cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Tot. on May 29, 2012, 01:28:03 pm

Title: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tot. on May 29, 2012, 01:28:03 pm
How often will it bounce off torso hits medium armored targets with 5 ps and 105 wpf, no speed bonus?
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: [ptx] on May 29, 2012, 01:30:28 pm
Quite a bit. If you do perfect hits, it won't bounce (pierce, afterall), but pike/longspear just works better/is more reliable with high PS, rather than low. Random damage doesn't help either and a glance with a pike/longspear often means a dead you.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tot. on May 29, 2012, 01:32:05 pm
So would you say that 6 ps would make a big difference?

BTW. This is intended as secondary, support weapon, hence low wpf.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: [ptx] on May 29, 2012, 01:35:13 pm
Well, 6PS is quite useable already. But, as a secondary weapon, you might try even with 5PS, if it's loomed.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Joseph Porta on May 29, 2012, 01:40:00 pm
I always use a Bamboo spear and I have 5 PS, I do fine most of the times but then again I choose for a bamboooooooooo spear for the length, shorter then a pike but for me way more maneouvreable(...idk how to spell it cba to google it. xD) and because im closer to the target i can poke more precisely yet keeping a decent distance, :) thats my personal experience and i'm new btw but I just thought i'd throw it out here :D

Edit: I noticed that my polearm wpf is way higher so i think that also makes me poke right more often.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tot. on May 29, 2012, 01:47:27 pm
Edit: I noticed that my polearm wpf is way higher so i think that also makes me poke right more often.

Estimated damage:

150 wpf, 5 ps, 50 enemy body armor

    Minimum: 6
    Average: 13.5
    Maximum: 21


105 wpf, 5 ps, 50 enemy body armor

      Minimum: 3
    Average: 10.5
    Maximum: 18

That's really crap damage anyways to be honest.

Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: [ptx] on May 29, 2012, 01:51:57 pm
3 would be a glance, at least against some with some IF. But then again, you usually can work to get at least some speed bonus with these weapons.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Joseph Porta on May 29, 2012, 01:56:24 pm
Estimated damage:

150 wpf, 5 ps, 50 enemy body armor

    Minimum: 6
    Average: 13.5
    Maximum: 21


105 wpf, 5 ps, 50 enemy body armor

      Minimum: 3
    Average: 10.5
    Maximum: 18

That's really crap damage anyways to be honest.

I see I still have alot to learn xD
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Ronin on May 29, 2012, 02:27:34 pm
I think you are capable to produce interesting thoughts, you just need some experience.
1- For getting some actual results, go and try.
2- But before than that, go and try it statistically in the damage calculators.

You'll be fine mate :wink:
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Turboflex on May 29, 2012, 03:36:02 pm
I have a 15/24 pikeman alt that I play as support mostly, sitting behind infantry and thrusting at targets of opportunity. I wear light mail (mail shirt) and use my athletics, and jumps to generate speed bonus.

I find overall its very effective, and I get a very nice amount of kills and even more assists from stunning people to set them up for a killshot by some str juicehead. The 8 athletics and light armour lets me rove behind the line easily, switching up targets, and backing out of trouble if someone rushes me.

The other style of being more of a "duelist" pikeman, wearing plate and defending yourself with fancy spin moves, not worrying about being on the frontline would definitely be more effective with a STR build.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Digglez on May 29, 2012, 04:23:30 pm
Longspear & pike are support weapons.  You need speed to get to where you are needed.  9 times out of 10, someone will be charging AT you, so you have awesome speed bonuses.

Aim for heads or feet if they are wearing shitty gear.

