cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Torben on April 17, 2012, 04:05:54 pm

Title: decreasing inflation
Post by: Torben on April 17, 2012, 04:05:54 pm
how about the option to buy weaponupgrades (loompoints) from the bank?  this way,  p/p loompoint prices would be capped,  money would be taken out of the market, etc etc.

730-770k id say would be fine.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Andswaru on April 17, 2012, 04:12:47 pm
Sounds like a very sensible suggestion. 10/10 for clear thinking. Maybe set the price a bit lower, but otherwise I like it.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kafein on April 17, 2012, 04:27:55 pm
Doing it like that will have no effect until we reach the fixed heirloom price, then it will kill heirloom point sellers and nerf retirement even further than it is now.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: beniliusbob on April 17, 2012, 04:31:29 pm
it will ... nerf retirement even further than it is now.

I agree. Old characters already have plenty of advantages; getting the option to spend your piles and piles of gold DIRECTLY on heirlooms, instead of trying to set up a good trade, would be pretty imbalanced. Especially since it will mean fewer people--or, no people at all--retiring, so everyone will always be superbeefcake-in-a-tincan-with-looms. All the good players would just max out to level 35 or whatever.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: PanPan on April 17, 2012, 04:32:40 pm
I would say it's a good Idea to make Players able to buy Loompoints from the Market so it would force players to sell they're loompoints cheaper...
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kafein on April 17, 2012, 04:35:06 pm
I would say it's a good Idea to make Players able to buy Loompoints from the Market so it would force players to sell they're loompoints cheaper...

You aren't much into economics aren't you ?

Fixing a price won't force people to sell what they sold cheaper. They will just stop selling.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: bosco on April 17, 2012, 04:38:27 pm
And what if they'd starve if they didn't go below the official price in order to compete?
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Andswaru on April 17, 2012, 04:48:12 pm
You aren't much into economics aren't you ?

Fixing a price won't force people to sell what they sold cheaper. They will just stop selling.

you never bought blackmarket cigerettes then?
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Rhygar666 on April 17, 2012, 04:50:13 pm
I agree. Old characters already have plenty of advantages; getting the option to spend your piles and piles of gold DIRECTLY on heirlooms,
wrong you spend the piles (i dont see any piles btw) on repair cost (well unless your a ninja, archer or peasent leecher), and often i only earn money if im on x4-5 and even then i get massive items to repair and earn nothing. So it would take weeks rather monts till you got enough money to buy a loom.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Dexxtaa on April 17, 2012, 04:55:37 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_peng%C5%91_hyperinflation#Hyperinflation

This is what's happening.

The difference between what we have for an economy, and what the real world has for an economy, is that the government actually steps in to create artificial price ceilings and floors for the control of the economy.

Bear in mind that prices will continue to increase at a ridiculous rate, sometimes a little slower, but don't be surprised if the prices reach 5million for a +3 in a year.

Money in this game literally comes out of nowhere, so prices will continue to escalate, until something stems the flow of 'infinite' money. 

Money isn't being circulated so much as generated right now.

Basic supply and demand. In this case, the supply of money keep increasing, while the demand for heirlooms continue to increase. The market tries to create a balance (eq), but since both are rising, the market keeps chasing the eq to literally infinity.

Which is how it's going to continue to develop. It's just how the market works.

But the new players and peasants get screwed. Eventually the "no upkeep" workaround (not fix) will not be able to keep up with the prices, and will have to be extended.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kafein on April 17, 2012, 05:01:48 pm
you never bought blackmarket cigerettes then?

Nope. And I don't really see you point, a fixed price isn't a tax. Circumventing a tax makes you earn more money. Selling under some fixed price when you want to sell for more... doesn't, quite the opposite actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_peng%C5%91_hyperinflation#Hyperinflation

This is what's happening.

The difference between what we have for an economy, and what the real world has for an economy, is that the government actually steps in to create artificial price ceilings and floors for the control of the economy.

Bear in mind that prices will continue to increase at a ridiculous rate, sometimes a little slower, but don't be surprised if the prices reach 5million for a +3 in a year.

