cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Vibe on May 22, 2012, 12:12:50 pm

Title: Archer kiting
Post by: Vibe on May 22, 2012, 12:12:50 pm
Now I don't mind being shot/killed by archers, what makes me rage however is the excessive kiting they do... From the last 20 archers I encountered about 15 of them ran and kited me/us for half of the map. I know it's stupid to chase them but hell.. i want to end the fuckers.

Not sure if it's possible to code this but here goes:

When an archer is holding a bow, his athletics are reduced to a third (kind of like in rageball with the ball carrier).
When an archer is holding his melee weapon or has his bow sheathed, his athletics are normal.
When an archer switches from bow to melee or sheaths his bow, his athletics are still reduced to a third for 3 seconds (could be lower or higher).
When he is switching back to his bow he already goes back to a third of his athletics.


This should prevent the run'n'gun, kiting type archers while still leaving them the option to tactically retreat with their team. Ofcourse now they would have to reposition themselves earlier and not wait for enemy melee to get in 2m range, shoot an arrow to their chest at point blank and then run away at lightning speed.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: owens on May 22, 2012, 12:19:07 pm
nothing is wrong with kiting.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Lord_Panos on May 22, 2012, 12:21:23 pm
nothing is wrong with kiting.

yeah man because you know that you can actually string a longbow while you run away from a dude that is trying to chop you in half  :shock:
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Dalhi on May 22, 2012, 12:31:03 pm
Buff draw bumps!
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 22, 2012, 01:31:36 pm
Respecc into agi build! With 27 agi i hunt down pretty much all archers even tho im wearing heavier armour than them, its sweet.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 22, 2012, 01:34:59 pm
 +1
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Bulzur on May 22, 2012, 01:47:53 pm
I totally loath kiting archers.

But if you nerf archer's athletics, you'll actually make them an even easier target for cav, wich is something definitely not needed.

Enable infantrya warcry. If an ennemy archer/xbowman is close enough, he "inadvertably" drops his bow/xbow, cause of the fear. He then has the choice to pick it up, and sheath it to run away, out of warcry range, or start engaging in melee.

Of course, not everyone has this awesome warcry, you'd need 5 PS and 120 wpf in 1h OR 2h or Polearm. For example.


Having a main as an archer, i totally understand the issue with some running away cowards with not even a single melee weapon (except that 0 slot hammer, to downblock cav, but that's not a weapon, that's a piece of wood). I myself offer sympathy to any melee following me for more than 1min, and dodging my arrows (i allow one or two mistakes, no more), and accept the melee duel my follower wanted.
Or just sheath the bow and go find the rest of your teammates. Persistant kiting is definitely as frustrating as a mounted xbow.
This should definitely be in the "how to behave, archers", in the same tone as the "how to behave, cav" from Torben.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Teeth on May 22, 2012, 02:48:05 pm
Alternatively, disable archers from reaching sprint speed (the sudden speed up you normally do after 3 seconds of purely running forward) This will still allow ye old shoot & sidestep and minor repositioning, but they can't outspeed infantry when they are carrying their bow. So if they want to run, they have to switch to their melee weapon, which in turn disables them to run and shoot and might actually motivate people to get melee proficiency and become a proper battle archer.

Apart from that I think the archer wpf system should be reworked so an archer can wear some decent armor and be somewhat decent in melee, while retaining their current archer strength. I am fine with archers as long as they stand and fight. Force archers to become light/medium bow armed soldiers, instead of the peasants with bows they are now.

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Thats an archer.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Arrowblood on May 22, 2012, 03:03:57 pm
The problem is if a archer is not moving, and shots from a save place (yeah and its a house sometimes) everyone screames:


(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: PanPan on May 22, 2012, 03:05:14 pm
Yeah I would go into meele If I had a nice Wep but Oh gosh Archer who want to have strong arrows and enough of them need to go with 2 Packs (not including 1 slot bows)

But Yeah I know how ppl feel when I or some other Archer's kite... but I'm easy to catch I got only 3 ath.

I think it would be a good Idea to add a short version of the simple sword shorter, faster, less damage.

And a nice thing would be if you got 6 PD 160 wpf is max if you got 7 PD youa re able to take more WPF that
would motivate Archers to skill the rest points into Meele skills or make them accurate at 140-150 wpf.

But nevermind wich Nerf most of the Archers will still run if a tincan follows...
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Kafein on May 22, 2012, 04:33:10 pm
- Lighter shields
- Correct shield coverage
- Archery should be more about high PD than about high wpf, like melee weapons with PS.
- Buff the melee-ranged bump to 1 meter range, immediate effect and a real stun that prevents moving.


- More objective-based gamemodes. Kiting is only a real problem in battle where you need to kill the enemy team.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: ToxicKilla on May 22, 2012, 04:45:09 pm
This
(click to show/hide)
+ this
(click to show/hide)
= win
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Herr_Thomas on May 22, 2012, 04:48:32 pm
So many good suggestions.