15/21 & 15/24 are best builds IMO.  Nearly all of NH spears use one of those 2.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Joseph Porta on May 29, 2012, 04:25:46 pm
Making half spins while thrusting your spear also gives speed bonus', right?
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Malke on May 29, 2012, 04:27:11 pm
I use 21/15 7ps 7if 5ag 5wm 5riding The riding is just for fun I suppose. I use a Longspear exclusively. Put a nice spin into your thrusts and it should hit home.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Turboflex on May 29, 2012, 05:05:43 pm
Making half spins while thrusting your spear also gives speed bonus', right?

half jump-spins, even 360 jump-spins generate a lot of speed bonus, even simple non-jump u-turn moves, longspear is better at it than pike, there are some very deadly longspear duelists (a lot of people never really figure out their predictable, but tricky, patterns). But if you are playing support though, standing in formation behind friendly infantry and picking up people rushing into attack them (in which case, the extra range of pike vs longspear is the better support weapon), you wouldn't be using these moves a lot except in desperation if your line was collapsing, you'd be picking targets and using relative speed bonus, as Diggles said, aim for headshots, or feet (if they are doing something like wearing metal body armour but leather boots, like a lot of infantry do).
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Vibe on May 29, 2012, 05:18:53 pm
Making half spins while thrusting your spear also gives speed bonus', right?

no

half jump-spins, even 360 jump-spins generate a lot of speed bonus, even simple non-jump u-turn moves, longspear is better at it than pike, there are some very deadly longspear duelists (a lot of people never really figure out their predictable, but tricky, patterns). But if you are playing support though, standing in formation behind friendly infantry and picking up people rushing into attack them (in which case, the extra range of pike vs longspear is the better support weapon), you wouldn't be using these moves a lot except in desperation if your line was collapsing, you'd be picking targets and using relative speed bonus, as Diggles said, aim for headshots, or feet (if they are doing something like wearing metal body armour but leather boots, like a lot of infantry do).

no

just spinning does NOT give you any speedbonus at all
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Joseph Porta on May 29, 2012, 05:36:20 pm
no

no

just spinning does NOT give you any speedbonus at all

So only jumping towards your target does?

And I did mean a combination of a spin and making a forward movement, still no effect with the forward movement?
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Vibe on May 29, 2012, 05:42:56 pm
So only jumping towards your target does?

And I did mean a combination of a spin and making a forward movement, still no effect with the forward movement?

Speed bonus is just how fast both you and your enemy collide, it can be while jumping, running, on a horse... etc

So the most speed bonus you can get is when you and your enemy are moving towards eachother and the least when your enemy is moving away and you hit him while you are also backpedaling away from him.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Joseph Porta on May 29, 2012, 06:11:48 pm
Speed bonus is just how fast both you and your enemy collide, it can be while jumping, running, on a horse... etc

So the most speed bonus you can get is when you and your enemy are moving towards eachother and the least when your enemy is moving away and you hit him while you are also backpedaling away from him.

I see I see, now to implement it in the game!
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zanze on May 30, 2012, 03:29:45 pm
If you are going to pike or longspear(recommended) for pure support I HIGHLY recommend a 15/24 build. Put all your points into polewpf, GET WEAPON MASTER. IT MATTERS. Trust me on this, you want weapon master for the longspear. That extra bleh second will help you block overheads if you miss or hit the ground or do something stupid. Also, with about 140ish wpf you will hit almost as hard as 6 PS and 111 wpf anyways.

Now, lets keep this clear. With 5 powerstrike, YOU WILL glance...if you are not moving. Take advantage of the small point of the weapon and its slowness to maximize your speed bonus and aim for head or feet if they have crap armor. ALWAYS be moving, even if its a side to side disco. This will keep your opponent offguard, annoy him because he is most likely a str crutcher in comparison to you, and allow you a quick getaway or easy jumpstab. Just remember you have 8 ath and they most likely have 5, if even that. Abuse that difference and run circles around them.

I won't say using the longspear is easy, but it will take a VERY long time to get used to the weapon. You need to abuse your speed bonus as it is what will most make this weapon "OP" in the eyes of other. Abusing the acceleration from 8 ath is the difference between glancing on a plated dude, or killing him in about 2-4 hits from full hp.

In a team setting, pick someone and follow him. That is your anchor. You will also be helping him if you do something else, such as turning around and stabbing an enemy going for another teammate. Turn back around and support your anchor, if he dies, it is your fault in 99% of situations and you must replace him/her ASAP. Try and stay to the right of him is something i've heard helps, but I personally don't mind either side.

