cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on June 04, 2012, 08:36:23 pm
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I want to hear your opinion.
1 - the best
4 - the worst
1) Crushthrough
2) Knockdown
3) Polestagger
4) Bonus against shields
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I agree with your set up, though a wep with crushthrough needs to be either heavy or you have to have a str build to use it, preferably both.
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1) Crushthrough (its the best modifier, but is only on shit weapons)
2) Bonus against shields (saves a lot of time, so you can get on to other tasks. Also breaks doors/constructions)
3) Knockdown (triggers often enough to be almost useful)
4) Polestagger (rare enough to not be noticed)
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Crushthrough is the one that feels most like bullshit when it hits you. And on top of that you will probably get knocked down since all the crush weapons are heavy and have knockdown...
Polestun is better on faster weapons. Shortened spear and quarterstaff can really juggle people around. OOF UAGH OOF OOF
edit: I am a dumby. Thanks for the correction. Shortened spear does polestun, quarterstaff does not.
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I agree with the OP's list but don't forget about "unbalanced".
If "crushthrough" is worth +4 points to a weapon's value then "unbalanced" is worth at least -2.
Which is incidentally why you don't see any (sensible) infantry wielding 2H axes. Unbalanced + shieldbreaker = net negative to the weapon's value.
This is also why a lot of knockdown weapons are more popular than crushthrough weapons. Knockdown + balanced > crushthrough + unbalanced, unless you can operate with a team so you don't have to parry so much.
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polestagger is better on faster weapons. Shortened spear and quarterstaff can really juggle people around. OOF UAGH OOF OOF
Quarterstaff doesn't have the stagger...
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I want to hear your opinion.
1 - the best
4 - the worst
1) Crushthrough
2) Knockdown
3) Polestagger
4) Bonus against shields
Add polestun
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Quarterstaff doesn't have the stagger...
This.
Blunt weapons have knockdown chance, even if it's minimal.
But no stagger effect.
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Polestagger is best and I would have picked shield breakers next but they're always unbalanced so it's not worth it. Crushthrough for trolling and knockdown goes hand in hand with crushthrough. But by far is the best are balanced weapons cuz doOlz are bestest
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If "crushthrough" is worth +4 points to a weapon's value then "unbalanced" is worth at least -2.
We're discussing here only those modifiers which increase usefulness of a weapon, not those that descrease it (like unsheatable, unbalanced, can't use on horseback etc.)
My opinion on unbalanced is: I don't like to use unbalanced weapons but I also don't think it's a big downside. They usually have positive modifier attached to them which outweights negative sides of a weapon being unbalanced.
Having no modifiers is actually worse than having unbalanced and knockdown, at least in my book.
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This.
Blunt weapons have knockdown chance, even if it's minimal.
But no stagger effect.
spears do blunt and still stagger
polearms with bonus vs shield have stagger too right? and all crush thru have knockdown. its only polearms with knockdown which don't stagger I think.
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Not all shieldbreakers are unbalanced....
sheesh ya'll act like 1h weapons don't exist....
:)
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its only polearms with knockdown which don't stagger I think.
This. That's why spears stagger on blunt swings but quarter staff doesn't
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As long as it looks cool
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To truly judge each of the modifiers, you have to think of the way they work with each of the weapon classes individually.
Obviously only polearms get the stagger, and honestly it's the best modifier for them. A close second being bonus against shields, because the weapons that use it are generally quite good. Knockdown eliminates the chance of polestagger, so it's far less useful considering it gives nearly the same result but happens far less often. There's only one crushthrough polearm, so whether this is good depends on how you feel about the long maul. I am not a fan.
For 2handers, their crushthrough weapons can be simply unstoppable in certain circumstances. Their knockdown weapons, while not very popular, are actually quite decent (some of which also have crushthrough!). Their bonus against shield weapons are mostly bad, with few exceptions, and all of them (save the fighting axe's alternate mode) are unbalanced.
1handers have some very good bonus against shield weapons, and a handful of moderately decent knockdown weapons. I'd say it's a tie for them, with bonus against shields possibly edging knockdown out by a smidge.
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Knockdown = 2-3 free hits.
Stagger = maybe 1 free hit.