Too bad none of them will be implemented.  :cry:
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Adamar on May 22, 2012, 05:04:29 pm
I frown uppon any nerf to athlectics, because its hard enought for non kitting archers like myself to fight in melee.
What I'd suggest is considerably lowering our wpf penalty when wearing decent armor, more people would wear it then. And our running speed would be considerably lower (like mine is), but we'd not exactely be weaker in melee.
Simply nerfing an already weak class wont do. If ranged loses the ability to kite, then we must be empowered somehow.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Zisa on May 22, 2012, 07:32:52 pm
Seems to be a lot of kiting throwers, you know, those guys who do not even bother with power strike (as some achers) and instead build to agi run away.

Removing kiting ability is just going to make them easier prey for dedicated archer hunters - ninjas, assassins, those guys.

The easiest way to deal with kiters is team work. If your build can not handle some other build, you best protect your team mates who can.

As much as I may rage against HA, HX, kiting archers and such... I personally enjoy these frustrating pursuits, even though me and the guy I am fighting are often wasting our time in a 'duel' instead of maximizing contribution to team. (Hello Release_Arrows)

It does become pissy when every bored guy decides to build the same damn build, such as waves of HX, waves of kiting throwers (last week's nonsense) etc.
Some of this could be mitigated by autobalancing based on class, so at least both teams could be miserable :D
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: _Sebastian_ on May 22, 2012, 09:19:01 pm
Not sure if it's possible to code this but here goes:

When an archer is holding a bow, his athletics are reduced to a third (kind of like in rageball with the ball carrier).
When an archer is holding his melee weapon or has his bow sheathed, his athletics are normal.
When an archer switches from bow to melee or sheaths his bow, his athletics are still reduced to a third for 3 seconds (could be lower or higher).
When he is switching back to his bow he already goes back to a third of his athletics.
It is.
And no athletics reduction is needed.

This is what I did in my mod.
Many things are not needed for crpg, but it is a good exampe how to code it;
Code: [Select]
#limit moving speed
moving_speed_limiter = (
  0.5, 0, 0,
  [
    (this_or_next|multiplayer_is_server),
    (neg|game_in_multiplayer_mode),
   
    (try_for_agents, ":agent"),
      (gt, ":agent", -1),
      (agent_is_alive, ":agent"),
      (agent_is_human, ":agent"),
      (agent_get_horse, ":horse", ":agent"),
      (le, ":horse", 0),
      (assign, ":speed", 100),
      (agent_get_wielded_item, ":weapon", ":agent", 0),
   
      (try_begin),
        (gt, ":weapon", 0),
        (item_get_type, ":weapon_type", ":weapon"),
        (agent_get_attack_action, ":attack_action", ":agent"),

        (try_begin),#Player
          (neg|agent_is_non_player, ":agent"),
          (try_begin),
            (eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_bow),
            (try_begin),
              (this_or_next|eq, ":attack_action", 1),#readying_attack
              (eq, ":attack_action", 2),#releasing_attack
              (assign, ":speed", 60),
            (try_end),
          (else_try),
            (this_or_next|eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_crossbow),
            (eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_musket),
            (try_begin),
              (this_or_next|eq, ":attack_action", 1),#readying_attack
              (eq, ":attack_action", 2),#releasing_attack
              (assign, ":speed", 70),
            (else_try),
              (eq, ":attack_action", 5),#reloading
              (assign, ":speed", 40),
            (try_end),
          (else_try),
            (eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_pistol),
            (try_begin),
              (this_or_next|eq, ":attack_action", 1),#readying_attack
              (eq, ":attack_action", 2),#releasing_attack
              (assign, ":speed", 90),
            (else_try),
              (eq, ":attack_action", 5),#reloading
              (assign, ":speed", 60),
            (try_end),
          (try_end),
       
        (else_try),#Bot
          (this_or_next|eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_bow),
          (this_or_next|eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_crossbow),
          (this_or_next|eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_musket),
          (this_or_next|eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_pistol),
          (eq, ":weapon_type", itp_type_thrown),
          (try_begin),
            (this_or_next|eq, ":attack_action", 1),#readying_attack
            (this_or_next|eq, ":attack_action", 2),#releasing_attack
            (eq, ":attack_action", 5),#reloading
            (assign, ":speed", 0),
          (try_end),
        (try_end),
      (try_end),
      (agent_slot_eq, ":agent", slot_agent_walk, 0),
      (agent_slot_eq, ":agent", slot_agent_sprint_time, 0),
      (agent_set_speed_modifier, ":agent", ":speed"),
    (try_end),
  ], [])
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Miwiw on May 22, 2012, 09:33:16 pm
(click to show/hide)