The better you get at supporting, the further away you can get from your anchor and the more teammates you can help at once. The more ath you have, obviously the faster you can move out to help a teammate and return before someone notices you. You should not be blocking, that is the purpose of the anchor, or human shield. If you do have to block, block once and run past the enemy. Jump and turn and stab them and return to your anchor. If you are alone, block until either the enemy gets bored or you see a chance to escape and outrun him.

Patience.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Bulzur on May 30, 2012, 06:18:52 pm
24/15.

When you manage to pike someone by surprise, it damages them enough that they loose their focus.
Also, it enables a 2-3 hits to kill horses. With this, no unarmored horses have escaped. And no riders either.
With the 5 WM points all in polearm, you're still fast enough to be able to thrust TWICE at an dehorsed cav, if he didn't go too far.

I love it.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: [ptx] on May 30, 2012, 06:25:34 pm
High str builds also can defend themselves in 1v1 most of the time with a pike, since you don't glance nowhere near as much.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 30, 2012, 06:53:04 pm
Personally, for a pikeman/spearman class I think 15/21 or 15/24 is more than enough agility, and not enough str.

I'd much rather be 21/15 or 24/15.  5 athletics is good enough to get around the battlefield.  Having 7 or 8 PS is much better than 5.

Bamboo spear is a support weapon, mainly for stopping cavalry, or fighting with a teammate or two and just keep poking an enemy ground troop from a distance while your teammates close the gap.  So the damage dealt isn't really that big of a deal..it's a great support weapon.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: dodnet on May 30, 2012, 07:29:06 pm
Bamboo spear is a support weapon, mainly for stopping cavalry

I find the bamboo spear too short against (good) cav. When stopping a horse I sometimes get hit with my long spear if my timing is bad, with the much shorter bamboo spear it gets even worse. Pike on the other side is way too inaccurate and slow. I hit a lot of teammates with this, much more than usually  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tanken on May 30, 2012, 07:30:56 pm
Whoa whoa whoa.

OP

Ignore all comments above mine and just come hang out with KUTT for 2 days. You will have Builds and an understanding of your weapon.

Those who say you need Weapon Mastery for a Pike or Long Spear -- Wrong. I put 40 points of wpf into my Polearms and I go full pike or long spear build and put the rest into my sidearm.

Also, those who say you need 15/24 or 15/21 builds .. Sure, if you want to glance a lot and not use the Pike / Long Spear as intended. What you NEED to focus on is High Power Strike. I went 42/3 recently for shits-n-giggles and had 14 Power Strike. Lord almighty, I one-hit (just about) everything with a Masterwork Long Spear.

While the additional agility is okay... it's not necessary. If you can block and you can get used to the delay between striking and then being able to put up a block, you'll do fine.

Like I said though, just come to NA server and hang out with KUTT or just head to the duel server with me, I'll show you everything you need to know about both weapons and the builds that work best for all occasions!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 30, 2012, 07:35:25 pm
IMO, every single melee infantry class needs at least 9 agility (for 3 athletics).  Less than that and you're a sitting target.  I can see getting by with 1 athletics if you have a weapon that swings more than 2 directions, but you need some agility to get into position for the strike with a pike.  With 1 athletics, what do you do when someone closes the gap?  You can't do a jumping/spinning lol-stab with 1 athletics unless you're fighting a retard.

Playing with KUTT would be good for spearman/pikemen help, but I wouldn't get it from tanken (after reading his post) :P
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tanken on May 30, 2012, 07:37:24 pm
IMO, every single melee infantry class needs at least 9 agility (for 3 athletics).  Less than that and you're a sitting target.  I can see getting by with 1 athletics if you have a weapon that swings more than 2 directions, but you need some agility to get into position for the strike.  With 1 athletics, what do you do when someone closes the gap?  You can't do a jumping/spinning lol-stab with 1 athletics unless you're fighting a retard.


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I actually had 0 Athletics and can do the exact same amount of Jump-Spin stabs and the same amount of maneuverability (albeit I can't run as fast or catch archers) but in a team-fight I'd prefer anywhere from 36/3 up to 42/3 any day. Athletics and WPM for a Pikeman is absolutely unnecessary. You can fight anyone with 0 Athletics and a Pike/Long Spear if you know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tanken on May 30, 2012, 07:41:05 pm
Playing with KUTT would be good for spearman/pikemen help, but I wouldn't get it from tanken (after reading his post) :P

^

But that's because I will only teach my ways to already-experienced users and then make them even better!
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: [ptx] on May 30, 2012, 07:52:55 pm
I can see how a fullstr build could work, if you got reliable teammates(clanmates) working with you. Playing solo with random pubbies, though, you will want at least some athlethics. A 24/15 or a 21/18 build might be the most universal.

