cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: FuryBlade_KeBaB on June 14, 2012, 12:24:11 am

Title: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: FuryBlade_KeBaB on June 14, 2012, 12:24:11 am
Hey guys,
I have a polearm Alt, and noticed that spinning around was different.
it seems like i can“t spin around fast anymore. Wtf is up with that?
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: BlindGuy on June 14, 2012, 12:24:46 am
Just that, you cant spin around anymore. Deal with it  8-)
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Dexxtaa on June 14, 2012, 12:29:51 am
+1 for hilarious discussion and questions.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Aleskander on June 14, 2012, 12:33:25 am
So you can't poledance anymore?
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Rumblood on June 14, 2012, 12:35:03 am
So you can't poledance anymore?

Oddly enough, Dexx's avatar provides the appropriate gif.

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Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Baggy on June 14, 2012, 12:40:57 am
End the exploitation of rabbits.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Dexxtaa on June 14, 2012, 01:05:50 am
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Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: duurrr on June 14, 2012, 01:07:44 am
yea they dont want crpg to take much player skill
next they'll probably slow the game down again by nerfing wpf again and buff range coz you know, fuck you playerskill
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Dan lol on June 14, 2012, 01:10:26 am
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thats not a poledance, thats a pooldance har har
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Momo on June 14, 2012, 01:10:41 am
yea they dont want crpg to take much player skill
next they'll probably slow the game down again by nerfing wpf again and buff range coz you know, fuck you playerskill

Yes, because abusing the spin really required a lot of skill.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Baggy on June 14, 2012, 01:17:24 am
They already said they were going to increase combat speed...
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Tanken on June 14, 2012, 05:44:14 am
Ah cool, so I guess it's time to just use 2handers since they're obviously the best weapon in game now. GG Devs. GG. (p.s. this isn't entirely about the Polearm spin)
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Vodner on June 14, 2012, 06:55:35 am
Quote
Yes, because abusing the spin really required a lot of skill.
Consistently blocking while violently moving your camera around is trickier than blocking while keeping your camera relatively steady. Sadly it's possible to build your character such that you can survive numerous blocking errors, but that's not really the fault of spin stabs.

Every change that reduces the number of viable options a player has in melee reduces the depth of melee combat, and decreases the skill gap between players. Considering the community is growing more skilled over time, this is the exact opposite of what should probably be happening.

Personally I would like new tricks and mechanics to be added for players to learn. Getting better at the game right now is mostly just a matter of polishing mechanics that you have already understood for well over a year. This is a lot less exciting than combat was a (long) while back, when people were still discovering new tricks and tactics.

I can't speak for other players, but for me the feeling of getting better and learning new things is what makes a multiplayer game fun. Reducing available options feels like the opposite of this.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Swaggart on June 14, 2012, 07:06:56 am
Yes, because abusing the spin really required a lot of skill.

About the same amount of skill as blocking down.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Vibe on June 14, 2012, 07:23:54 am
Ah cool, so I guess it's time to just use 2handers since they're obviously the best weapon in game now. GG Devs. GG. (p.s. this isn't entirely about the Polearm spin)

Ehm, the spinning nerf goes for all weapons, not just polearms. Also 2h are getting another nerf soon.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Xant on June 14, 2012, 07:53:17 am
Consistently blocking while violently moving your camera around is trickier than blocking while keeping your camera relatively steady. Sadly it's possible to build your character such that you can survive numerous blocking errors, but that's not really the fault of spin stabs.

Every change that reduces the number of viable options a player has in melee reduces the depth of melee combat, and decreases the skill gap between players. Considering the community is growing more skilled over time, this is the exact opposite of what should probably be happening.

Personally I would like new tricks and mechanics to be added for players to learn. Getting better at the game right now is mostly just a matter of polishing mechanics that you have already understood for well over a year. This is a lot less exciting than combat was a (long) while back, when people were still discovering new tricks and tactics.

I can't speak for other players, but for me the feeling of getting better and learning new things is what makes a multiplayer game fun. Reducing available options feels like the opposite of this.