Money in this game literally comes out of nowhere, so prices will continue to escalate, until something stems the flow of 'infinite' money. 

Money isn't being circulated so much as generated right now.

Basic supply and demand. In this case, the supply of money keep increasing, while the demand for heirlooms continue to increase. The market tries to create a balance (eq), but since both are rising, the market keeps chasing the eq to literally infinity.

Which is how it's going to continue to develop. It's just how the market works.

But the new players and peasants get screwed. Eventually the "no upkeep" workaround (not fix) will not be able to keep up with the prices, and will have to be extended.

There are many many better ways to deal with inflation. Basically selling things like cosmetic stuff, a 4th heirloom grade, metagame features (respec without a xp loss, transferring the main char status to an alt), putting fees on marketplace transactions...
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Miwiw on April 17, 2012, 05:06:20 pm
It sounds like a good idea, however loompoints should only be available by players. That is what is another great point about crpg. If you want to improve your items, you either retire yourself or you interact with other players aka. buy your looms from other players.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: MrShine on April 17, 2012, 05:07:30 pm
Remind me why inflation is such a bad thing again?  Seems to me it helps low gen players who need money for equipment/repairs.  As long as the market is stable in one direction it helps people invest in looms and turn a gold profit later.

The only people it doesn't help directly are the people with low gold who don't plan on retiring.  Yet...they get the benefit of high levels, so again, why is inflation such a bad thing?
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Torben on April 17, 2012, 05:07:49 pm
It sounds like a good idea, however loompoints should only be available by players. That is what is another great point about crpg. If you want to improve your items, you either retire yourself or you interact with other players aka. buy your looms from other players.


so you suggest a loompoint price limit?
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Dexxtaa on April 17, 2012, 05:10:41 pm
It's not inflation that's a bad thing.

It's the fact that the money is literally coming from nowhere.

We fight and get paid by some god that we can't see in in-game gold that we spend on in-game things.

This money comes out of nowhere. At least in the old gold system, it would simulate us actually looting gold from the bodies we killed. Now we can literally hide in a barrel and somehow pull gold from butt fuck nowhere.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kafein on April 17, 2012, 05:11:32 pm
Remind me why inflation is such a bad thing again?  Seems to me it helps low gen players who need money for equipment/repairs.  As long as the market is stable in one direction it helps people invest in looms and turn a gold profit later.

The only people it doesn't help directly are the people with low gold who don't plan on retiring.  Yet...they get the benefit of high levels, so again, why is inflation such a bad thing?

It is a bad thing because it changes the metagame. Everything you can buy from the game with gold (aka, fixed price) becomes worthless. At the moment it's only items and upkeep, the latter being quite a central game mechanic (even though I would personally prefer seeing it gone).
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Torben on April 17, 2012, 05:11:41 pm
Remind me why inflation is such a bad thing again?  Seems to me it helps low gen players who need money for equipment/repairs.  As long as the market is stable in one direction it helps people invest in looms and turn a gold profit later.

The only people it doesn't help directly are the people with low gold who don't plan on retiring.  Yet...they get the benefit of high levels, so again, why is inflation such a bad thing?


you mean profit in terms of having money to pay upkeep?  because a profit to buy other heirlooms is practically non existent,  as the HL prices rise.  so every second you are not invested in a good heirloom,  makes you loose money
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Dexxtaa on April 17, 2012, 05:15:19 pm
Remind me why inflation is such a bad thing again?  Seems to me it helps low gen players who need money for equipment/repairs. 

Eventually the "no upkeep" workaround (not fix) will not be able to keep up with the prices, and will have to be extended.

In-game currency is losing its value at a pretty high rate. Even the no-upkeep until level 25 thing is going to start affecting the peasants, since they have no way of building a large enough gold stockpile (even with heirloom sales) fast enough to keep up with the market.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kafein on April 17, 2012, 05:16:21 pm
This money comes out of nowhere. At least in the old gold system, it would simulate us actually looting gold from the bodies we killed. Now we can literally hide in a barrel and somehow pull gold from butt fuck nowhere.

