cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: epoch on March 21, 2011, 04:54:24 am
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To what it was pre patch since no one is a lvl 40 agi stacker any more
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I'm an agility stacker :D
I have to on the go atm
not lvl 30 yet in fact far from it
so don't it absolutly hilarious when I fight with these guys
I laugh my head off
and there is no way of getting to lvl 40 anyway
so your resoning is invalid
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Xormanec, I see that you don't get something. Epoch spoke about reseting agi effects (and thus athletics, too!) to what it was before agi nerf. I am not sure if you know about that, but agi and athletics (especially second) were nerfed too much. Due to... 40 lvl agi stackers. And archers (pew pew --> run away from enemy --> pew pew --> run away...). Now, it is impossible: archers are shoting much slower, they cant run THAT fast due to drawing a bow animation... Because of that, athletics no longer make your max speed higher, as it was prepatch. Also, wpf prices should be reseted to what it was before patch, because prepatch there was a wpf bonus from retiring that made chance to have A LOT of STARTING wpfs after few retires, and now there isnt any bonus like that. And those str-stackers, who beat agi stackers every time they spot one, unless agi stacker (on foot) is great manual blocker or (on horse) has great riding and lancing skills.
I support buffing agi and athletics back!!!
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okay, next patch agi will be reset...if you retire you'll start from 3.
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Trolololo.
Fasader, I am serious. There isn't reason to keep athletics nerfed that much anymore!
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Trolololo.
Fasader, I am serious. There isn't reason to keep athletics nerfed that much anymore!
The Fallen Archer Death Squad officially supports this idea of being able to outrun every melee opponent again aside from the Agil ninjas that we can kill with one arrow.
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It is just that it is raining all the time. Rain makes people move slower; and moreso for high athletic builds.
Why is it almost always raining? 80 to 90% of my gameplay is during the rain.
[Not even mentioning what it does to xbow damage]
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Could this be a viable solution against throwing? Putting agility and athletics back to pre-patch levels would help people close the distance on throwers much more easily. Though this would help some throwers kite, many throwing weapons are heavy to the point of [potentially] mitigating pre-patch athletics.
And I'm not that worried about kiting archers. It may just be my build, but with their reduced damage and fragility I think it's certainly fair to buff their limited kiting ability.
And comon, Goretooth should not run at the same speed as a peasant. It doesn't matter how fit somebody is, they shouldn't run as fast as a peasant when wearing full black armour.
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Well first off, why exactly was athletics nerfed in the first place?
Next question is, do you want those problems to resurface again (and they will) once athletics is de-nerfed?
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I think it was because:
- archers kite
- incomparably fast weapons (masterwork scimitar + 30 agility = lightning)
- tin cans didn't like being outrun
Though, now, with throwers being as strong as they are throwing may help handicap kiting archers, fragile agility builds, and give tin cans something to do while they lumber behind their team.
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Well first off, why exactly was athletics nerfed in the first place?
Next question is, do you want those problems to resurface again (and they will) once athletics is de-nerfed?
Well, I'd still like to know what exactly was nerfed.
Looking at high agility chars they still run a lot faster than everyone, but it seems once you use medium armor high str build in heavy armor is just as fast.
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Here comes good post:
Whew this discussion got somewhere good while I was off playing Shogun 2.
So we can essentially conclude so far:
- To be extremely fast you have to be naked/near naked with a practice dagger.
- To just be plain fast you still have to be naked/near naked with a decently lightweight weapon.
- High STR builds almost everyone can agree is boring, yet it is so much more powerful that we are handicapping ourselves greatly if we don't do it.
- Armor destroys AGI even more than I originally realized with the WPF.
- AGI chars can always be near one-shot. However, they can't even swing fast enough to keep a STR character on their toes so they have zero advantage against them. Even if you are a much better duelist than the STR char you are fighting, you still have to hit them 5+ times to kill them and one slip will get you killed instead.
The grand picture: We are getting bored with doing throwing hybrids. We are getting bored seeing the exact same characters everywhere (with different looking armor, but generally the same). Nobody likes being one-shot, but unless you are one of the players "in the know", then you are probably getting one shot all the time. Fixing AGI brings back specialization characters while also putting a limit on how high STR can go (because they will get spammed; and rightfully should if they have 0 WM). This in turn lowers the number of "one-shots", making combat more interesting. It also makes combat more fast paced so everyone and their grandmother can't manual block like a Jedi (sorry to say, everyone that is a pro manual blocker now is only because combat is so slow paced..sure there are some great ones that would be great even with the faster speed; but there are SUBSTANTIALLY more players that can manual block everything than pre-patch because the combat speed has slowed down).
(Edit: Ok maybe that last comment was a bit harsh, but combat was still more interesting pre-patch with the faster paced non one-shot combat).
What was nerfed? Almost everything. Starting from making wpf price higher (thus reducing maximal amount of wpfs), through nerfing athletics so it no longer makes your MAX speed higher - you just get to max speed faster with higher athletics, ending on too big influence on how fast you are running comparing to what you wear ("ninjas" lamellar armor slows you down so much, that you shouldnt be called "ninja" anymore. 9 weight is ridiculous).