I once did a 9/30 dedicated long spear build (back when it had 9 str requirement), with 3PS and 10athl/wm. It was the most horrible gen ever.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Digglez on May 30, 2012, 07:55:31 pm
KUTT spear builds are so slow enemy shielders can wade in and assassinate you with ease, which we do on a regular frequent basis.  Different story for someone with 7 athletics, they are in and out of your range as a 1h too fast before you can get a good swing.

Strength spear builds are selfish and generally die easily against decent team.  Plus you dont have option to use a shield and hoplite if needed
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Gurnisson on May 30, 2012, 08:01:04 pm
21/18, full WM, PS and Ath. My favourite by far and I believe Chase used that too. It gives you very good damage coupled with good maneuverability.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 30, 2012, 08:02:43 pm
True story.  It's fun using my long bardiche with only 6 athletics.  I can maneuver so that I'm swinging at least 2 times for every time the enemy can get within range of me.  I could see having higher athletics and being able to almost constantly stay out of enemy melee range with a length over 140-150.

So you do have a point with you 15/21 or 15/24 builds for pikemen.  I think it comes down to preference and how you will be using your character (as most things in cRPG do).  I think we'd both agree anything less than 3 athletics would be painful to play.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tanken on May 30, 2012, 08:03:45 pm
KUTT spear builds are so slowawesome enemy shieldersNH Turtlers can wade in and assassinatedo nothing to you with ease, which we do on a regular frequent basis.  Different story for someone with 7 athletics, they are in and out of your range as a 1h too fast before you can get a good swing.Unless of course you are Tanken and embarrass Turtlers with ease.

Strength spear builds are selfish and generally die easily against decent team.  Plus you dont have option to use a shield and hoplite if needed

Let me know when I encounter a Decent Team  :rolleyes:

I think we'd both agree anything less than 3 athletics would be painful to play.

It's definitely not for everyone, but those with the patience to master it will find it extremely rewarding. You can thwart anyone with this build if you spend enough time with it. The best part is I never even had to wear heavy armor with this build to do good, and still don't.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: MacLeod_ on May 30, 2012, 08:13:06 pm
KUTT spear builds are so slow enemy shielders can wade in and assassinate you with ease, which we do on a regular frequent basis.  Different story for someone with 7 athletics, they are in and out of your range as a 1h too fast before you can get a good swing.

Strength spear builds are selfish and generally die easily against decent team.  Plus you dont have option to use a shield and hoplite if needed

KUTT spears do not need speed because you are dead from my xbow and kick slashes before you even get a chance to fight them.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Smoothrich on May 30, 2012, 08:40:13 pm
I think the lesson the OP of this thread should get here is that anything from 15/24 to 30-9 and beyond is viable with an absurdly sized 360 insta polestagger pike/long spear, what matters most is your playstyle.  I would recommend 21/18 or 18/21 to start, though, and max IF over WM.  See if you think you are too slow or too weak for your playstyle and go from there
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tanken on May 30, 2012, 08:45:56 pm
I think Smooth kinda sums it up, as well as what Huseby said.

What really matters is how you plan to use it. If you're looking at using this build a lot in Strategus and Team-Settings, then focus more on Strength. If you find that you are going to be soloing a lot without backup or minimal backup, put a little more agility in it. Personally I would definitely try to keep your strength above 21, just so you still have that kill-power.


You're really going to have to learn the different techniques associated with each possible build though, so be prepared to have your ass handed to you for a few days until you learn it. The best technique for a high agility build I've found is to either Strike, then immediately run facing away from them then turn around and attack again, almost like you're doing a Figure-8. It contains them and sometimes will confuse them. The next step would be to engage, swipe past, prepare your attack, jump, release, and spin it into them.


