cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Herpderp on May 01, 2012, 06:48:27 pm
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First I'll start off by mentioning a few facts. I've played native for a long time, cRPG for more then a year as of this point, and I've played archer at least 50% of my time. I also am pretty good at archery in real life, and if it matters I was born under the constellation of Sagittarius. Now that we got if I'm qualified enough to argue this out of the way, I would like to explain exactly how archery is broken. In native, archery is relatively more realistic, and definitely overpowered. Against a decent archer or me you cannot get into close range without expecting to be headshot most of the time, and my kd/r was at least 5:1 as archer, my deaths being mostly to other archers and xbowers. This is broken yes, but actually also as broken as it is in cRPG. Not overpowered broken, but a different kind of broken. This was like this at the start, patches did not change it from being not broken. The reason it's broken is because of the accuracy and damage values. Mainly accuracy, even at level 30 as a dedicated archer you will hit about 35 degrees to your target at medium range. This leads to archery being luck, not skill. My positioning is what gets me kills, not aim. And barely any kills at that. I get an average 1 mace kill per game, and do about enough damage to kill a medium armoured enemy and a half with my bow. And this as a dedicated archer with all my points towards archery-based skills. No PF, IS, or 2h wpf here. So everybody who is saying archery doesn't require skill is right, but only because of what I've said so far. This doesn't only effect archers either. Archery being broken is one of the reasons most cav in cRPG are braindead. I can't even count the number of times a horse xbower went up to me point blank when I was shooting him and shot me right in the face, or a lancer cav charging straight into me in a line of archers just to bump me and run away without a thought. Even though if archery required skill they would be pincushions they go directly into crying about archers being skill-less cowards when they die. Stay classy cav. I will guarantee you if cavalry actually got punished while running into a group of archers or dumb polearms they would be a lot smarter, but that's an argument for another day. So that's how it's broken, and now for how to fix it. First, make wpf matter little towards accuracy and have archers always be almost accurate, with level 30 being close to how it is in native. Sounds insane? Now here's the balance part. Have wpf count for arrow speed and distance adding up to damage. Not only is this a good idea but it adds to realism. Accuracy is player skill, strength and speed is experience. Using a better bow should be harder with lower wpf, so that using a longbow with low wpf gives you less arrow speed and damage while using a lighter load bow is better in that area until you get enough wpf. Accuracy should remain the same. Just to make you guys sure that the current system doesn't make sense, compare it to melee combat. Having your arrows miss at max level even at close range is like having your blocks and swings randomly not work. Being able to beat an enemy in melee with worst stats/weapons should be the same for archers, if they have enough skill in positioning and accuracy. And finally to sum it up please buff income at least by a bit. I know archers don't need armour but it really sucks losing .8k constantly just for having bodkins and archers get punished enough in many ways for having armour as it is.
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Use paragraphs goddammit... :shock:
Also: No, what you're saying doesn't hold any special legitimacy and is mostly just reflected personal opinions.
The accuracy bit I can kind of, slightly, to a small extent (...) agree with, but missile speed should stay.
I also like how you try to hide your message "BUFF ARCHERY" behind sneaky formulations and an annoying wall of text.
Have a nice day!
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TL;DR.
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what is your build herpderp???
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People won't listen to you, even if the read through it.
Make the reticule pinpoint accurate at 150 WPF at full longest range. In other words, if a target is standing still, and you have your crosshairs on it (adjusting for the arc of course, it is actually an inch or so above), then you hit it.
Increase bow damage across the board.
Next, un-nerf athletics so that melee can dodge properly again. That means being able to use strafe that got nerfed to shit, not by spinning left and right 90 degrees while charging forwards. It doesn't matter if an archer has pinpoint accuracy if the melee is no longer where the archer shot. Being able to dodge properly with proper athletics will also nerf cavalry by proxy (as it should be)
Reduce the athletics penalty given to shielders. If you have to reduce the weight of shields to 0 weight accomplish that, then do it.
Give cavalry their range back on poles on horseback. Let them spin around as they want trying to catch those dancing melee again.
Take away the bonus damage to cavalry legs.
Given all of that, in proper measure to each buffed item, the game will be in balance again.
However, the outcry from the strength crutchers will shake the very foundations of the heavens. Teeth gnashing will rend the air with its screeching sound, blowing out eardrums and the forums will run with blood as they can no longer have their cake and rub it in the faces of agility builds too. "I want my 27/6 build and I want to catch anyone on the field while doing it!!"
