cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 08:00:12 pm

Title: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 08:00:12 pm
Which is generally superior? I STF a guy to try out a ranged build but am having trouble deciding.

[rant]The annoying thing about this mod is how you get locked into something...I spent hours yesterday doing nothing but dying in shitty clothes and a wooden pole trying to save money and putting points into a build I don't even know if I'll like. There is nothing I can do to a guy with armor and a shit ton of iron flesh and power strike. I can hit him 4 times, but if I catch a glancing blow on the knuckles I crumple in a heap and have to wait 5 minutes for the round to end.[/rant]
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Zandieer on April 10, 2012, 08:15:17 pm
First of all, the question I present you is: do you like crossbows or archery in Native more? Have you played native multiplayer?

Both of those weapons are viable, and fun to use in cRPG. But they're a lot different. Both are slowed down A LOT, because the native speed is just silly. Bows deal less damage, but are faster but generally need more skill to be good. Crossbows still need good aim, and battle awareness isn't going to hurt, either. Personally I like crossbows more. It's relaxing to aim, shoot, and hit (or kill!) someone, and then just go chill out while reloading your slooooow crossbow. Bows are more hectic. I'll leave that stuff for the pros.

For crossbows, all you need is the str requirement the xbow has, and WPF. Generally 110-160 would be good. 120-160 would make your life a lot easier. Crossbows cost more, btw, so be aware. No skill increases your dmg with xbows.

For bows, you need the str AND the PD (it's the bows requirement) and the more PD you have, the better. And for bow users, wpf is crucial. So get it to max. 160-ish. PD increases your dmg with bows, but only up to 4 more PD than the requirement the bow has.

WPF makes your shot more accurate, and faster to reload.

And I'd say if you go archer, don't take melee :) Even if people complain, your main tactic is to be in the move, shoot baddies, retreat when enemies get near, and stay behind heavy infantry. You're not supposed to go and fight with a sword, only when you absolutely need to.

Crossbows:
+Nice dmg
+Easy
-Cost a lot
-Slow
-Everyone hates them lol

Bows:
+Cheap
+Fast
-Low dmg for unloomed stuff
-Everyone hates them, too lol

When you decide what class you'll go for, let me give you some builds for your character:

Crossbow
(click to show/hide)

Archer:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 08:44:36 pm
Thanks, I generally played horse archers in native single player. I've never played multiplayer, two days ago was my first time since I've bought Warband like 2 years ago. I'm leaning towards Archer, but I saw a lot of guys on horses using crossbows...so that made me wonder. I wanted to go horse archer, but people here told me not to, because I'm new and something about upkeep.

One thing I will say, there are waaaay too many guys running around with 2 handers. Generally in a multiplayer game when you see everybody doing the same thing, it's pretty indicative of balance issues.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Grumbs on April 10, 2012, 08:55:56 pm

One thing I will say, there are waaaay too many guys running around with 2 handers. Generally in a multiplayer game when you see everybody doing the same thing, it's pretty indicative of balance issues.
The melee combat system in this game is what attracts most to it, so you will find people doing melee regardless of balance. Without manual blocking and overall depth of melee I wouldn't even play the game, I feel like its a waste to play a game like this with a ranged character.

Ranged adds some kind of variety to it all, makes you consider your position a bit, but it should only ever be support damage when its not even real PVP style combat most of the time. You don't have to get the last hit to be useful for the team, any damage you do from range helps the team overall
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 09:08:05 pm
Ranged vs melee argument aside, because that's not what I'm talking about....there are way too many two handed users. And the combat system is garbage, it always has been. The game is still fun based on its setting and allowing people to run around and kill each other in armor and shit, but the actual mechanics are a joke. The reason everyone uses two handers is because it's easier to just goon people with power strikes. I did spectator a lot yesterday, there were really no battles where skill was going on, it was a cluster**** mass of dudes just spamming attack for the most part. I did see some good fights, but that's rare, it's mostly just guys wildly swinging two handers because that's easiest.

Actually getting really good with a bow seems challenging and to me more interesting than being a soup can with a two hander...just my opinion. I understand why people like it.

With power draw and weapon proficiency, does the bows damage become anything comparable to the xbow?
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Vexus on April 10, 2012, 09:23:59 pm
It's a medieval game if you want ranged only go play CoD or Battlefield.

This is the only multiplayer game which has some focus on melee players plus having to manual block you NEED some skill. Sure spamming is frequent and in big fights it can net you some kills but overall if you manage to be in a team that works together spammers die first.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 09:37:27 pm
Where did I say anything about ranged only? I didn't. It's like the other guy misreading the comment about the preponderance of two handers.