You'll find a lot of fun things you can do with it, but to be clear as to why I choose higher strength...
You have a 1-directional weapon here that you plan to use. The chances of you successfully and time-efficiently striking 3-4 blows on a 15/24 build without assistance are minimal. I like to capitalize on the amount of output in damage I can do with those one or two chances I may get to land on them.

I would also read Caita's guide to Pike and Long Spear usage. He really put together a great collaborative guide on how to properly use these types of spears and you may be surprised to find something in there that will help you a LOT.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25312.0.html
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 30, 2012, 08:56:28 pm
what happened to caita?
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zanze on May 30, 2012, 09:05:36 pm
KUTT spears do not need speed because you are dead from my xbow and kick slashes before you even get a chance to fight them.

Seems KUTT forgot their scrim vs NH where we routinely killed their longspears. Over. And over. And Over.

Oh well, but to each his own. I find I can 3shot most people with 5PS so I don't really believe I need to strength crutch. Though, that may simply be an NA habit. I personally enjoy being able to choose my fights and catching archers and such.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Tanken on May 30, 2012, 09:35:15 pm
Seems KUTT forgot their scrim vs NH where we routinely killed their longspears. Over. And over. And Over.

Oh well, but to each his own. I find I can 3shot most people with 5PS so I don't really believe I need to strength crutch. Though, that may simply be an NA habit. I personally enjoy being able to choose my fights and catching archers and such.

The only one who even did ANYTHING in that Scrim was Argoth Mondaren, and he wasn't even an NH member so GG.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 30, 2012, 10:06:33 pm
I'll post this pic for tank burner (to be used in his previous post):

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Bulzur on May 30, 2012, 10:37:45 pm
21/18, full WM, PS and Ath. My favourite by far and I believe Chase used that too. It gives you very good damage coupled with good maneuverability.

This is the plan.
But i have to stick with a 24/15 for now, since my longspear isn't masterworked yet.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Bazinga on May 31, 2012, 11:36:59 pm
I tried something different, I went for 13 / 27 with 4 PS, 9 Ath, 8 Wm. Works surprisingly well, you're incredibly fast on the battlefield and can support a very wide reach of teammates. It also kills alot, just because of your speed and maneuvering.
It's not an easy build to use, because you gotta hit the enemy right in the sweet sport, otherwise you WILL glance. But if you can master it, you're one deadly supportive pikeman.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Korrupted on June 01, 2012, 02:04:46 am
I really enjoyed 18/21 with long spear. Fast enough I can usually 2 shot people as there stunned and its king in cluster fucks where you can pick off people and wade in and out with 7ath.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zanze on June 01, 2012, 02:06:24 am
18/21 with max WM is what im trying this gen. Freaking. Awesome. 2 shots are cake, especially with head hits.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Beauchamp on June 01, 2012, 01:34:38 pm
conclusion: any build is fine  :D
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 02, 2012, 04:09:51 pm
I'd suggest 6 or even 7 PS but no wpf, also a longspear instead of a pike, sticking it inbetween allies is a lot easier with low wpf, but unlike a pike the longspear don't get stunned for ages if you glance/are blocked.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: belm on June 03, 2012, 02:08:25 pm
Well I'm playing with long spear all the time.
I started with 21str/18agi build and I can say it was good choice. You can wear medium / heavy armor and do decent damage.
After a while I've realized that for pole (long spear) medium armor (40+) is enough and you can survive with few decent blocks.
Don't forget that you are support and you have only one attack - thrust.

so far Im experimenting with two build types:
- 30 agi/ 9 str (10 athletics)
well this build is like: "they cant hit you because you are Speedy Gonzales" your damage output is not very good but for some people your speed is just annoying - you can maintain distance while doing dmg.
Very very funny build.
- Haven't noticed bounces at all.

- 30 str/ 9 agi (right now - 10 ps)
well this is tank build, with 78 HP (I think). You can take 4 - 5 hits and still be the one who survives.
so far I can execute most mediums just with two hits, lights armored targets are one thrust deal.
The problem are heavy armored - shield wearing people so I have to kick very often.
So far the biggest issue are team hits.