Well it doesn't feel the same but the old system with a marketplace would also see inflation. The money comes from nowhere because when you get that money, nobody else loses it. A game without inflation would work like that, with winners taking money from losers, people being paid when you spend on upkeep... That kind of things.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Dexxtaa on April 17, 2012, 05:18:02 pm
Well it doesn't feel the same but the old system with a marketplace would also see inflation. The money comes from nowhere because when you get that money, nobody else loses it. A game without inflation would work like that, with winners taking money from losers, people being paid when you spend on upkeep... That kind of things.

But then again, we got gold at a REALLY slow rate. So it was worth more. But yes, you're right that the money still came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: MrShine on April 17, 2012, 05:20:46 pm
People already have gold coming out of their ears, I know that I haven't worried about gold or upkeep in like.. 15 generations.  The metagame side regarding gear upkeep is already borked and has been for ages.  Future inflation isn't going to make that problem any worse than it already is.


you mean profit in terms of having money to pay upkeep?  because a profit to buy other heirlooms is practically non existent,  as the HL prices rise.  so every second you are not invested in a good heirloom,  makes you loose money
But whenever HL prices rise other looms rise with it.  Almost anything you buy now will likely gain value in the future, IE you will gain gold.  Of course the value of gold in the market will diminish, but all you need to do is sell one loom point and you're back in the "game".

In-game currency is losing its value at a pretty high rate. Even the no-upkeep until level 25 thing is going to start affecting the peasants, since they have no way of building a large enough gold stockpile (even with heirloom sales) fast enough to keep up with the market.

But all a gen 1 player needs to do is retire, and bam whatever the current going rate for heirloom points are, that's how much gold they can make if they sell it.  Regardless of the going rate, they should be able to buy a different +1 on the market for cheaper AND still have gold left-over to cover repair costs.  The higher heirloom prices go, the greater this margin will likely be and the more excess gold these new players will likely have.

If anything new players are helped the most with the inflation.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Turboflex on April 17, 2012, 05:33:29 pm
MrShine is right in a lot of ways there is basically nothing wrong with inflation as long as it's stable. It actually helps new players at the moment, you sell your gen 1 loompoint and bam 600k, they won't have to worry about gold anymore, go buy a +1 on market for 400k and still have enough leftover to try out any weapon or armour they fancy.

The ONLY bad thing about inflation is that it erodes the strength of maintanence as a balance mechanic. It becomes trivial to finance being an expensive cavalry or plate crutcher which is why you are seeing so many more of them now. The solution to this is for the devs to raise all current item prices, I would say by 50% to start, so things return to where they were  a few months ago.

Interestingly, it seems prices have fallen the past month or so. Loom prices were 625-700k and now have fallen to 550-625k. More people selling instead of self looming perhaps? Drop off in demand now after there was a spike due to new armours being release?
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Materia on April 17, 2012, 05:42:49 pm
Doing it like that will have no effect until we reach the fixed heirloom price, then it will kill heirloom point sellers and nerf retirement even further than it is now.

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Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Khalim on April 17, 2012, 06:23:12 pm
The only way to influence worth of money is changing repair cost AND the usefulness of wearing armor.

In the long run Loompoints will lose value and cost less gold, but on the other hand it depends how much gold is SAVED through player.
Some may spend more then they get and some spend less.

Allowing player to buy Loompoints would change nothing.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Ganner on April 17, 2012, 07:36:18 pm
The only way to solve this issue would be to add goldsinks.

Add an option to respec for 500k instead of using xp, increasingly more expensive the higher level and/or more you use it.  Add status items that cost ridiculous amounts of gold but look amazing.

These are stupid ideas that wont work for a number of reasons, but they do show my point.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Torben on April 17, 2012, 07:38:45 pm
yes!! add this superstyler helmet in the shop for 2 million!!!

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Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Angantyr on April 17, 2012, 07:42:01 pm
Loom prices seem to have dropped again slightly the last few weeks to about 600k for a loom, where last month they topped with 800k and most were sold in the 650-700k range.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Brrrak on April 17, 2012, 07:47:10 pm
The solution is actually quite simple everyone, I don't know why no one's brought this up.