Can't really compare.
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Not all shieldbreakers are unbalanced....
sheesh ya'll act like 1h weapons don't exist....
:)
Also my long bardiche and long war axe have bonus against shield, they are not unbalanced (and are sheathable).
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Knockdown = 2-3 free hits.
Stagger = maybe 1 free hit.
Can't really compare.
Stagger happens on 50% of all damaging polearm hits. Half. Knockdown happens far less than that, and affords you one free hit unless you've got an extremely fast weapon, which all tend to have low damage, assuming you don't exploit it to kick the person on the ground afterwards. It's easier to hit a person standing than a person on the ground as well.
It's also worth noting that the polearms with knockdown are arguably not the best of weapons in their class.
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assuming you don't exploit it to kick the person on the ground afterwards.
That's why knockdown give 2 or more extra hits. One when he's on the ground (maybe 2 if you're using one of the shorter maces), one with a kick-slash when he tries to get up, and who knows if you might knock him down again after the kickslash and continue the cycle. Knockdown > Stagger
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That's why knockdown give 2 or more extra hits. One when he's on the ground (maybe 2 if you're using one of the shorter maces), one with a kick-slash when he tries to get up, and who knows if you might knock him down again after the kickslash and continue the cycle. Knockdown > Stagger
Alright, but I'm just considering polearms here, and most of the knockdown polearms are not very good weapons in comparison to other polearms. If you're talking 1handers or 2handers (shorter maces?), obviously they can't even have stagger so that comparison is purely academic.
It's also possible to get chain staggers, which is far more likely to happen than repeat knockdowns (which afaik can only happen if you do the kick maneuver, since you can't knock a downed person down until they get back up). And like I said, you don't have to adjust your positioning or your aim whatsoever upon a stagger, it's easier to hit them, but if you knock someone down you have to be more on-the-ball.
I have managed to kick someone after a stagger-hit before, as well.
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I agree with the OP's order.
Though i really hate the knockdown, maybe more than the crushthrough, since it's more random. Being knockdown while wearing full plate, and only loosing 1% of life, by a 1h mace wielded by an archer is really...infuriating.
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Polestagger stunlock is the dirtiest.
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You also can't stagger someone who's in a stagger, so because of the kick I'd say you're actually more likely to get knocked down several times in a row.
And staffs are pretty great. Especially the Quarterstaff is an amazing wep for 1-slot, the main reason I didn't use it on my archer alts was that it blocked the screen.
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Stagger happens on 50% of all damaging polearm hits. Half. Knockdown happens far less than that, and affords you one free hit unless you've got an extremely fast weapon, which all tend to have low damage, assuming you don't exploit it to kick the person on the ground afterwards. It's easier to hit a person standing than a person on the ground as well.
It's also worth noting that the polearms with knockdown are arguably not the best of weapons in their class.
AFAIK, the polestagger that results in the inability to block is only around 30%.
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AFAIK, the polestagger that results in the inability to block is only around 30%.
On a normal hit(1h, 2h) strike and strike2 animations are called. They got a duration of about 0.5 to 0.6s depending on hit location. They are the same as in Native and can be checked with the Native MS in the animations.py. On a polearm hit there is a 50% chance that strike3 are called instead and they got a duration of 0.8 to 1s. The code says that polearms with the knockdown flag never call the strike3 animation.
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Polestagger is 50% yeah, but you're not going to get a free hit in every time it happens.
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Polestagger is 50% yeah, but you're not going to get a free hit in every time it happens.
Since we're talking theoretical situations, the same can be said for knockdown, especially now that there's ground collision. Yeah, you might not hit again on a stagger, but you can do it reliably, even with fairly slow weapons. They're both a matter of particulars.
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I just hate polestagger, i find it ridicolous. I didnt rly see why it was needed.
I find it a little op.
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Even as someone who uses polearms when on foot, I don't ever notice pole stagger when I hit people...but I guess I typically don't try to swing as soon as I've just released my swing, I'm usually ready to block (because I'm assuming my hit will be blocked since weapon speeds are so slow and there's only 4 block directions).
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Polestagger is 50% yeah, but you're not going to get a free hit in every time it happens.