I can say that long spear is good weapon BUT! you have to pick your targets carefully and also you always have to be in group with 1 - 2 people:
- you + 1 - 2 friendly = enemy can't attack but have to block
- you + 3(+) friendly = you cant thrust, there is too many people around

Also note that you will be the first target - all people seems to hate long spears / pikes so they will ignore others and attack you instead.
And also prepare that you will hear many people crying that long spears are too OP.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Roran Hawkins on June 03, 2012, 05:16:10 pm
I'm making hybrid pole/1h'er designed for the longspear, but am doubting between 2 builds:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 66
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 0
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 91
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 140
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1


+1wpm-1athl

or this


Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 66
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 0
Athletics: 6
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 90
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 130
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Smoothrich on June 03, 2012, 05:54:05 pm
max athletics, max IF, put 3 (or whatevers left) in WM, ~~ pro build

highest priority for maxing stats in infantry build is PS and Athletics by far, then imo IF before WM.  Having a few extra HP will get you more kills then .00001 more damage/swing speed.

you can do 110 polearm 80-90 1hand and be just fine with 3 WM, with a long spear type weapon you definitely don't need more than 110
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Digglez on June 03, 2012, 06:06:02 pm
max athletics, max IF, put 3 (or whatevers left) in WM, ~~ pro build

highest priority for maxing stats in infantry build is PS and Athletics by far, then imo IF before WM.  Having a few extra HP will get you more kills then .00001 more damage/swing speed.

you can do 110 polearm 80-90 1hand and be just fine with 3 WM, with a long spear type weapon you definitely don't need more than 110

If you want to be a longspear, commit to it, dont do that 1h puss out shit.  The GOOD spearman dont drop their weapon for a sidearm, they wait for enemy to make mistake and kill them.  Getting WPF above 130~ means you are a true danger to anyone on the battlefield, even if they single you out to try and take you out first.  Getting your WPF up above 130 means you can recover from missed stabs/accidentally hitting ground or glancing in time to block attacks. 
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: dreadnok on June 03, 2012, 06:41:13 pm
its a piece of shit class anyway that's gone in wor anyway
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Roran Hawkins on June 03, 2012, 06:48:58 pm
If you want to be a longspear, commit to it, dont do that 1h puss out shit.  The GOOD spearman dont drop their weapon for a sidearm, they wait for enemy to make mistake and kill them.  Getting WPF above 130~ means you are a true danger to anyone on the battlefield, even if they single you out to try and take you out first.  Getting your WPF up above 130 means you can recover from missed stabs/accidentally hitting ground or glancing in time to block attacks.

I have the 1h for other occasions, like siege maps or when engaged by spammers.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zanze on June 03, 2012, 07:31:35 pm
Just for the record, the speed bonus of wpf is crap ill admit, but for weapons that have low base damage (long spear / pike) wpf scales very nicely.

I chose to stack 7 WM instead of 7 IF and according to both available calculators hit a bit harder than if I had 21 str, 7 PS, and 111 wpf in poles. I know I could just go with the 7 IF/PS and get roughly 130wpf and do about the same damage with more health but I prefer the non-repairs as well. The wpf also helps nicely when I use non-longspear/pike weapons. polestagger people to death all the time.

I agree with Diggles on the whole sidearms are crap. If you truly know how to use the weapon you can fight 99% of people with it. Granted, the other 1% know to hold their downblock or chamber you're thrust and will destroy you, but you should be able to get at least ONE good hit on them and then run to find a teammate or a better weapon. (If last player alive, drop your pike/LS)

I also heavily prefer the 7 ath over 6, or 8 over both, because I hate being inches away from rearing that horse and missing the only chance in half the round to kill it. Or watching my teammate die a few steps away because I was too slow. I don't generally care about kills as much as winning the multi, so if I go 0-5 because I couldn't get a concrete kill I'll be happy when we win. The Templar Siege on Reyvadin that brought Longspears? Every time I pressed LMB I hit someone. However, they all had Heraldic Transitional Armor and were fresh out of their spawn. I wasn't killing much, but pole staggering them in the middle of 4-5 of my kill hungry teammates definitely was.