Yeah, agreed completely. But I think it's way too late now.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: bilwit on June 14, 2012, 07:59:21 am
Just hop on NA servers and lolspin/polestun to your heart's content.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on June 14, 2012, 08:12:26 am
Wasn't the spinning with a chambered attack nerf part of the warband update in all?
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Miley on June 14, 2012, 08:19:27 am
Polestagger's fine--you can't spam a polearm like a two-hander.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: cmp on June 14, 2012, 01:39:19 pm
Also 2h are getting another nerf soon.

wat
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: LordBerenger on June 14, 2012, 01:44:26 pm
Ehm, the spinning nerf goes for all weapons, not just polearms. Also 2h are getting another nerf soon.

I think their nerf was that they can't spinstab as much. Too bad there's no proper reach nerf which is the real problem. Let em have spinstab and shit just nerf reach lol.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on June 14, 2012, 01:48:01 pm
I think their nerf was that they can't spinstab as much. Too bad there's no proper reach nerf which is the real problem. Let em have spinstab and shit just nerf reach lol.

that is probably the most sensible thing you have ever said thats not bullshit.  :shock:
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: SixThumbs on June 14, 2012, 02:51:25 pm
"The mad duck made something spin around!"
"Jeff does not have any PP"
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Vibe on June 14, 2012, 02:55:10 pm
wat

I was refering to the post where you said that "2h are getting a nice surprise" which made me think that 2h are getting a nerf.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: BD_SUPERBEAST on June 14, 2012, 03:03:51 pm
Shit u can no lolstab with poles now omg!!! how can that be? Maybe cause pole users been crying about 2 years about lolstabbing and doing it themselves(as it was a game mechanic doable with any thrustable weapon)? Rofl . Really the forums here are getting more and more hilarious each day.

Nerf lolstab nerf lolstab! omg i can not lolstab! xDDDDD
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Leshma on June 14, 2012, 03:06:53 pm
I was refering to the post where you said that "2h are getting a nice surprise" which made me think that 2h are getting a nerf.

That was before spin stab nerf :wink:
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Christo on June 14, 2012, 03:07:47 pm
What about 2handed sword stabs getting polearm stab animation?

This can lead to a stab damage buff, even.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Vibe on June 14, 2012, 03:10:47 pm
That was before spin stab nerf :wink:

Oh didn't think it was this since pole and 1h were affected by it too.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Oberyn on June 14, 2012, 04:12:47 pm
Does it go for bows as well?
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Draggon on June 14, 2012, 04:21:34 pm
I personally never felt the spin stab was much of a problem, it's a viable tactic IMO.  But what's fuqed up about polearms in general to me has always been the fact that you can stab someone right next to you with a 15-foot weapon.  When I used that during my 2 Gens as polearms I thought it was hilarious and great at the same time.  Now that I'm no longer poles, it's as aggravating as losing connection during a good porn vid.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Leshma on June 14, 2012, 04:29:29 pm
Oh didn't think it was this since pole and 1h were affected by it too.

Well, my logic does like this.

Cmpx doesn't use spin stab as polearm player from what I saw. Lolstab is known as 2H "exploit", devs probably weren't aware that many poleam users and some onehanders rely on it. They probably thought it's gona be nerf for 2h lolstab and pike lolstab only and that other classes will stay unaffected.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: dynamike on June 14, 2012, 04:52:32 pm
RIP Heavy Lance melee only dynamike  :cry:

Was nice while it lasted and always a surprise to the people I beat with it.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 14, 2012, 04:56:06 pm
Yeah I don't think the spinning thrusts and overheads were much of a problem, very rarely saw the overhead spinners with a great maul, and the spinning pike thrusts didn't seem like a huge problem either (just down block). 

I think "turning" into your swings was too heavily nerfed, if you're turning more than 180 degrees then the nerf should take effect, but even turning 90 degrees into your stab will sometimes cause it to stop stabbing (even though the animation continues it seems like).

Like a couple others have said, and the first time Berenger posted something even remotely logical, is the real issue.  The problem is if someone is standing next to you, your 15 foot weapon shouldn't be able to hit them.  That's the problem, not the spinning stabs.  This is the same reason it's possible to bump-couch, or bump-thrust with a heavy lance. 

