cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tomas_of_Miles on March 19, 2011, 12:32:23 pm

Title: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on March 19, 2011, 12:32:23 pm
Ok. I'm not going to say anything is the gospel truth here. BUT.

There is a cycle of nerfing here, first we had the whole tincans, upkeep etc. Fairenough? Sure, some people wear heavy armour if they have the money, but the game is a lot more balnced now. Well done.

Ranged dudes could fire too quickly and too accurately, this has been adjusted, well done! As a dedicated xbower most builds, I am ok with that, it makes sense.

However, people need to think more before they go calling for NERF because they may not have experienced the playing style of the person who killed them and just call nerf because their build can't deal with another persons.

For example, horse archery, a completely valid and effective tactic, frowned on by most. Imo, it is fine as it is now, the horse archery skill has been nerfed and it is still playable. If you are a melee class, there is your downfall, if you wanted to be able to hit people from far away, you should have chosen a ranged build. If you don't have a shield, you need to remember you pwn in close quarters. Don't whine. Instead, if this is a team game, protect those of your team who have the capabilities to strike at those you can't.

Throwing: high damage, faster than archery and xbowing(generally, some archers can outshoot a heavy thrower). Ok so it is high damage. The weapon can be dodged, and is actually very inaccurate. Shield build? Maybe block the line of sight to other less well protected allies so you can all advance and gank the thrower.

Basically, when calling for a nerf you need a bit of empathy, and be able to distinguish between what is a good player using a clever build effectively, and what is actually completely OP.

P.S. Crushthrough weapons are never used with shields. Shoot the dudes! Or run away. And let someone else shoot. Or use your superior speed and range to kill them first.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on March 19, 2011, 02:12:09 pm
Sometimes it is justified but usually it's a case of, it's easier to whine than to actually put facts to your opinions.

Often people will call for a nerf on something which they have never played or tried. Not always the case, but often it is.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: UrLukur on March 19, 2011, 08:41:39 pm
(click to show/hide)

P.S. Crushthrough weapons are never used with shields. Shoot the dudes! Or run away. And let someone else shoot. Or use your superior speed and range to kill them first.
Except they can just equip the shield when they approach melee.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Kalam on March 19, 2011, 08:44:57 pm
Ultimately, I believe cRPG is balanced. More balanced than native, in fact. As someone (Thomek, maybe?) once said, the fact that everyone is whining about everything is a sign that things are pretty balanced.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Dravic on March 19, 2011, 09:56:04 pm
Throwing should be nerfed, and that's the only thing i want. why? I have no problem with weapons, that hit me, if i know that enemy had to have a "player skill" and he knew where he was aiming.

Because you never know, where that throwing weap is going to land. Throwing is too much inaccurate. Should be really accurate, so random people that dont know how to throw things won't be killing due to luck. Now, it is:

Skilled people know +/- where to shot, but it depends on luck where whithin reticule will fly your weapon. Random, unskilled players know, that they can't aim with throwing, so they just throw and... due to luck, they land a hit and kill people. Wise people rarely can dodge throwing weapon, because they never know where is that weapon going to fly.

Should be:

Skilled people know, how to shot, so they are killing machines (but with that comes: decreased ammo of all throwing weapons by 1, nerfed dmg by 20%-25%). Random people won't be able to throw accurately, if they dont know how fast and far their weapon flies. Also, if person aims at you, you should know, that his/her weapon will fly at you, so you can dodge right or left, not like now: person aims exactly at you, you dodge left, and weapon magically flies at you due to huge reticule and a bit of thrower's luck.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Gorath on March 19, 2011, 10:41:56 pm
Sometimes it is justified but usually it's a case of, it's easier to whine than to actually put facts to your opinions.

Often people will call for a nerf on something which they have never played or tried. Not always the case, but often it is.

Biggest issue I have with most of the threads are a distinct lack of any mathematical backing to support their claims about the mechanics when it comes to their cries of OP/UP/Buff/Nerf.
When talking about weapons especially.  Half the time there's no direct comparison to the other weapons of that type, function, cost, etc.  Just some cry of "This is OP because I die to it alot!".

We have some fairly good discussions about actual game mechanics here somewhat often, it's just that it gets drowned out by the chorus of plebs screaming verbal fappitude all over the front page.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 20, 2011, 07:13:05 am
I support this thread 100%.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on March 20, 2011, 11:39:50 am
Biggest issue I have with most of the threads are a distinct lack of any mathematical backing to support their claims about the mechanics when it comes to their cries of OP/UP/Buff/Nerf.
When talking about weapons especially.  Half the time there's no direct comparison to the other weapons of that type, function, cost, etc.  Just some cry of "This is OP because I die to it alot!".