Just keep in mind, you are a support class not a 2 handed hero.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Relit on June 09, 2012, 02:41:58 am
I literally pulled myself back from Valhalla, just to post in this thread:

STR builds for a dedicated spear/pikeman are for SOLO play. They are to slow to keep up with the battle line. A spear/pikeman's job is to support the infantry. Everything they do should be anchored around a specific "battlebuddy", with high agility/ATH you can maneuver around the battlefield to do your job: Support.

A 18/18 or 18/21 is a decent build, that Ive personally worked with, it suffers from a slight lack of speed.

Also on the topic of sidearms for spear/pikemen: They weigh you down too much and with enough practice, you wont need one.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: ShinySpoons on June 10, 2012, 12:17:39 pm
The main benefit of a sidearm is it makes you look and feel more badass. My favourite is the Grosse Messer. Style points. Gotta go for them.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zerran on June 29, 2012, 11:18:07 pm
Damn it, I leave for a while and miss a great thread.

Anyway, might be a bit late but here's my input:

1. Don't underestimate a good sidearm, especially if you're using a pike. Don't listen to the BS about sidearms not being useful. There are situations where a pike/longspear is simply not a good option, and having a good sidearm can really save your ass. If you get the hang of switching between your pike and sidearm at the right times, it can net you some easy, free hits as well. My sidearm of choice is the langes messer in 2H mode.

2. Balanced builds, especially with a slight focus on strength are, imo, the way to go. Personally I use 21/18 with 7 IF, 7 PS, 6 Ath, and 3 WM (99 2H prof, 98 polearm prof). If you go low strength, there's just too high a chance of glancing.

3. This is mostly to non-pikemen but: DON'T CONFUSE THE PIKE AND LONGSPEAR! They are 2 very different, distinct weapons. The longspear is a much better balanced weapon, and has a lot fewer weaknesses, but the 55 range reduction can really be a pain, especially when fighting Pikes.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Relit on July 01, 2012, 04:59:01 am
Damn it, I leave for a while and miss a great thread.

Anyway, might be a bit late but here's my input:

1. Don't underestimate a good sidearm, especially if you're using a pike. Don't listen to the BS about sidearms not being useful. There are situations where a pike/longspear is simply not a good option, and having a good sidearm can really save your ass. If you get the hang of switching between your pike and sidearm at the right times, it can net you some easy, free hits as well. My sidearm of choice is the langes messer in 2H mode.

2. Balanced builds, especially with a slight focus on strength are, imo, the way to go. Personally I use 21/18 with 7 IF, 7 PS, 6 Ath, and 3 WM (99 2H prof, 98 polearm prof). If you go low strength, there's just too high a chance of glancing.

3. This is mostly to non-pikemen but: DON'T CONFUSE THE PIKE AND LONGSPEAR! They are 2 very different, distinct weapons. The longspear is a much better balanced weapon, and has a lot fewer weaknesses, but the 55 range reduction can really be a pain, especially when fighting Pikes.

1: Sidearms slow you down as a pike/spearmen. Speed is the most important attribute for us on the battlefield. I highly recommend newer players stick to just the Pike/LS with no backup. It will force you to learn your weapon and get the most out of it.

2: You might as well just stack into just polearm. For the reason stated above and also because if it gets really so desperate that you need to switch to a backup weapon you can always just grab a polearm off the ground. (also the difference between 140+ prof and 99 prof is actually noticeable)

3: Dear god you are so right. People constantly confuse LS and Pike. They are completely different and are used in slightly different styles of use. Disagree on the LS being "much better balanced", the extra range for the pike opens up more opportunities to help teammates and keeps cavalry even more at bay.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zerran on July 01, 2012, 08:31:43 am
1: Sidearms slow you down as a pike/spearmen. Speed is the most important attribute for us on the battlefield. I highly recommend newer players stick to just the Pike/LS with no backup. It will force you to learn your weapon and get the most out of it.

2: You might as well just stack into just polearm. For the reason stated above and also because if it gets really so desperate that you need to switch to a backup weapon you can always just grab a polearm off the ground. (also the difference between 140+ prof and 99 prof is actually noticeable)

3: Dear god you are so right. People constantly confuse LS and Pike. They are completely different and are used in slightly different styles of use. Disagree on the LS being "much better balanced", the extra range for the pike opens up more opportunities to help teammates and keeps cavalry even more at bay.