Just have chadz take a few thousand gold from every one of us, and give it to the admins, so they can fix the economy.

Duhhh  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Arathian on April 17, 2012, 07:57:01 pm
The only way to solve this issue would be to add goldsinks.

Add an option to respec for 500k instead of using xp, increasingly more expensive the higher level and/or more you use it.  Add status items that cost ridiculous amounts of gold but look amazing.

These are stupid ideas that wont work for a number of reasons, but they do show my point.

As an economist, this guy has it right.

OP: fixed price will only decrease the price of the looms while leaving the rest of the items, like weapons, armor etc still inflating to crazy levels. it will fix nothing.


This suggestion is right. We need optional money dumps or new money dumps NOT connected to already existing futures. A good suggestion I saw from another thread is adding a level 4 loom for 5m gold or so. It won't hurt any already existing market and hugely hit inflation as thousands of players try to get 5m gold to upgrade their favorite weapon just to dump it out of the circulation. It could fix inflation within a week, maybe less.




A bigger suggestion that I have, which could work without creating huge turmoil in the market: make prices variable according to demand. if a lot of people are buying a weapon, the weapon's price should go up, if nobody is buying it for a lot of time, make it go down etc. This will give incentive to buy weapons at lower prices to sell when the prices go higher. It will, essentially, create a stock market where people will want to give their gold for weapons even when they don't have a direct need for them.

Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: a_bear_irl on April 17, 2012, 08:07:59 pm
yeah imo more goldsinks are the answer, pay a million gold to name an item, full namechange for 50k, also re:loompoint prices, if there was a system to sell them on the ingame market i'm pretty sure the price would drop
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Torben on April 17, 2012, 08:36:45 pm
OP: fixed price will only decrease the price of the looms while leaving the rest of the items, like weapons, armor etc still inflating to crazy levels. it will fix nothing.

id say weapon prices are linked to loompoint prices...
nevermind,  golddump link:

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,30314.msg445246.html#msg445246
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Leshma on April 17, 2012, 08:40:13 pm
Add an option to respec for 500k instead of using xp, increasingly more expensive the higher level and/or more you use it.

I heard that someone is working on this, we'll see if that's true.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Ramsay on April 17, 2012, 09:09:36 pm
People worry to much about the prices. So what if +3 will cost 6 mil gold? You'll just sell your loom point for 2 mil or more. But here's the real danger!!!

A first generation newcomer will retire and sell his +1 loom for 2 million on the market. Now he'll buy a plated charger, full black armor etc.  With 2 mil gold he can afford upkeep until next retirement.

Imagine a server full of peasant skill level tincans, plated chargers bumping everything into oblivion... And we will have another age of tincan wars. Just what all the sane members of this community wanted to avoid :)
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kyza on April 18, 2012, 01:18:41 am
The only way to solve this issue would be to add goldsinks.

Ding.

Eve is a great example of a game that has spent a lot of time evaluating gold faucets (gold coming out of nowhere) and gold sinks (in cRPG, this is pretty much limited to upkeep and purchasing your base equipment).  Since the problem is price of looms, the other side of the equation is the quantity of new 'looms', which is characters retiring. 

So either you decrease the gold faucet, increase the gold sink, or reduce the time it takes to retire.  The quickest and simplest solution to correct any perceived imbalance would be to create significant gold sinks to cause people with huge stockpiles to burn cash.  Implementing a +4 solution will not fix any problem, it will simply create another market that will continue to escalate - because you will go straight back to the gold/loom equation.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Civilian on April 18, 2012, 01:39:50 am
We fight and get paid by some god that we can't see in in-game gold that we spend on in-game things.

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We fight for his amusement.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: oprah_winfrey on April 18, 2012, 02:00:51 am
I don't see much of a problem with the system that is in place right now. The way I see it, the marketplace has finally figured out how much loom points are. The community as a whole had no bearing of what a loompoint should cost, and over time players have been raising their prices and people are still buying them. It looks like loompoints have been somewhat stable for the past few weeks.

