-nerf the stabs and speed up the game please.

It's not a "realism turd" :lol: it's an actual game balance idea that only brings up slight realism points to put the idea into perspective.

I'm sorry to say but only a true abuser of the strength attribute and a direct user of the "lolstab" would be willing to say that there's nothing wrong with the current 2h stab mechanic.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 12:14:30 pm
I'm a polearmer/shielder with a balanced build.

And the proper "lolstab" is practically unusable thanks to the recent nerf.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 12:16:57 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 12:14:30 pm
I'm a polearmer/shielder with a balanced build.

And the proper "lolstab" is practically unusable thanks to the recent nerf.

Quote from: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 10:26:34 am
Currently the 2h lolstab is a bit of a problem and it seems as though we're running out of reasonable solutions to balance it without damaging polarms and/or one handed weapons.

Re-quote because I already stated that there's other solutions outside of maiming every other melee class.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 12:17:45 pm
Don't listen to Dezilagel. He's some dumb swedish teenager who stopped playing because game is "too slow" for him.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 12:20:23 pm
I'm from the other side of the ocean, so I'm only familiar with our shit heads, so thanks for letting me know.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 12:28:53 pm
But I don't think there's anything wrong with the 2h stab, which you seem to assume.

It gives (gave*) the 2h a nice form of range control and is a much needed boon for them in the versatility department where pole and 1h otherwise rule with stuff such as being able to carry a shield and balanced shieldbreaking. The stab gives (gave*) the 2h swords some much-needed support ability and it is (was*) a fun mechanic for dueling and is (was*) also essential for fighting groups as a 2h.

Some people made great use of it, most people sucked with it, but it kept 2h and pole different. (the pole and the 1h stab had their own advantages, mainly speed)


Oh, I see you've found some support from Leshma :lol:, good job!
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 12:39:44 pm
Quote from: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 12:20:23 pm
I'm from the other side of the ocean, so I'm only familiar with our shit heads, so thanks for letting me know.
Maybe we can swap our shit heads some day... spice it up a little for everyone. Could be fun.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 12:45:06 pm
Our NA shitheads just start drama, I guess it'd be nice for a change.


Fortunately I don't have to deal with the patches yet but I figure there's hope to find a fix (as I've stated before) to balance out the classes to minimalize QQ and rage for at least awhile. It would also give 2h a new learning curve as you'd need to learn how to fight properly without relying on your twirly 360 2h lolstab from across the map.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Deltah on June 20, 2012, 12:45:21 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 12:01:08 pm
There's nothing to fix, except for maybe your right mouse button.

2h and pole are different, and should stay so.

If you had problems with 2h stabs before you were slow... If you have problems with them now my only advice to you is to try to stay at least partially awake while playing.

Realism turds go in here ---> http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,69.0.html

Un-nerf the stabs and speed up the game please.


So you propose that all of those who are not at your skill level are mentally incompetent, and that obviously because of their inability to effectively combat the abuse of such a silly blunder on part of the game, that they have no right to rectify it? And because its a game based upon things that have once occurred in real life, drawing everything from that realm, that a strive for realism can not be used as an effective argument in the cause of balance in the name of all that is right, and just, and fun, in said game? That is the exact sort of prude and blatant disrespect for the game itself and its players, that points out your own lack of empathy. Does a man of your caliber even have stable grounds to stand on for the betterment of this gaming community? At the very best, you are "trolling."

 We are currently in a two-handed-holocaust of horrendous proportions. By the updates in the past year or so, everyone who is not a religious two-hander has been systematically de-buffed and utilized as danish target practice. Now we are at the time of reckoning, when all of the evil preparations have finally come together enough to the point of slaughtering the game itself. If you are two-handed, that is fine, and I have love for you, but the games mechanics combined with the code modification as per crpg patches, is out for blood!
Stop holding such a bias because you like the domination you hold as a two-hander, it is wrong, and unjust toward those who do not share your playstyle! To keep this utopia, we must fight for some sort of balance, as in all things proper should be. Life balances itself out quite nicely, so look to the realism my friends, it is where true salvation lies.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on June 20, 2012, 12:50:11 pm
Dez is a polearmer, so he shares little bias with 2h.