And I hear ya dyna, I still use my MW heavy lance when I'm playing footman because I don't want to risk losing crafting for strategus.  I've still been able to do decent with it in squad fighting, but it was never a 1v1 weapon (although you can use it 1v1 and come out on top, longer spears and lances are support weapons).
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Penitent on June 14, 2012, 05:12:10 pm
Yeah, it's better to fix the too-close-thrust than the spin-thrust.

Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Zanze on June 14, 2012, 06:52:31 pm
This gonna make me have to bring a sidearm to my long spear isn't it? Great...Choose a Polearm as a main weapon, but when shit hits the fan you have to switch to a 1h or 2h. Balance.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: cmp on June 14, 2012, 09:00:18 pm
I was refering to the post where you said that "2h are getting a nice surprise" which made me think that 2h are getting a nerf.

Oh, that was completely made up just to mess with a couple of 2h whiners celebrating on that thread.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Osiris on June 14, 2012, 09:18:07 pm
IMO you shouldnt be able to stab past someones head then spin into it and kill them its just retarded. Maybe give pikes and spears more stab damage. its what they are used for.. not jumping around like a damn helicopter abusing the mechanics and calling it skillz



we do need some new combat mechanics but real ones that actually look good and are not just abusing mechanics :P

a pike being braced against a foot that deals couched lvl damage to a horse would be epic among other things. crouch etc
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Zanze on June 14, 2012, 09:25:53 pm
Thats the polearm version of the 2h "skills." Which if you don't already know is going 36/3, wearing plate and using a danish. Then whining when they refused to downblock during the large timeframe in which the polearm performed the helicopter circus act. Spinstabs and jumpstabs were all pikes/longspears had in the case their teammates died. Now we HAVE to switch to a 1h or 2h weapon and that is pretty damned stupid.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Osiris on June 14, 2012, 09:32:54 pm
that is crpg :P

most people want the ability to jump around like conan swinging impossibly big swords at incredible speed killing everyone instantly while all other weapon types are slow and deal next to no damage :D
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Chasey on June 14, 2012, 10:24:45 pm
IMO you shouldnt be able to stab past someones head then spin into it and kill them its just retarded

Your not stabbing past them, basically what i think your reffering to is when the pike'r/longspear user hits you at close range by spinning. This isnt stabbing past them and then some how spinning the point back in to hit, it is simply so you dont glance at close range. If you were to do the same attack without spinning you would 90% of the time glance, but spinning makes it possible to hit the "sweet spot" which gives longspear users a chance at winning close range (which has been made much harder since the turn speed nerf). But remeber all of these "abusive" mechanics are countered by a down block.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Sloops on June 14, 2012, 10:48:20 pm
I've found that even with a high-agi longsword build fighting against a good spinner was simply a pain. You pretty much need to dodge the stab as blocking doesn't leave you much time to do anything.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Turkhammer on June 15, 2012, 04:32:14 am
wat

Devs are 2h whores?
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Turkhammer on June 15, 2012, 04:34:16 am
Your not stabbing past them, basically what i think your reffering to is when the pike'r/longspear user hits you at close range by spinning. This isnt stabbing past them and then some how spinning the point back in to hit, it is simply so you dont glance at close range. If you were to do the same attack without spinning you would 90% of the time glance, but spinning makes it possible to hit the "sweet spot" which gives longspear users a chance at winning close range (which has been made much harder since the turn speed nerf). But remeber all of these "abusive" mechanics are countered by a down block.
But, shocking as it may be, longspear users should not be winning at close range anyway.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Turkhammer on June 15, 2012, 04:35:21 am
that is crpg :P

most people want the ability to jump around like conan swinging impossibly big swords at incredible speed killing everyone instantly while all other weapon types are slow and deal next to no damage :D

Nice summary I think.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Zanze on June 15, 2012, 04:35:51 am
They shouldn't, but they prey on the incompetence of those who are so kill hungry they don't block in the ONE direction that the longspear can use...and now, they can't even do that.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Wraist on June 15, 2012, 05:24:56 am
I've found that even with a high-agi longsword build fighting against a good spinner was simply a pain. You pretty much need to dodge the stab as blocking doesn't leave you much time to do anything.