We have some fairly good discussions about actual game mechanics here somewhat often, it's just that it gets drowned out by the chorus of plebs screaming verbal fappitude all over the front page.
Yeah that sums it up pretty well.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on March 20, 2011, 02:57:20 pm
Throwing should be nerfed, and that's the only thing i want. why? I have no problem with weapons, that hit me, if i know that enemy had to have a "player skill" and he knew where he was aiming.

Because you never know, where that throwing weap is going to land. Throwing is too much inaccurate. Should be really accurate, so random people that dont know how to throw things won't be killing due to luck. Now, it is:

Skilled people know +/- where to shot, but it depends on luck where whithin reticule will fly your weapon. Random, unskilled players know, that they can't aim with throwing, so they just throw and... due to luck, they land a hit and kill people. Wise people rarely can dodge throwing weapon, because they never know where is that weapon going to fly.

Should be:

Skilled people know, how to shot, so they are killing machines (but with that comes: decreased ammo of all throwing weapons by 1, nerfed dmg by 20%-25%). Random people won't be able to throw accurately, if they dont know how fast and far their weapon flies. Also, if person aims at you, you should know, that his/her weapon will fly at you, so you can dodge right or left, not like now: person aims exactly at you, you dodge left, and weapon magically flies at you due to huge reticule and a bit of thrower's luck.

The thing is that is low level throwing, and the fact that the reticule is larger actually makes it harder to aim. I had a 1h/xbow/thrower build last gen, and I found throwing paid off more when I invested points in throwing and power throw. When I was standing still, like bows and xbows, I could actually aim, it was just harder because the arc of the weapon was more dramatic, like a grenade. Ansatsusha was a thrower before all these patches, haven't seen him for ages, and he used to get headshots consistently with throwing daggers. People have forgotten what it was like before all these patches and it is a lot more balanced. The only thing I have against throwing is the damage against high level armour, but I suppose you get less ammo than bows and arrows...
Anyway my point is have you tried being a thrower? It is harder than being an xbower or cav player from my experience.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Dravic on March 20, 2011, 03:42:13 pm
Yeah, i had pure thrower 14PT/105(or something like that, 0 WM).

It was easy mode. Seriously, a man could do some steps to me, i just grabed javelin and threw it at his face/chest and he was dead (1 hit 1 death).

That was time AFTER patch and you know... i retired from that easymode to a 2h, and my sister made an alt for herself to play... she is doing well with her 12PT11PS. Even tho she cant manual block.

O, and remember what i said: throwing is TOO INACCURATE. Even noob can have some luck to shot 10 athletics ninja even tho ninja "should" dodge weapon. Thrower just didnt knew where is he throwing!

Thats the point: you kill anyone with a bit of luck. A BIT. In opposite, SKILLED throwers cant be sure where actually are they going to throw stuff, so their SKILL doesnt really matter compared to luck of random throwers.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Thomek on March 20, 2011, 03:50:33 pm
Crying for nerfs is a part of the continuous cycle of feedback to the devs.

Of course since it's a long time since patch there are no new arguments anymore, I even rarely bother to read the balance section anymore..
@Gorath, there is very little known about the mathematics behind game mechanics.. That was always a problem in these discussions. Anyway the classes played by the playerbase is always changing and so does the game experience.. Lately I've seen a lot of crossbows, far far more than archers i.ex. Some time ago it was throwing that dominated. Archers have had their time in cRPG, Horse Archers, and cav too.

If you played long enough, you get a good feel for the power of things, and their actual usefulness in battle.. Something which is not simply a mathematical question, but also a question of the idea of the playstyle. (I.ex HA is powerful by the IDEA of the class, Bar mace is powerful because of range+speed+crushblock - because range has numerous advantages in duels)

Right now it's just 3-4 things that I really find OP

1. Bar mace (Especially heirloomed with high str chars)
2. Throwing at high levels (Throwing (pthrow) scales bad, too weak at low levels, too powerful at high way)
3. Side sword (Too fast for its damage and range, very close to 2h performance)

I have balance issues with some weapons that are simply superior like the greatswords, as I think that most weapons above a certain level should be "equal" in power. (Power I mean a mushy term describing overall usefulness and efficiency in battle) They should not behave equally though, but have unique characteristics..
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: justme on March 20, 2011, 03:55:00 pm
speed of some loomed horse maybe?
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Heroin on March 20, 2011, 04:46:58 pm
I support this thread 100%.