The only 2h I am allowed to use which has a stab is the katana. Not much lolstabbing done with that and I say that 2h lolstab was never much of a problem and any issues that there were with it are now gone with the latest nerf.

2h stab is a powerful attack, but I notice that it's also usually one of the most easily chamberable attacks.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 12:54:37 pm
What you need to know about Dezilagel:

- former poleaxe abuser
- helicopter
- qqed how polestagger is op but stopped playing when they removed it
- has one attack pattern

And one time I've dueled him gaysword vs gaysword, all he did was thrusting. I think he uses macros to attack because there is zero creativity in his playstyle.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on June 20, 2012, 12:57:47 pm
You forgot his beautiful singing voice and skills with a guitar.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Deltah on June 20, 2012, 01:06:21 pm
Any chance we could go back to the balancing discussion and stop stroking eachothers e-phalluses? This new "fix" better do as it says or a martyr I shall go down.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 01:14:18 pm
I fully support 2h lolstab nerf.

I'm playing twohander for almost a year, use best sword for stabbing and know couple of dirty tricks myself, including lolstab to the face which is something most people never block.

Good damage, easy to use, epic range. Deserves a nerf imho.

Or just buff other weapons.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 02:51:08 pm
Leshma changes from 2h lobbying to polearm lobbying without even a hint of shame after acquiring a MW bec

exemplary
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 03:12:31 pm
Sigh.

I'm not saying that everyone who can't block stabs is a retard, but those who whine about them instead of learning how to fight them deserve to get slapped around a little imho. It's not a "silly blunder", it's part of the game. M@B is not a medieval combat simulator, it's a game.

We all had to learn how to combat and counter them, it's part of getting better at the game, and at the end of the day when you can both combat and use the stabs they become a fun part of the game.

You may not notice it, but these kinds of mechanic changes, while they do help newbies get into the game they kill the complexity and 'fun' of more advanced melee fighting. I did a 'tl;dr wall of text' on why I think the reduced turnspeed is bad. It kills thing such as fighting groups of people by yourself, duelling, you find yourself simply screwed in situations you could fight your way out of previously etc...


And Leshma, I have no idea why you try to go personal all the time, it only makes you look like a dick, but the reason I stopped playing was not stagger removal. Removing stagger was an awesome change. I had some rl issues a few days after the removal but then this turnrate nerf bullshit struck, which made me rq. I still occasionally play on the unupdated servers though, if you're so eager.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 03:29:18 pm
When will you guys learn to use the correct terms?

What you call a lolstab: every 2h stab (because of its range)
What is really a lolstab: 180°+ spinning stab (which isn't possible anymore)

Call it longstab or something like that.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 03:32:08 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on June 20, 2012, 03:29:18 pm
When will you guys learn to use the correct terms?

What you call a lolstab: every 2h stab (because of its range)
What is really a lolstab: 180°+ spinning stab (which isn't possible anymore)

Call it longstab or something like that.
Go back to coding and leave the pointless arguing to the professionals!

PS keep up the good work.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 04:18:27 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on June 20, 2012, 03:29:18 pm
When will you guys learn to use the correct terms?

What you call a lolstab: every 2h stab (because of its range)
What is really a lolstab: 180°+ spinning stab (which isn't possible anymore)

Call it longstab or something like that.

Aiming thrust in random direction, releasing it and then dragging it into the enemy is lolstab as well. Same can be done with overhead but overhead doesn't have epic range.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 20, 2012, 07:55:33 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on June 20, 2012, 03:29:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

Thought lolstab was back in the day when 2h thrusts were insanely fast and it was hard to retaliate when getting thrustspammed.. Anyways honestly, nerfing melee even more will just make people stop playing because it will get pretty boring after a while. Instead of nerfing I'd say buff stuff to balance it out as nerfing will just make the game slower and slower. IMO 2h thrust is fine atm, after playing my 2h alt a few weeks i found out it the reach is effective, but it is also risky to thrust as sometimes the blockstun thingy can give the opponent a free hit.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Artyem on June 20, 2012, 09:12:37 pm
Yes, the current patch that is taking place on the EU servers basically kills Polearms, and the point of this suggestion was to not maime every other class but to simply tone down the stabs of two handed swords.  Lolstab was irritating but "longstabs" as cmp wants us to put it are still there and just as BS since you're still lifting a gigantic 3 - 4 ft long sword over your head to lunge it out at your enemy, which should probably not be as fast as it currently is, and it certainly wouldn't kill a man with one poke unless he was in cloth or had no helmet. 