1. There are a huge number of situations where a pike/LS is simply at a massive disadvantage, and having a sidearm can really be useful. Mostly these are 1v1 situations which can largely be avoided by having good clanmates with you, but even then 1v1 situations happen.
           - in a small room or alleyway without good support.
           - fighting a player that understands, and can react to, jump-spins. (Or a player you've hit a few times with one already. Most people learn after getting stabbed a few times.)
           - fighting mauls.
           - fighting some guy that decides to just backpeddle and downblock no matter what you do.
           - fighting on walls without good support.
           - fighting around steep inclines
           - fighting in areas with lots of junk/debris strewn about.

2. Again, with a sidearm you may as well put some points into it if you want to use it at all.

3. By "better balanced" I meant there are fewer situations where the longspear is at a massive disadvantage vs. other weapon choices. The pike tends to get caught on walls/debris more easily, and the longspear can both "spam" faster, react to thrust stun better, and can in general fight 1v1 more easily. Hence why I can see the longspear not necessarily needing a sidearm, but I strongly recommend it for a pike.
           
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Para on July 01, 2012, 12:28:54 pm
In my experience, a piker doesn't need mobility, he just needs good blocking skill and attack timing. If the piker is being attacked, the person supporting the piker should be hitting that guy in the back. You just have to keep the buddy system instilled in both players in order to have a successful supportive piker.

I'll take a supporting piker that can hit like a truck and survive hits over one that can move a little faster. Even if the piker is the slowest member of the group, the other players should be accommodating to the pikers speed, not the other way around. That 300 length weapon slows you down quite a bit anyways.  Xeen usually went 30/9 with 10 ps(i think) when he was piking, and we could duo large groups of players at a time.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zanze on July 01, 2012, 11:50:08 pm
Idk man. In my 15-24 build I 2-3 shotted people regularly thanks to the stupid amount of speed bonus you can throw into your attacks because of how slow they are. That was using a +1 longspear. With a +3 it turned to 1-2 shots with 18/21. All that str is overkill.

The reason I think you guys may enjoy and see str build pikes as more effective is because a lot of your crew are also strength builds in full plate or so. That slow mass isn't as effective in battle, but in siege works wonders. (Which is where I see you guys the most)

I also am dicks at controlling my stabs and hit teammates a good majority of the time. Abusing my speed bonus lets me drag my hit into their foot while backpeddling to do little damage, whereas If I had 10PS i'd still do an extremely large amount and probably tk my way to a banthread. Damage control rocks.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Gurnisson on July 02, 2012, 01:14:22 am
You need both mobility and damage. 21/18 is so much win for piking that I can't even describe it. 2/3 headshots are one-shot with a +3 pike, deal great damage to the body too, is still maneuverable enough to target switch a lot. Badass build
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on July 02, 2012, 01:45:32 am
The only logical choice is obviously 3/36. Who needs to do massive damage when they can't catch you and you can spam them? I mean honestly guys, we're all thinking this, I'm just saying it.
Plus I heard Relit was 3/36 for all his LS/Pike gens. True story guys.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Relit on July 02, 2012, 06:31:09 am
Oh Apple, you so crazy.

PS If I could use a pike with 3 str, I would.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: belm on July 05, 2012, 02:41:12 pm
30/9 build will teach you one important thing: kickstab = in most cases insta death for your oponent and no sidearm is required.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: Zerran on July 06, 2012, 01:05:51 am
30/9 build will teach you one important thing: kickstab = in most cases insta death for your oponent and no sidearm is required.

For... longspear. Not Pike.
Title: Re: Pike + 5ps? (question to exp. pike/longspear users)
Post by: PikeDan on July 06, 2012, 01:59:25 am
My normal build for piking is 24/15, Max PS, Max Athletics, 110ish Polearm, 70ish 1h, give or take.

You're just fast enough to stay with the main line if you're wearing light armor with enough PS to one hit people in Mail if you get a good run up to them, and it makes for a good "normal" polearm build as well in regards to Long Axes and Poleaxes/Bardiches.