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I also like how you try to hide your message "BUFF ARCHERY" behind sneaky formulations and an annoying wall of text.
I'm not just crying out for a buff. I want a mechanic rework. Technically yes good archers should be made better. There is currently no skill involved in archery outside of positioning. I'm sure many good archers for example Fallen members can agree archery is not rewarding. If melee combat was equally brainless there would be plenty of people complaining.
what is your build herpderp???
Currently I find the Hornbow build to be the best, enough STR for power draw for the bow rest in AGI related skills, all wpf to bow, don't remember the exact numbers. I've tried pretty much all archery builds hornbow is the only bow worth using imo because of all the bonuses it gives you.
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Archery is fine where it is. It is not broken and it is not op. I was an archer for 3 of my 7 gens and I stopped cause I wanted to be melee. I was an archer through three updates and right now it is the best out of the three
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I was born under the constellation of Sagittarius.
You are my natural whatever it is I'm supposed to hate. So I hate you and minused your post.
And yeah, first ever thread I replied to without reading the OP. Including Joker threads.
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Archery will be fine again with a proper nerf.
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I dont get it, I find less accuracy to make archery more demanding and skill based... It's like you've got it backwards.
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I dont get it, I find less accuracy to make archery more demanding and skill based... It's like you've got it backwards.
So you think that more randomness = more skill? You're the backwards country peasant.
More accurate with the enemy being more able to evade = more skill on both counts.
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I think archery would be better if bows were more accurate and the damage of bows was normalized. Right now they either seem to do no damage or a fuck-ton.
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I think archery would be better if bows were more accurate and the damage of bows was normalized. Right now they either seem to do no damage or a fuck-ton.
This, for the love of god this. Please please please find a way to normalize damage from arrows and have the random armour value not swing from 50%-100% from range.
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I - it just for the thread title.
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Use paragraphs goddammit... :shock:
He did
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So you think that more randomness = more skill? You're the backwards country peasant.
I'd appreciate some sence when arguing.
smaller reticule -> easier to aim -> less skill required
Archery is never trully random. the path of the arrow can be centred on the reticule with a good deal of timming and steadyness on the archers' part(kind of like, you know, real life). This is what distinguiches skillful archers from the others. True that smaller retivules would allow easier long-range headshots, but noone wants that, save archers.
What the op is suggesting is making crpg look more like native, with meleers dancing around like crazy to dodge.
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Archery is fine where it is. It is not broken and it is not op. I was an archer for 3 of my 7 gens and I stopped cause I wanted to be melee. I was an archer through three updates and right now it is the best out of the three
I've done archery on and off for many different patches and i can tell you that archery right now is about the weakest it's ever been. The trend for most other classes is towards slightly more power or minor nerfs, but with all the complaints about ranged archery receives nerf after nerf. The general trend is to nerf archery, realize that they nerfed to hard and then bring it back up a little till it's not as bad as the nerf but still worse than the previous patch. After this cycle is done, wait until the new archery style is accepted as the norm (though it is significantly worse than the previous cycle) then nerf archery again.
People are stubborn so there will always be archers, but i remember a time when arrows actually did damage to targets and actually flew a reasonable distance at a reasonable speed. T'was a grand time.
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I'd appreciate some sence when arguing.
Then don't cut out the argument you pleeb.
I dont get it, I find less accuracy to make archery more demanding and skill based... It's like you've got it backwards.
So you think that more randomness = more skill? You're the backwards country peasant.
More accurate with the enemy being more able to evade = more skill on both counts.
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I dont get it, I find less accuracy to make archery more demanding and skill based... It's like you've got it backwards.
If you fire arrows at a wall with a steady aim only ~50% will hit where the centre of the the area covered by your reticule: the rest will be spread out over the remaining area. It is this randomness that is presumably being talked about. There is now amount of skill that will let you hit a target 100% of the time at a range where your reticule is bigger than the target.
I would support:
1) Pin-point accuracy (no randomness) with all bows and 0 wpt
2) Missile speed increase with wpt
3) Forced 1st person (like there was on EU 3 a long time ago)
Skilled archers wouldn't have to min-max: more melee, less running, less point-blank shooting.
And Rustyspoons suggestion:
I think archery would be better if bows were more accurate and the damage of bows was normalized. Right now they either seem to do no damage or a fuck-ton.