I support this guy's comments until further notice.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Were_M_Eye on March 20, 2011, 04:57:25 pm
I just played this games a few weeks, but only after 2 days i realized that most cries for nerfs was made because they met their counter. If you got paper then rock is totaly fine, but scissors, omg scissors got to be nerfed.



ps. I play cav so pikes got to be nerfed  :wink:
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Vibe on March 21, 2011, 07:41:13 am
Imho yeah, cRPG is actually pretty well balanced. Maybe throwing is a bit annoying and powerful, but still.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Taggerung on March 21, 2011, 07:23:10 pm
The majority of people who are crying for nerf on throwers are those either too stubborn or too stupid to buy a shield and close the gap to murder them.

Every class has a counter to it...even dedicated throwers. As a dedicated thrower, my biggest fear is seeing a shielder running at me, and watch their huscarl shield absord 2-3 throwing lances...and then do nothing as they kill me in melee, because as a dedicated thrower you need at least 10 power throw, and want at least 120 wpf so the reticule isn't way bigger than a horse. This means at a 30/9 build, you have at most 50 wpf in any melee you have, and you either have to give up power strike to have iron flesh, or vice versa.

Also, as a result of the high end throwing weapons being super expensive to repair (500+ per stack), you can't really wear armor, or your funds will quickly be gone. So lets recap...

Low amount of weapons - negative
High cost - negative
High damage - super positive
inaccurate - negative
squishy characters (Usually) - negative
low athletics - negative
Quick weapon draw on each throwing weapon - positive
Watching everyone cry about a build that is super easy to counter- priceless


That's a whole lot of negatives for two positives that the build has. Even then, I think the only nerf it should have is that it's pretty stupid how quickly it is to pull out new throwing weapons. If you nerf damage, or the amount of weapons in a stack, then the class will be worthless, absolutely worthless. It would be like making melee weapons that can break after a certain number of blocks...
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Rhade on April 07, 2011, 01:33:33 am
For example, horse archery, a completely valid and effective tactic, frowned on by most. Imo, it is fine as it is now, the horse archery skill has been nerfed and it is still playable. If you are a melee class, there is your downfall, if you wanted to be able to hit people from far away, you should have chosen a ranged build. If you don't have a shield, you need to remember you pwn in close quarters. Don't whine. Instead, if this is a team game, protect those of your team who have the capabilities to strike at those you can't.

lol.

2h'ers are just as effective as 1h+shield in close quarters, with 1h weapons being even faster and longer than they were in Native, yet 1h'ers are able to block arrows/range and 2h'ers are just expected to die.

k.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on April 07, 2011, 04:35:51 am
lol.

2h'ers are just as effective as 1h+shield in close quarters, with 1h weapons being even faster and longer than they were in Native, yet 1h'ers are able to block arrows/range and 2h'ers are just expected to die.

k.

I disagree, 2h are better in cq at the same level. Shield delays make 1h slower.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Elmetiacos on April 12, 2011, 08:43:40 pm
I'm not calling for a nerf of anything at the moment, with the possible exceptions of some weapons (see below) but I do think the character creation and improvement process needs some tweaking because we are back to the pre patch situation of all the infantry going around with crossbows: then it was because you got reasonable accuracy with no wpf invested, now it's because the wpf cost favours hybrids. This is not the same as saying "nerf crossbows".

Weapons need nerfing - or other ones need buffing - when everyone seems to be using them because they obviously have an advantage. The number of hafted blades and side swords in play, for example, suggests that they aren't as well balanced with respect to other weapons as they could be.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Chestaclese on April 13, 2011, 01:12:04 am
I think Dravic has a point. Throwing weapons should be made more accurate so that unskilled throwers aren't so lucky in killing people. Reduce the plus luck on throwing weapons and add more accuracy.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Canny on April 14, 2011, 12:30:09 pm
herp derp durrr nerf rain, nerf night time, nerf ladders, nerf daggers, nerf siege, nerf _________ ...
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Blondin on April 14, 2011, 01:11:19 pm
Nerf nerfing...
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Baron_Settmour on April 18, 2011, 08:09:28 pm
I think Dravic has a point. Throwing weapons should be made more accurate so that unskilled throwers aren't so lucky in killing people. Reduce the plus luck on throwing weapons and add more accuracy.

No freakin way! I hope you are trolling because throwing weapons are already way too accurate. Do you know that during the middle ages, the Franks, Anglo-Saxons, and Scandinavians that threw axes, javelins, etc. did so because it was meant to pierce the shield and render it useless. Not to actually kill someone because they knew it was inaccurate.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Patricia on April 18, 2011, 09:45:31 pm
I disagree, 2h are better in cq at the same level. Shield delays make 1h slower.

