cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: El_Infante on March 12, 2011, 05:27:02 pm
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I think that this two new polearms, needs a bit of love on next patch. Why?
While all melee weapons in CRPG have four attack directions, this two have only two directions. It is a great disadvantage. It makes that weapons hard to play with it, so I think, EB and SH needs other advantages that make both a good choice to play with it.
Swiss Halberd 6285
weight 3.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 91
weapon length 162
swing damage 37, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
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English Bill 7589
weight 4
requirement 14
spd rtng 89
weapon length 174
swing damage 31, pierce
thrust damage 28 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Let's take a look at other polearms. For example Bec de Corbin.
Bec de Corbin 7312
weight 2.8
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 120
swing damage 36, pierce
thrust damage 26 pierce
Why a shorter weapon (Bec) have more damage with 120 weapon length that a bill that have +54 reach? I suppose that the more longer and the more weight weapon have, the more damage have to do. Take a look at weapon weight (EB -> 4, BeC -> 2.8) For example, we have Great Long Bardiche.
Great Long Bardiche 10746
weight 3.75
requirement 18
spd rtng 88
weapon length 155
swing damage !!!!47!!!!!, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
This weapon have: -20 range. +16 damage (pierce vs cut) and the most important thing. The more base damage weapon have, the more final damage you get with power strike. I have suggestions for both weapons.
English Bill 7589
weight 4
requirement 14
spd rtng 87
weapon length 174
swing damage 40, pierce
thrust damage 33 pierce
Unbalanced
Can't use on horseback
With 2 points less on speed rating, and 9 additional points on swing damage, it make English Bill a good choice for "support playing". I welcome all new ideas to improve this weapons.
Swiss Halberd 6285
weight 4
requirement 18
spd rtng 89
weapon length 162
swing damage 48 cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Unbalanced
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
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Awlpikes.
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It's a balancing thing i believe, just as the Pike is overhand/poke only. With that amount of range/dmg and the piercing dmg part (very important indeed) it would be considered extremely overpowered.
just my two coppers.
Mith
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Don't forget that Bec de Corbin have 36 Pierce dmg and have 4 directions attack. And it is fast as hell (93 speed). It's only a suggestion. Another suggestion is giving them 4 directions attack lowering speed or range.
Nowadays, EB and SH are useless weapons. You can say "I know someone that rocks with .. ". Ok. I can say after that this man rocks x2 with another weapon like GLA/GLB or Long Hafted Blade.
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you know what man my alt has a +1 bill and if you know how to use it, it decimates teams if you play massed infantry guy mode(33p, 30p are its attacks for +1), because between the overhead and stab you can direct alot of headshots/hits on armor are good too with pierce
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It's a balancing thing i believe, just as the Pike is overhand/poke only.
just my two coppers.
Mith
The Pike is thrust only.
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The Pike is thrust only.
What about overhead? or you think it's there just for decoration?
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What about overhead? or you think it's there just for decoration?
Mabye he's thinking about new patch. AFAIK pike is gonna lose overhead ^^
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Mabye he's thinking about new patch. AFAIK pike is gonna lose overhead ^^
How come? it will be almost useless with thrust only (I said almost).
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ptx on irc said it's stupid and unrealistic, thus has to go.
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Lol next patch keeps on getting interesting everyday it passes..
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What about overhead? or you think it's there just for decoration?
That's right. If you're still using it, you're doing it wrong.
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I tried Bill and Halberd and they don't work for me. Maybe someone else can get them to work, but I do better with Military Fork.
As for Pike losing overhead, agree with everything Ptx supposedly said. Pike is great support weapon but overhead is unrealistic. Moreover, Pike should be one of the most expensive polearm weapons the way it is now.
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Swiss Halberd and Bill are fine, honestly. I've loomed the halberd twice already and believe me, it's fucking scary. The face that it's not unbalanced, coupled with the fact that it's got a bonus against shields and has crazy length and power make it pretty powerful as it is.
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Ashwood Pike need some love too!
I remember on Mount & Blade SP the Swadian Sergeants with Ashwood Pike were terrifying.