THAT is why I even considered sharing this idea as it suits the desire for those who want realism and those who seek game balance. Yes, you can go on ahead and say that the only people complaining about it are people who aren't capable of blocking, or that they're new players who have no clue what they're talking about, but in the end it's a valid suggestion that would leave melee weapons balanced so that we can continue bitching about how OP ranged is like usual.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Deltah on June 20, 2012, 09:25:30 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 03:12:31 pm
Sigh.

I'm not saying that everyone who can't block stabs is a retard, but those who whine about them instead of learning how to fight them deserve to get slapped around a little imho. It's not a "silly blunder", it's part of the game. M@B is not a medieval combat simulator, it's a game.

We all had to learn how to combat and counter them, it's part of getting better at the game, and at the end of the day when you can both combat and use the stabs they become a fun part of the game.


The problem of these lolstabs and hilt slashes and isn't that "I'm bad," its that they are as ridiculous as they are deadly, and how all of these things culminate to causing a severe imbalance within the game. How many two handers in comparison to any other build do you see topping the scoreboards often?  I have had too many cases in which I have taken my two years of experience, and my masterworked sword, and outperformed countless people, and it has come to the point where they win not because they are better than me at the game, not because they use superior teamwork or tactics, but because I can hit them 9 or so times with no consequence to them whatsoever, and they merely must mash left click until their blade gets lucky and catches me on a technicality, just once. Everything but two handed has turned into the cliche of a knife in a gunfight.  I feel as though I am a mortal man fighting against genetically engineered super powered knights. Yes indeed this game is about learning and getting better, but then all of a sudden how is that right if a weapon set is so horrendously overpowered that all of that skill and tact becomes nothing more than a fart in the wind?
When I play this game, after two years, I should be able to do more than walk around and shove my cock in a danish blender, no matter what build I play.


Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 09:47:02 pm
Quote
but because I can hit them 9 or so times with no consequence to them whatsoever, and they merely must mash left click until their blade gets lucky and catches me on a technicality
This is an issue with 1h cut damage vs the higher tier helmets, which I feel should be adjusted. Not an issue with stabs.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Deltah on June 20, 2012, 10:12:19 pm
Yes, but Saul, my point is that any kid can pick up a two handed sword and with the build to use one, with the addition of the weapons bullshit, such as stabs and hiltslash etc, allow them to outmatch most players without  any skill requirement aside from the mediocre manual blocking it takes to counter the slower, shorter, and less damaging weapons that shielders and other 1h use. One handers and  some pole-arm users on the other hand are practically required to have flawless footwork, superior timing, and to be in the practice of chambering, feinting, and holding, if they are to effectively counter any soccer mom with a danish. To be fighting someone of the same skill level than me or higher who happens to be using a two handed weapon, is shoving my cock into a blender repeatedly and expecting different results. That is by my definition, silly and one sided. Thus, imbalanced.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: duurrr on June 20, 2012, 11:42:18 pm
i lold at how bad 2h stabs are in crpg compared to native
and guess what, crpg takes nowhere as much playerskill as native melee wise

solution ? stop crutching on range and actually learn to play the game, learn to play melee
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 11:52:18 pm
2 years?!

Sorry, but then it's clearly just a l2p issue, really.

With that amount of experience... I mean come on.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Deltah on June 21, 2012, 02:23:39 am
Quote from: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 11:52:18 pm
2 years?!

Sorry, but then it's clearly just a l2p issue, really.