I also don't understand why players want everyone to make less money, I hear people complaining about how everyone is wearing plate and riding heavy horses, but I don't see packs of plated chargers and people running around in full plate 24/7.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Arathian on April 18, 2012, 02:35:55 am
I don't see much of a problem with the system that is in place right now. The way I see it, the marketplace has finally figured out how much loom points are. The community as a whole had no bearing of what a loompoint should cost, and over time players have been raising their prices and people are still buying them. It looks like loompoints have been somewhat stable for the past few weeks.

I also don't understand why players want everyone to make less money, I hear people complaining about how everyone is wearing plate and riding heavy horses, but I don't see packs of plated chargers and people running around in full plate 24/7.

If the inflation continues and money loses more and more value until it becomes meaningless, you will.


After all, the reason you don't see tincans everywhere is because potential tincans are afraid to lose gold (=value) and thus downgrade their gear. When the loss of value no longer occurs, there is no reason not be a tincan.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Zaren on April 18, 2012, 03:15:13 am
for the moment, at least the way I do it is invest in items. I have all my money tied into items that seem to be wanted and since all loom prices are rising(some quicker than others) I am "making" money all the time. If I use a reasonable value on each loom I have to what it usually sells for(no 1.8 mill crap prices) then in the last month I have gained roughly 1.3 mil. However its important to note that I have truly gained a lot less real value than that since gold has inflated so much. I have gained more like what would be the worth of 300k a month ago. What im trying to point out is that a good way to not lose money is by not holding onto your money as gold and investing it since Items are going up, but your gold is not.
Putting a set gold amount in crpg that would slowly go up(yes inflation is necessary, its a part of real world economics) would also help. Maybe using the old kill to gain money system but having the person who died lose maybe 3/4 of the gold that the other guy would gain unless the guy who died was under level 20 first gen in which case he wouldnt lose money might work. ex. player 1 kills player 2: player 1 makes 1000 player 2 looses 750. If you were on a x2 however it would only benefit the player who got the kill making him earn more but the dead player still lose the same. That would reduce the mass gold creation in crpg which is creating massive inflation.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Gawin on April 18, 2012, 03:26:40 am
What if we cap a limit on how much money there is in the game? to enter a round you pay a fee, if you win depending on how you performed you get a certain amount of gold. That way we actually have a legit system to where nothing can be a crazy ridiculous price.
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kenji on April 18, 2012, 03:28:17 am
you never bought blackmarket cigerettes then?
Nope. And I don't really see you point, a fixed price isn't a tax. Circumventing a tax makes you earn more money. Selling under some fixed price when you want to sell for more... doesn't, quite the opposite actually.
If anyone hasn't pointed it out, I believe he meant something like weed in the US :mrgreen:
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Zaren on April 18, 2012, 03:31:54 am
What if we cap a limit on how much money there is in the game? to enter a round you pay a fee, if you win depending on how you performed you get a certain amount of gold. That way we actually have a legit system to where nothing can be a crazy ridiculous price.
and when you run out of money? you cant play?
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Brrrak on April 18, 2012, 03:51:25 am
yes inflation is necessary, its a part of real world economics

Sure, inflation is necessary.

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Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Gawin on April 18, 2012, 03:53:42 am
and when you run out of money? you cant play?
called a loan from the legit bank of c-rpg or sell a loompoint at lower than 730k
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Kelugarn on April 18, 2012, 04:30:31 am
Remind me again why having loomed items cost more to repair is a bad thing? (From an economics standpoint, because realistically they would be more costly to maintain.)
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Zaren on April 18, 2012, 04:59:09 am
called a loan from the legit bank of c-rpg or sell a loompoint at lower than 730k
I don't really like the pay to play thing... but I do like the original kills for cash idea that original crpg had, just maybe have a set limit(or very slowly rising amount) of money
Title: Re: decreasing inflation
Post by: Arathian on April 18, 2012, 05:54:31 am
Remind me again why having loomed items cost more to repair is a bad thing? (From an economics standpoint, because realistically they would be more costly to maintain.)

Because it will only make people stop using looms just like the introduction of repairs simply made people use other armors than tincan. The money spent on repairs overall won't change. You will just re-re-re-nerf progress.