Here this weapon is too slow besides being short. :|
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Wtf. Where is the info about pike losing overhead? This is just great. Everytime chadz changes something he screws my build. And I dont even know how to play the freaking game properly. FFS :twisted:
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Pike is soooo good as a support role. Overhead from it is entirely unrealistic but so is one person blocking ten pikes at a time with his short sword. I prefer overhead gone simply for the sake that it is entirely silly to be using a pike as a dueling weapon. At least this makes the Swiss an appetizing option for those who want to forsake a little bit of range for another attack direction. It seems like a support weapon, much like the pike. Imagine the tk's this thing would cause if you gave it 4 directions.
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English Bill 7589
weight 4
requirement 14
spd rtng 87
weapon length 174
swing damage 40, pierce
thrust damage 33 pierce
Unbalanced
Can't use on horseback
Swiss Halberd 6285
weight 4
requirement 18
spd rtng 89
weapon length 162
swing damage 48 cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Unbalanced
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
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Making them unbalanced with ruin both weapons. Right now they can strike all most as fast as a "normal" weapon, but if they were unbalanced, I doubt they would be of any use 1on1 :(
They are fine right now.
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Making them unbalanced with ruin both weapons. Right now they can strike all most as fast as a "normal" weapon, but if they were unbalanced, I doubt they would be of any use 1on1 :(
They are fine right now.
Yeah, if you want to "buff" these two weapons by nerfing them, better dont do anything.
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i think i remember some talk about Jago's formulas being applied to most weapons next patch.
that should leave the speed of the two polearms in questions at something around 118 and the damage around 56.
ALL HAIL JAGO!
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I think they need +2, +3, or +4 cut at least and just +2 on the thrust.
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no they dont. I can name many people off the top of my head that use two directional weapons and consistantly get top scores. Plus i doubt anyone wants to see these weapons turn into a rediculously op version of the long voulge
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I agree with the OP. These weapons are pretty weak for their cost. Give them additional attack directions or something for petes sake.
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ptx on irc said it's stupid and unrealistic, thus has to go.
What the...
I never said that...
O_o
OMG DONT NERF MAH PIKE!!1
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Lol, I distinctly remember conversation with you, where you said it's idiotic that you can overhead with 3m long stick and that pike will lose it.
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Huh? When was that?
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Not sure, few weeks ago maybe, can't really give you exact date.
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You sure you ain't confusing me with cmpxchg8b? Because i've never said that and don't really want it.
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Yeah, I guess, since it obviously wasn't you, must have been cmp then :X Sorry for the confusion.
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:shock: :P
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For example:
Swiss Halberd 6285
2 attack directions
weight 3.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 91
weapon length 162
swing damage 37, cut
thrust damage 28 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
Poleaxe 8036
weight 3.25
requirement 17
spd rtng 89
weapon length 141
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 31 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
More damage, More pierce, 4 attack directions. Give me one reason to take Swill Halberd instead Poleaxe, from example. Both weapons are hardly underpowered and if someone of you think it's not, lets give a try. And don't say something that giving 4 attacks directions makes it another long voulge because all high-tier weapons (2h, polearms) have at least 3-4 similar weapons. To have a useless weapon, better remove it from the game. I know someone that can kill with clubs, but it don't mean that club is an useful weapon. Look at the game and say how many people play often with this weapons. No one.
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More range, speed?
If you think that swiss halberd and/or english bill is useless... Well... then stick to your poleaxe. Leave these weapons for people that don't find them "useless".
Just the fact that you compare these weapons to poleaxes and such tells all. The only weapons you can compare them to are the other 2 directional polearms - awlpike, long awlpike, pike, ashwood pike.
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Well, I use the Swiss Halberd. Problem is that the Elegant etc. Poleaxes are a lot more effective, giving up the two side-swings is just not worth it with such damage. I think that the halberd needs some more pierce, and cut damage. I don't know the Bill though, I don't use it.
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Honestly, Halberd vs poleaxe? What's next? Pike is underpowered, [insert comparison to Long Espada here]?