I beg to differ. On occasion, and not rarely, I see some poor bastard standing there with his pants down after I've hit him. And when it chains, also not all that hard, it's lights out.
Even worse is getting hit by a pissant spear.
It is a stupid mechanic.
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Even worse is getting hit by a pissant spear.
Yeah, the fact that no factors determine polestagger occuring, it is annoying to get polestaggered on a glance. However it is only really bad when getting glance staggered then have a str build run up and overhand you while you have your pants down.
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Remove polestagger and nerf 2h animations ghost reach
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Polestagger should be dependent on something...like your weight vs your opponents weight or something.
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Since we're talking theoretical situations, the same can be said for knockdown, especially now that there's ground collision. Yeah, you might not hit again on a stagger, but you can do it reliably, even with fairly slow weapons. They're both a matter of particulars.
When you say reliably, what approximitly do you think it would be? 60%
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When you say reliably, what approximitly do you think it would be? 60%
Assuming you've just attacked your enemy and the hit triggered a stagger, if you're preparing your next attack immediately you should always be able to land another hit without them being able to block it unless you miss, glance or something(someone) gets in your way. If your weapon is extremely slow (like 85 or lower with moderate wpf) they might make the block in time.
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Paul said there is a 50% probability of poles staggering. That DOES NOT MEAN that half of all hits will stagger, its possible to go 10 hits without staggering, likewise it possible to chain 10 staggers, its probability, not a counter.
With that in mind, and all other annoyances:
CRUSHTHROUGH is most powerful, by far and away. Player using crushthrough 1v1 against good player is probably gonna get spammed if he tries to overhead. But since only a tool uses a maul 1v1 against non-peasants, lets present the context where you really see it being effective: Deep in melee, either heavy field combat or urban/indoor combat, you edge into the fight, block a bit, strike a few guys, stab an enemy out of your path, next guy up has a maul. Your options:
1/ You cant go back, since your teammates invariably hug your back (CURSE the fuckers!)
2/ leftswing and rightswing spam is out, cause of walls, teammates, and enemies in the way.
3/ You can go for stab, if you have stab, or JUST overhead.
3/a) Overhead. With a large weapon, thats it, your dead: You hit the teammate behind you's shield, the maul flattened your head, you go down in heavy melee, unless heroic shielder steps over you (I SELDOM see this, but always do it: teammate goes down and you have shield, SAVE THE FUCKER, its not science, hes your friend, shield him while is defenceless you fucks, cmon) and takes the next maul hit, your dead.
3/b) Stab. You go for the stab. Usually one of 2 things happens. 1/ You whiff, cause mauler with STR build, he wears plate and he likes it, thats his thing. You whiff, he doesnt, your dead. or 2/ The intelligent mauler knows its gonna be stab cause you cant swing at him, so he sees it, chambers it with overhead, crushes your dreams and head. Your dead.
4/ You hesitate for a second, one of the OVER NINE THOUSAND pikes takes a shot at you, you downblock, maul crushes your face.
There is no other options when locked in a melee, crushthrough is by far the most powerful weapon modifier, add to crush the fact that crush comes packaged with knockdown....your fucked.
Bonus vs shields and knockdown...both are counterable: Your enemy pops an axe out, you slip shield onto your back, he pulls out a spammy knockdown, you can just block, with or without shield, and just be careful about timeing so you dont get hit.
I usually play in low armour, so I'm 1hit to everything with few exceptions. S key heroes with high AGI usually kill me, but having no armour makes you apreciate things properly: Knockdown doesnt matter if the hit kills you, bonus vs shields doesnt matter if you can block, polestun is stupidly overpowered on already ridiculously too fast/dmg poleaxes but still requires that they HIT you. But when you are deep in the fight, the one thing that cannot be defeated is crush. In some nice space, sure, maulers are commiting suicide facing up to me 1v1, but of course every weapon has a place: I dont take my spear indoors, I dont fight off horses with my sword, I only use my shield when being shot at. I wouldnt take a bow into melee. Likewise a maul belongs at the back of the wolfpack, but when its in it's correct place, wielded by a decent player, its pure murder, there is no fighting it.
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1) Crushthrough
2) Knockdown
3) Polestagger
4) Bonus against shields
5)Damage