You Ser,
make a good point here.
I would love this but the wpf penalty kinda makes it impossible. I notice every weight that my accuracy drops (and a helment counts 3x therefore I don't wear one).
However I also went 18/18 this gen with 6 WM only and also PS/IF. That means I usually do not kite as I cannot outrun most people. Usually it is just 3 - 4 Shots if I am engaged and take some steps back. It is also kinda impossible for me as I use the 2-slots Rus Bow and a MW Miltary Cleaver. Therefore I only have 1 Stack of Bodkin Arrows (at least +1 therefore 17 Arrows, not enough for one round but I usually pick up other arrows).
Never liked kiting anyway, but I do not like the suggestion to heavily prevent archers from being able to play. Let them run if possible, most of those high athletics archers do not have enough PD to deal enough damage anyway. Some teamplay is required from all teams. :)

edit:
Not saying the archer system shouldn't be changed though.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 22, 2012, 09:38:18 pm
Don't get kited.  Usually those 5 people chasing one archer would be better off fighting with their main group.  Kiting is a valid tactic IMO.

People chasing a kiter annoys me the same as our cavalry getting engaged with enemy cavalry on the opposite side of the battlefield.  I would like to tell those people "BE USEFUL!"
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Teeth on May 22, 2012, 10:01:03 pm
You Ser,
make a good point here.
I would love this but the wpf penalty kinda makes it impossible.
I know its impossible thats why I think the wpf system should be reworked.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 23, 2012, 09:38:21 am
Correct shield coverage would make shields useless against ranged since it is so easy to aim.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Vibe on May 23, 2012, 09:41:14 am
Correct shield coverage would make shields useless against ranged since it is so easy to aim.

I would be up for correct shield coverage for smaller shields like the buckler. Those tiny pieces of steel that are drawing arrows from all over the place look ridiculous.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 23, 2012, 09:56:03 am
Hate to say it Vibe but this is a terrible idea.

Archers give up a lot to be able to run like fuck. They have to drop a great deal into ATH and wear no Armour at all. We shouldn't be punishing agi builds any more than they already are.

I have 8ath and wear fuck all Armour and I can chase down everyone including Aderyn. I just have to find a way to bridge the distance then come flying out of a bush swing my dagger like a loon. If some one with good ping did this you would see some very angry archers and throwers.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Kafein on May 23, 2012, 10:35:36 am
Correct shield coverage would make shields useless against ranged since it is so easy to aim.

By "correct shield coverage" I really meant that shields shouldn't be ghostly pieces of 4th dimensional wood/steel on the sides that let arrows through but not polearms.

Also, the whole shield should act as passive ranged defense (you are doing another animation and your shield catches an arrow) as they did before the forcefield nerf, and not just a tiny part at the center.


Also, such a change would be a very good excuse to nerf the bucklers, because hell they are the only ones where being forced to actively move your camera to block makes sense, and yet they currently cover nearly as much as a huscarl shield because they are round.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Siberian_Wolf on May 23, 2012, 08:45:16 pm
Alternatively, disable archers from reaching sprint speed (the sudden speed up you normally do after 3 seconds of purely running forward) This will still allow ye old shoot & sidestep and minor repositioning, but they can't outspeed infantry when they are carrying their bow. So if they want to run, they have to switch to their melee weapon, which in turn disables them to run and shoot and might actually motivate people to get melee proficiency and become a proper battle archer.

Apart from that I think the archer wpf system should be reworked so an archer can wear some decent armor and be somewhat decent in melee, while retaining their current archer strength. I am fine with archers as long as they stand and fight. Force archers to become light/medium bow armed soldiers, instead of the peasants with bows they are now.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Thats an archer.

Its funny... When archers werent forced into pure archery because of PD - wpf requirements and slot system people cried about how they shouldnt be decent in melee. Now they they dont do melee you cry for them too. Make up your mind.

Btw.

   Melee cry about everything.
   There are little to no threads where archers cry.

Lol.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Kafein on May 23, 2012, 11:59:27 pm
Its funny... When archers werent forced into pure archery because of PD - wpf requirements and slot system people cried about how they shouldnt be decent in melee. Now they they dont do melee you cry for them too. Make up your mind.

Btw.

   Melee cry about everything.
   There are little to no threads where archers cry.

Lol.

Given that it is reasonable to think on average the people that play melee and archer characters are the same, what you say is actually a compelling argument that screams something is wrong with the game. If everything was right everybody would be whining equally.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: San on May 25, 2012, 07:05:19 am
I sure would enjoy being an infantry shielder more if some of these suggestions are implemented.

The problem with not chasing a kiting archer is that you have to then be preoccupied with them for an extended amount of time afterwards, since they will likely start to target you. Kiting melee helps my team group up on the ones left behind. Kiting archers just isolate the chasers and make them useless to the team instead.


I do think a buff to archer melee capabilities should be included, though. Not nearly as good as a melee build, but better than what we have now would be nice.
Title: Re: Archer kiting
Post by: Kafein on May 25, 2012, 12:54:06 pm
A buff to the archer melee capabilities is what could solve the problem together with a nerf of dedicated archery (so that an archer hybrid is better than now, but a peasant firing a bazooka is not)