Working together has nothing to do with combat weapons skill, that's called teamwork. The combat system is absolutely rudimentary. It's hilarious when people consider blocking so skillful. It's a button to swing and a button to block, then you can direct the block. There is a very low ceiling for skill. And that's not what I'm talking about anyways...people keep replying with comments based on poor reading comprehension...
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Grumbs on April 10, 2012, 09:43:52 pm
Thanks, I generally played horse archers in native single player. I've never played multiplayer, two days ago was my first time since I've bought Warband like 2 years ago.

You're entitled to an opinion, but to me the skill ceiling is insanely high. You should see some of the better players. The skill curve is also pretty steep until you get the basic hang of it and the skill floor is 10x higher than most multi player games

You can't compare it to pointing and clicking with fast projectiles though, that is nowhere near the skill floor/ceiling of melee. Its so one sided, not really player vs player
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 10:07:49 pm
I'm not trying to get into a fucking argument about this...it all started from you misreading a comment and turning this shit into an inane melee vs archery argument that i'm not interested in. It was a comment on how there are too many two-handerscompared to other melee types, such as shield and sword or even polearms to a degree. Quit it, i don't give a shit. If you hilariously think mount and blade requires more skill than battlefield 3, then go on thinking it, because I don't give a shit and I don't feel like arguing about it.

I wish a mod would remove any post that wasn't pertaining to my main question about crossbows and and bows.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Digglez on April 10, 2012, 10:10:34 pm
you can contribute ALOT more with unloomed xbows than you can unloomed bows.  Unloomed bows are just an exercise in frustration.

Hit someone with bow and they shrug it off and keep steaming for you.  Hit'em with an xbow and they start looking for cover...if they can still manage to walk
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 10:11:27 pm
you can contribute ALOT more with unloomed xbows than you can unloomed bows.  Unloomed bows are just an exercise in frustration

Why? I still don't understand this loom business. I saw a lot of mounted crossbowmen, is that pretty viable?
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Cup1d on April 10, 2012, 10:14:58 pm
You'll be very disapointed with cRPG archery in comparison with Native archery. Especially with cRPG Horse Archery.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Grumbs on April 10, 2012, 10:35:36 pm
Actually you declared there was a balance issue after 2 days of experience in multiplayer m&b and I commented on it.

Thanks, I generally played horse archers in native single player. I've never played multiplayer, two days ago was my first time since I've bought Warband like 2 years ago. I'm leaning towards Archer, but I saw a lot of guys on horses using crossbows...so that made me wonder. I wanted to go horse archer, but people here told me not to, because I'm new and something about upkeep.

One thing I will say, there are waaaay too many guys running around with 2 handers. Generally in a multiplayer game when you see everybody doing the same thing, it's pretty indicative of balance issues.

Lol @ BF3 btw, totally different type of game
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Vexus on April 10, 2012, 10:36:43 pm
You said the combat is a joke (Clearly referring to melee) and that playing without a shield which only needs to right click to block every direction is easier. (Yes it's easier to having no protection from ranged, having 4 blocking directions and fighting vs people that can feint and chamber instead of bots.)

Clearly I didn't misread anything.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But anyway the difference between a crossbow and a bow is:

Crossbow-

Good:
- A crossbow is very damaging.
- Doesn't need stats spent on it apart of WM for faster reloading and better accuracy as nothing from the skills affects it's damage.
- And unlike bows you could remain still aiming the whole round and your aim will remain the same.

Bad:
- The reloading is very slow.
- You can't walk while reloading unlike bows (Apart of the last part of the animation if you time it correctly. This is when your on the ground it doesn't affect you when your on a horse.) making you an easy target for other rangers/cav/melee.
- Crossbow is the only ranged weapon that can break. (If someone hits you or bumps you while your shooting there's a chance the crossbow will break for the whole round.)
- And during rainy days your damage will be severely lowered.

Bows-

Good:
- You can be fast, powerful or something in the middle depending on your build.
- You can reload while walking.
- Holding your shot will deal more damage.
- Bows can't break.
- If your good at aiming you can destroy a team with headshots as currently ranged weapons deals a shit ton of damage into the face.
- And you have 2 choices on arrows (Cut or pierce) for armour variants.

Bad:
- Unless you get high PD your damage on body/legs will be weaker than a crossbow. (Thank god)
- Unlike crossbows, bows need a balance of PD and WM if they want accuracy.
- Rain affects bows damage too so if your damage is already low expect to deal 0 during rainy days which is 50% of the times.
- Since bows are faster, arrows run dry fast so you'll need more arrows equipped.
- Most archers either use 1 slot weapon or they run like a my old friend kiting you. (Not calling you my old friend, just the running all the time archers.)
- Since you use more slots for arrows a bigger chance on a heftier repair on arrows since each one has a chance to break with bodkin not being exactly cheap.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What all this has to do with horse archer/crossbow? Pretty much everything.