With that amount of experience... I mean come on.

l2comprehend, l2competence, l2empathy, l2human. Aside from that, as far as I am concerned you can go back into the troll-hole you came out of and l2die nub lolololol1111. Alright now back to the English language, the favored method of communication among the majority of people here. I'm sorry for sending searing pains through your rectum via my verbal expression, but you fail to comprehend logic so you should probably just go back to trolling the spam threads or something that doesn't impede the communities progress. Something aside from rustling my jimmies. My jimmies are masterworked.
___________________________________________________________________________

Adversaries shall hath wrath!
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Smoothrich on June 21, 2012, 01:06:44 pm
are you saying na_1 is a danish blender?  seriously 90 percent of the melee builds are long polearms + heavy armor or shielders with steel picks/hammers, plus occasional strength build 1 handers with swords.  fewer 2handers than I've seen at any point in the mod.  scoreboards are usually one 2hander in the top5-10 of either team, rest are cav/1hander hybrids or strength build heavy armor halberd/bill/awlpike/glaive/etc

also i have 7 IF and 57 head armor, most 1handers with loomed swords take off 50 percent or more of my HP with a left swing to my +3 pigface klappviser, steel picks usually do about 80 percent of my HP, boy thats underpowered
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Paul on June 21, 2012, 01:07:52 pm
90% in NA units.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: San on June 21, 2012, 03:16:37 pm
Maybe it's because I use a short weapon that gets outranged by everything, but I don't have any particular problem against the 2h stabs compared to any of the other swing directions. I actually look for stabs since I can chamber them with a good chance that they won't be able to block it. I'm more annoyed by stabs going through enemy teammates since it's hard to predict when handling multiple people.

@Smoothrich
I have 58 head armor and 7 IF with 24 strength, and 1h cut weapons do like 10-20% damage at most, held swings may do double that. Agi hammer/picks can do 30%. Maybe that 1 armor makes a huge difference? -_-
A mixture of held swings and speedbonus vastly increases damage.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 21, 2012, 03:42:36 pm
Quote from: duurrr on June 20, 2012, 11:42:18 pm
i lold at how bad 2h stabs are in crpg compared to native
and guess what, crpg takes nowhere as much playerskill as native melee wise

solution ? stop crutching on range and actually learn to play the game, learn to play melee

Okay, so to make cRPG require as much playerskill as native is to make everyone play melee better?
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Smoothrich on June 21, 2012, 09:52:50 pm
I was in a strat battle the other day and some fallen strength shielder with 1handed cleaver nearly blackbarred me with a single left swing, wearing 45~ head armor. 

Nonloomed pubbie 1handers without strength builds and don't hold swings or use pierce usually just glance off the head armor, yeah, but 9/10 shielders use picks and hammers now anyways, which hit harder then any greatsword in the game if they left swing at your head, which they do with every swing

if all these backpedaling and weapon reach/attack type nerfs go through, why shouldn't everyone just go strength build shielder with a hammer or pick.   seems like it will be broken
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: bruce on June 21, 2012, 11:43:27 pm
Cmp said something about boosting kick.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Leshma on June 23, 2012, 06:50:30 pm
Since polearms were nerfed, many respecced/retired to twohanders. There's a way to stop that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu1yD5XhMb0&feature=player_embedded

What do you guys think? Better or worse?

They seem a bit OP to me, reading feints looks harder.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Visconti on June 24, 2012, 06:42:19 am
Quote from: Leshma on June 23, 2012, 06:50:30 pm
Since polearms were nerfed, many respecced/retired to twohanders. There's a way to stop that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu1yD5XhMb0&feature=player_embedded

What do you guys think? Better or worse?

They seem a bit OP to me, reading feints looks harder.

Those animations look worst then the ones in the first mount and blade.

Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Patoson on June 24, 2012, 06:53:32 am
I've been saying this for some time now: greatswords should have polearm stab or something in between (and I'm a 2h).
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Artyem on June 24, 2012, 11:38:04 am
To lighten things up in this thread I thought I'd make this:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Anyway, yeah, polearm stab on greatswords is the only way to balance the game without needing to completely wreck every other class and I can see that not many people agree, yet if you removed the rotation nerf it could work pretty well.
Title: Re: A suggestion to solve 2h lolstab?
Post by: Magikarp on June 24, 2012, 02:35:56 pm
Lol, so in other words: make the danish the best 2hander out there? Idiotic whining is what I'd call that.

Lolstabbing ain't possible anymore, so why nerf weapons that are MEANT to have stab?