If you blocked, then you had a chance to counter attack, then block again, like everything else.

Devs, can you increase the range of the pole sweet spot, so I can hit people, without glancing, at roughly the same angles I can with a 2her?
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: robert_namo on June 15, 2012, 06:15:41 am
I can't wait till they nerf stabs!
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Kelugarn on June 15, 2012, 09:11:06 am
Ahhh Namo, just waiting until the only weapon left un-nerfed is the Namodachi.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: robert_namo on June 15, 2012, 09:52:01 am
Ahhh Namo, just waiting until the only weapon left un-nerfed is the Namodachi.
The Tale of Namo


The Namodachi has slain a countless number of men in an effort to one day have the chance to be noticed, not for its lack of speed or its three directional attacks, but for its perfect and fascinating swings of power! Everyone I encounter feels the strength of the Namodachi against their body.
No man has laughed at my ability to stun weapons with incredible ease, or slash the helmets off the Knights who think they are unstoppable. Though my clan rejects the idea of Weebos, they did not hesitate and made an exception to my weapon of choice.
Though my time with my Namodachi has been reduced ever since I adopted Habib, my Champion Arabian Warhorse, I feel like I have became a stronger man being able to use two different types of weapons and neither fails me when it matters the most.
Though one day I will stop playing and retire this game forever, My Namodachi and Habib will always be in my inventory.

read in this voice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMngjDMZTWo
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: bilwit on June 15, 2012, 07:24:35 pm
Thats the polearm version of the 2h "skills." Which if you don't already know is going 36/3, wearing plate and using a danish. Then whining when they refused to downblock during the large timeframe in which the polearm performed the helicopter circus act. Spinstabs and jumpstabs were all pikes/longspears had in the case their teammates died. Now we HAVE to switch to a 1h or 2h weapon and that is pretty damned stupid.

Pikes/Spears/Lances aren't the only polearms. As far as I'm concerned, Bec/War Spear/etc pretty much ARE 2H weapons, except you lolspin with pierce and polestagger. Even then, Pikes/etc are still effective support weapons without that neat little gimmick, you just can't really 1v1 with them which I think is the point. In any case, none of these changes are in NA sooo..
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Zanze on June 15, 2012, 08:28:15 pm
Remove the polestun from those weapons, leave it on the support weapons. Then...I'll figure out how to do that spinning bs you are all so fond of with the slower turning rate. Just keep the polestun on the support weapons, remove from the rest.

The reason I argue pikes/spears/lances the most is because they are the ones that will be most heavily affected by these nerfs. A bec will be fine as it continues to act like a 2h. A longspear that can't polestun won't be as effective in supporting. Just as a longspear that is facehugged will now be doomed as he cannot hope to fight back. If we had an overhead stab...
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 15, 2012, 08:32:45 pm
Remove the polestagger from those weapons, leave it on the support weapons. Then...I'll figure out how to do that spinning bs you are all so fond of with the slower turning rate. Just keep the polestagger on the support weapons, remove from the rest.

The reason I argue pikes/spears/lances the most is because they are the ones that will be most heavily affected by these nerfs. A bec will be fine as it continues to act like a 2h. A longspear that can't polestagger won't be as effective in supporting. Just as a longspear that is facehugged will now be doomed as he cannot hope to fight back. If we had an overhead stab...