My guess would be that's because you suck, a good shielder with a good build can outspam me when I'm using a fast 2handed/polearm (94-98 speed rating) with 140 prof.

I even have a shielder, the shield delay is hardly noticeable.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on April 19, 2011, 05:24:21 am
My guess would be that's because you suck, a good shielder with a good build can outspam me when I'm using a fast 2handed/polearm (94-98 speed rating) with 140 prof.

I even have a shielder, the shield delay is hardly noticeable.

Oohhoohoo personal jibe and minimal contribution...  :rolleyes:
I suppose it is different for everyone, and the patches must make some differences between builds too... not all the different builds I have made have been in the same patch.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Opium.dk on April 19, 2011, 06:10:23 am
The majority of people who are crying for nerf on throwers are those either too stubborn or too stupid to buy a shield and close the gap to murder them.

Every class has a counter to it...even dedicated throwers. As a dedicated thrower, my biggest fear is seeing a shielder running at me, and watch their huscarl shield absord 2-3 throwing lances...and then do nothing as they kill me in melee, because as a dedicated thrower you need at least 10 power throw, and want at least 120 wpf so the reticule isn't way bigger than a horse. This means at a 30/9 build, you have at most 50 wpf in any melee you have, and you either have to give up power strike to have iron flesh, or vice versa.

Also, as a result of the high end throwing weapons being super expensive to repair (500+ per stack), you can't really wear armor, or your funds will quickly be gone. So lets recap...

Bullshit.

Throwing is unbalanced as it is right now, everyone but throwers themselves know this.

Yes, i've been a thrower myself with only 6 PT 90WPF and kicked ass nearly every game.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Taggerung on April 19, 2011, 10:21:29 am
6 PT is useless....Troll less
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Opium.dk on April 19, 2011, 10:40:17 pm
6 PT is useless....Troll less

Useless if you suck.

I was in the top 5 with 6 PT and javelins most of the time.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Stil on April 19, 2011, 10:56:20 pm
(click to show/hide)

Somewhat of a late comer here but I honestly support this idea, while I've not played a pure thrower and my hybrid is only level 26 at Gen1 I've already got her throwing where I originally wanted it and I have to say luck is the biggest deciding factor in any of my throwing kills or even just hits. I can aim the reticule just fine but I'll miss most of my shots because it wants to go off to the right or the left.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Chestaclese on April 20, 2011, 01:13:35 am
(click to show/hide)

Somewhat of a late comer here but I honestly support this idea, while I've not played a pure thrower and my hybrid is only level 26 at Gen1 I've already got her throwing where I originally wanted it and I have to say luck is the biggest deciding factor in any of my throwing kills or even just hits. I can aim the reticule just fine but I'll miss most of my shots because it wants to go off to the right or the left.

I agree. Nerf throwing by making it more accurate. While I don't profess to be as great a thrower as these well knowledged throwers, I can say with all honesty the biggest deciding factor for me in any of my throwing kills or even just hits is if the person I am throwing at sees my arm making a throwing motion. To compensate might I also suggest that you add the option of having a large leg kick animation for throwing not unlike Sachel Paige or Orlando Hernandez.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Taggerung on April 20, 2011, 06:13:21 pm
Throwing as a whole doesn't need to be nerfed. What does need to be nerfed is all the hybrids that use it. Pure throwers are rare, and the problem with throwing is that you require 0 WPF to do it just as well as you would with 120 wpf (Trust me, this gen I have pt 9 right now, and haven't spent a single point of WPF in it, and my reticule is just slightly larger) If you do anything, make throwing require WPF to throw at all accurately.

It shouldn't be super accurate like a bow or xbow, but make those hybrids useless unless they put WPF into it.
Title: Re: Nerfing: Crying or Justified
Post by: Baron_Settmour on April 20, 2011, 06:58:10 pm
Throwing as a whole doesn't need to be nerfed. What does need to be nerfed is all the hybrids that use it. Pure throwers are rare, and the problem with throwing is that you require 0 WPF to do it just as well as you would with 120 wpf (Trust me, this gen I have pt 9 right now, and haven't spent a single point of WPF in it, and my reticule is just slightly larger) If you do anything, make throwing require WPF to throw at all accurately.

It shouldn't be super accurate like a bow or xbow, but make those hybrids useless unless they put WPF into it.

Totally support this. I am getting tired of going in for a good fight only to have a guy put away his pocket pike or spamberge and then hit me with a throwing lance for an insta-kill.