Horse crossbow is more used because like I said, crossbows doesn't require any stats for their damage, you only need enough strength to use them. People can make 12/30 characters and ride fast horses with no melee weapons but if your good as horse archer you can be VERY annoying in downing enemy cav and shooting in groups of enemies.

Well that's pretty much it.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 10:42:56 pm
There we go, that's the stuff. Thanks.

Does the powerdraw component make the bows deal damage anywhere in the range of a crossbow?

Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Ronin on April 10, 2012, 10:45:11 pm
You said the combat is a joke (Clearly referring to melee) and that playing without a shield which only needs to right click to block every direction is easier. (Yes it's easier to having no protection from ranged, having 4 blocking directions and fighting vs people that can feint and chamber instead of bots.)

Clearly I didn't misread anything.

Well, it is harder to time with a shield, one handed weapons are much more shorter and do less damage. Also shorter weapon forces the player to go with low armor. Not to mention it costs around 5 extra skill points to the shield skill. For a noob, it is much more easier to grab a two handed greatsword, wear heavy armor and spam. Which is a good strategy against 70% of players considering you can survive much more hits.

As for the ranged debate, don't go for a ranged until 7th gen (mw ammo and mw bow/xbow). Of course you can try throwing.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: PanPan on April 10, 2012, 10:47:11 pm
Xbows are more accurate. Quite hard with beginner ranged charcters to play Archery imo.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 10:52:18 pm
Well, it is harder to time with a shield, one handed weapons are much more shorter and do less damage. Also shorter weapon forces the player to go with low armor. Not to mention it costs around 5 extra skill points to the shield skill. For a noob, it is much more easier to grab a two handed greatsword, wear heavy armor and spam. Which is a good strategy against 70% of players considering you can survive much more hits.

As for the ranged debate, don't go for a ranged until 7th gen (mw ammo and mw bow/xbow). Of course you can try throwing.

7 gen? what is that...

Not gonna wait a hundred hours to play something. I have a life.

I'm not trying to rule the world or be super powerful...just to mess around and have fun.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Vexus on April 10, 2012, 10:56:53 pm
Edited the post to be more clear.

But no you most probably can't get the same damage of an arbalest (Which can 1 hit kill or 80-90% damage) else bows would be very OP since they can shoot fast and don't need to stop for like 10 seconds to reload.

Still you CAN use a build that deals high damage with bows and people can certainly help you in that tough I fear you won't be satisfied with the damage if you intend on being a horse archer (Since being horse archer you obviously need riding and the Horse Archery skills learned with the latter the higher the better since you get an accuracy nerf when using a bow/crossbow on a horse.).
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: callahan9119 on April 10, 2012, 10:58:43 pm
Edited the post to be more clear.

But no you most probably can't get the same damage of an arbalest (Which can 1 hit kill or 80-90% damage) else bows would be very OP since they can shoot fast and don't need to stop for like 10 seconds to reload.

Still you CAN use a build that deals high damage with bows and people can certainly help you in that tough I fear you won't be satisfied with the damage if you intend on being a horse archer (Since being horse archer you obviously need riding and the Horse Archery skills learned with the latter the higher the better since you get an accuracy nerf when using a bow/crossbow on a horse.).

Nah, I'll just take your advice and run like a my old friend.
Title: Re: Crossbow or Bow for a ranged character?
Post by: Mallets on April 11, 2012, 02:01:01 am
And the combat system is garbage, it always has been.

Ok... I basically stopped reading after this... which I know means I'll be unhelpful with your actual question (forgive me).  And maybe you, or someone else, already covered/cleared this up... but I'm going to comment anyways!


I first bought and played M&B about 4 years ago... back when it was in Beta (I think around v.5 something).  I was immediately amazing at the combat system.  You actually hit folks.  You actually feel like you are purposely swinging the weapon.  I was amazed that it took some independent game company (basically one guy, forget the creators name) to make such a game.

Now here it is 4 years later... and I'm amazed there's still no companies making a game with such combat.  I actual started enjoying The Elder Scroll games less because their combat was not up to par with M&B (not knocking these great games... great RPG games!).

I personally think that the combat system of M&B is in a league of it's own.  Name some games that have combat that is as realistic as this.  Not that it's perfect... but there's nothing out like it.  Nothing from all those big-wig greedy-as-fuck companies that highly market all these shit games they cram out.  Don't get me wrong... I think by now (4 years later) that one of those super-rich, mega game-publishing companies should have improved on it... and but out the best game ever.  But they haven't.  They put out shit.  And M&B still reigns!

Not to mention just how creative this game was when it first came on the scene (years ago now).  That's really a moot point... but still should be mentioned.


Anyways, I hope you get the info you need from other folks.  Just HAD to rant/rage about your comment.  I don't get it!

And please, share your side of the story.  If there is a game with truly better (more realistic) melee combat than M&B... please, please tell me!  I'd love to play!  It'd have to be amazing!