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Clarifying, athletics DOES increase your max speed. It is raped in the rain (which it is almost always raining since patch) and then further lowered by weight.
If you are wearing medium armor? Don't bother with athletics past 5. With 5 you'll be able to do all the fancy footwork you'll ever need in battle. You won't even need 5.
With 10 athetics, not raining, with a total gear weight of 2? Oh yeah I am faster than everyone else in that situation.
I just think the rain amount needs to be lowered. What happened that made the likelihood of rain go up so much?
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Power strike also increases swing speed.
Strength builds can get almost the same speed of swing and fairly high WPF in a single line without any real speed sacrifice.
That and you throw in a stupid amount of HP and you get the current strength build band wagon problem.
Agility needs to effect swing speed again for starters, and wpf costs should be set back to how they were before.
Athletics I am fine with as it is, but if they want to change that too then I won't complain.
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Perhaps strength shouldn't affect swing speed then? It's be nice if more average players could actually get in before the great mauls fall.
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PS affects swing speed? first time i've ever heard of it
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Since your damage is higher you can hit earlier in the animation I guess is what he means.
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No. Strength does not increase swing speed. It increases damage independently of power strike in addition though.
I'm going to assume that he is referencing the fact you can be a 10 PS tank with 132 WPF on a 30/9 build. You are barely slower at all with swing speed than a balanced or agi build.
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127 prof*
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And archers (pew pew --> run away from enemy --> pew pew --> run away...)
You'll never catch me with your silly horses! :rolleyes:
I don't know, I think that agility/athletics is fine to be honest with you, it's not like I really notice the fact that people are really slow, I mean there are occasions when I can happily outrun everyone with my 7 athletics and light armour but I like that, it also means I can't just press w and get away from anything, I have to actually withdraw tactically rather than just "Screw this, i'm outta here" and disappearing leaving a cloud of dust behind! I think it's actually balanced quite well in that respect :shock:
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No. Strength does not increase swing speed. It increases damage independently of power strike in addition though.
I'm going to assume that he is referencing the fact you can be a 10 PS tank with 132 WPF on a 30/9 build. You are barely slower at all with swing speed than a balanced or agi build.
15/21 build with 7 WM: 164 prof. Leaves you with 5 PS.
So you get half the PS for a measly 35-40 wpf?
Not worth it imo, but since I'm a rather poor blocker I need high athletics to benefit from my footwork.
Strengthbuilds have all the advantages atm. 1 hit kill most people, can't be outspammed, average speed compared to everybody else (mostly other strengthbuilds).
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Agi just needs to be given the passive attack speed bonus back and it will be fine. A guy with 18+ agility should be able to outspam a 3 agility tincan.
Currently strenght offers passive damage bonus and +1hp for each str point. Agi only offers a slight movement speed bonus (5 extra agi has the effect of 1 extra athletics if I remember correctly).
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Agi just needs to be given the passive attack speed bonus back and it will be fine.
This.
All the uber-strength Bar Mace spammers and the like is getting a bit boring.
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WPF scaling should be changed too.
You shouldn't be able to get to 50 wpf for 1 pt each.
I think the +1 point every 25 before was fine since now no one has carry over WPF from retirements. This will also make pure classes a lot more viable again, and not nerf hybrids at the same time.
+1 also for passive swing speed bonus for agility like before also.
The 3 agility 2h tin cans need to end already.
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No they dont, you have to make agi more interesting...
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EDIT: The FOTM 2h 3 agility tin cans who think they have "skills" need to end.
There wouldn't be so damn many of them if they were actually balanced AND required skill to play since according to the forums here everyone has to L2P.
Like most of the BRD clan.
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I use a 1h and I have 9 agi, problem?
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I have 5 athletic but i am fast in my mail armor.But in the athletic need more balancing.
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EDIT: The FOTM 2h 3 agility tin cans who think they have "skills" need to end.
There wouldn't be so damn many of them if they were actually balanced AND required skill to play since according to the forums here everyone has to L2P.
Like most of the BRD clan.
Not sure if you just called BRD skill-less "Flavor of the Month" tin cans...
I'm not even going to comment on that.
However, wpf scaling just needs to be reverted so agility is useful again. It will restore the balance between strength and agility builds.
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Get a little frustrated with Wallace and Linden overhand barmace spam =/
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Get a little frustrated with Wallace and Linden overhand barmace spam =/
If they're spamming it should be easy to kill them...
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Get a little frustrated with Wallace and Linden overhand barmace spam =/
Earthdforce, I bolded part that shows why they can't be killed easly.
I guess Konrax meant, that they use str builds and still are fast...
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Maybe a 30-40 point difference in wpf between 1 WM and 6 WM if you spec in one line.
EDIT: Which based on Walt's testing should only provide a 2-3% swing speed advanced for a balanced character build.