I think the point is that if you're being facehugged and you have a weapon that is 10 feet long, you shouldn't be able to hit him....aside from maybe cross checking him like in hockey.   I dont' think it's a matter of "how do I hit him" when the guy is right up in your face...I think you either try to block til you get a teammate to help, separate the distance, or pull out a smaller weapon.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Penitent on June 15, 2012, 08:34:57 pm
Quote
Spinstabs and jumpstabs were all pikes/longspears had in the case their teammates died. Now we HAVE to switch to a 1h or 2h weapon and that is pretty damned cool.

fixed!
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Zanze on June 15, 2012, 08:36:45 pm
Huseby, I would totally agree to adding realism to the equation. However, I can only stab in one direction which means approaching me while holding your weapon down to your hip and blocking my stabs to your face is unrealistic.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 15, 2012, 08:42:05 pm
Your not stabbing past them, basically what i think your reffering to is when the pike'r/longspear user hits you at close range by spinning. This isnt stabbing past them and then some how spinning the point back in to hit, it is simply so you dont glance at close range. If you were to do the same attack without spinning you would 90% of the time glance, but spinning makes it possible to hit the "sweet spot" which gives longspear users a chance at winning close range (which has been made much harder since the turn speed nerf). But remeber all of these "abusive" mechanics are countered by a down block.

I think he is talking about when a pikeman stabs to the left or right of the enemy and when it is extended pulls it back to the enemy and hits them in the face with the side of the pike/long spear not the tip. What should be a slap in the face is actually 26 pierce to the face.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Penitent on June 15, 2012, 08:46:47 pm
I think he is talking about when a pikeman stabs to the left or right of the enemy and when it is extended pulls it back to the enemy and hits them in the face with the side of the pike/long spear not the tip. What should be a slap in the face is actually 26 pierce to the face.

This.  Also, when stabbing around doorways or other players.  The side of the shaft hits, but it counts as a stab.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 15, 2012, 10:00:33 pm
Huseby, I would totally agree to adding realism to the equation. However, I can only stab in one direction which means approaching me while holding your weapon down to your hip and blocking my stabs to your face is unrealistic.

OH right, and I'd totally advocate for that change as well.  I think another mod has overhead stabs with longer spears and lances, which would make a lot more sense than an overhead swing. 

I mistakenly thought you meant an overhead thrust would help you when someone is standing in your face...the new WotR alpha does a really nice job with the daggers.  They all stab, but there's 4 stab directions.  I'll try to take some screenshots of it later and post, but basically your character just rotates their wrists to stab in the 4 directions.  It might be a little tricky for people to detect which direction to block, but not for long spears.  It would be very obvious if the thrust is an overhead or a normal "down" thrust.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Zanze on June 15, 2012, 11:47:46 pm
Thats what I mean... right now they are taking away everything a longspear / pike has other than poking someone fighting someone else. If I had something to better defend myself from a stray enemy that rushes me, I would be fine with the changes. But as it stands, I can block and pray someone saves me because I have 0 offensive capabilities when they hold their downblock be it from a distance or close range.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Chasey on June 16, 2012, 12:25:40 am
Thats what I mean... right now they are taking away everything a longspear / pike has other than poking someone fighting someone else. If I had something to better defend myself from a stray enemy that rushes me, I would be fine with the changes. But as it stands, I can block and pray someone saves me because I have 0 offensive capabilities when they hold their downblock be it from a distance or close range.

There are still many tricks you can use and most still work even with the turn speed change, the only major problem atm is the hit detection but other than that if you are a decent longspear user you should still do some what fine in 1v1's.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Bulzur on June 16, 2012, 12:31:51 am
Just can't manage to hit someone with my longspear anymore, it just feel like it goes "through" him, before bouncing on the ground, or just being ineffective.
Funniest one being after an easy kick, i couldn't even thrust at the guy...

Guess i'll have to practice the stupid timing, if the guy feints even once, i'm screwed. And at that moment, 50% of the players feints... while the other 45% hold attacks. (and of course, there's the 5% new players).
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Penitent on June 16, 2012, 12:43:52 am
Just can't manage to hit someone with my longspear anymore, it just feel like it goes "through" him, before bouncing on the ground, or just being ineffective.
Funniest one being after an easy kick, i couldn't even thrust at the guy...

I think if you are in kick range you shouldn't be able to thrust them with a long spear.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Zanze on June 16, 2012, 01:11:49 am
I'll take your word for it Chase.
Title: Re: Spinning around with polearms
Post by: Bulzur on June 16, 2012, 01:15:09 am
I think if you are in kick range you shouldn't be able to thrust them with a long spear.

I definitely was able to before, with 6 athletics, and without jumping.