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If your going to compare the halberd compare it with the glaive.
Glaive might have less thrust damage, no bonus to shield but has same length, speed and can attack sideways.
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Don't overexaggerate it. Well, it's just a longer poleaxe with 2 directions, that's why I compared them. Both has shield bonus, and about the same damage.
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Ptx, give ONE reason to take Swiss or Bill instead another polearm like Poleaxe, GLB, Glaive, Long Hafted Blade.
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The bill is good as is, it has great length and decent speed for pierce damage.
Maybe expensive but it has an overhead of pierce damage with 174 length.
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El_Infante, give me ONE reason to take Pike over another polearm, like the Bec.
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El_Infante, give me ONE reason to take Pike over another polearm, like the Bec.
Sorry, it wasn't for me, but stopping cavalry, and helping your team by poking into melee-fights.
That's two reasons. :wink:
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Well, there you go, you just answered El_Infantes question too.
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Reason?
Pike is a excelent 2nd weapon to dehorse cavguys. You can carry both of them. For example, Bec de Corbin.
Bec de Corbin 7312
weight 2.8
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 120
swing damage 36, pierce
thrust damage 26 pierce
This is an example of an OP weapon. 36 swing pierce!!!!! 93 speed!! And 4 attack directions. Do you think not? Go to a duel server with Halberd or Bill and try to fight a Bec. You will be crushed
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Well, there you go, you just answered El_Infantes question too.
Yeah, that's how I use my halberd as well, but if someone comes up close, I have to use my poleaxe most of the time, so I have to carry two weapons around. Would be nice *and unrealistic* if I could scare them with the Halberd at CQB situations.
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Do i REALLY have to explain how various sub-classes within the polearm category work?
Pike, Long awlpike, English bill, Ashwood pike, Awlpike, Swiss Halberd - these are the pike type polearms, that are best in group fights to support others by stabbing at long range. These are not 1v1 spammers (usually, anyway, the last 2 can be used for that, though).
Comparing them to other polearms is generally the same as comparing 1h to 2h. I think the pokers are near OP, certainly not underpowered. What could be done is looking at the INNER balance of the pokers, but i think that is fine too, except for perhaps the ashwood pike, that seems kind of bad to me.
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I'll take the bill over a bec any day.
Bill has vastly superior range and a deceptively fast over head.
For a weapon with that reach and damage the speed is phenomenal, not to mention the fact its pierce and your VERY likely to score a head shot.
Easily one of the best polearms on the market and my personal favorite if playing support inf.
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If anything, the Ashwood Pike needs a buff into usefulness. At its current state i see zero reason to take it over any other weapon in any situation :|
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I think the pokers are near OP, certainly not underpowered.
Evidenced by the almost dozen players that use them heavily?
If anything, the Ashwood Pike needs a buff into usefulness. At its current state i see zero reason to take it over any other weapon in any situation :|
Increasing the swing damage of the ashwood pike is about the only buff that would not result in it being an awlpike/long awlpike.
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The ashwood pike looks awesome but who in their right mind would use it over warspear or pike/bamboo that's the problem imo.
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A bunch of shogunates armed up with swiss halberds today on crp1 and crpg5. Worked wonders.
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They were using the bill.
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Evidenced by the almost dozen players that use them heavily?
It's not used a lot because they don't fit into the usual playstyle of most people, which is being able to solo mobs of enemies (they still fail at it, but they think they have a chance if the take 2h/the favourite poelarms). Honestly, when I'm meleeing, the worst enemies are the ones backed up by pike/bill and so forth. They are AWESOME support wepons, the problem is that people don't wanna play support.
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Yep, they are the terror of every 2hander. Some have even shield break bonus.
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It's not used a lot because they don't fit into the usual playstyle of most people, which is being able to solo mobs of enemies (they still fail at it, but they think they have a chance if the take 2h/the favourite poelarms). Honestly, when I'm meleeing, the worst enemies are the ones backed up by pike/bill and so forth. They are AWESOME support wepons, the problem is that people don't wanna play support.
you can argue this about several other weapons with similar properties... but they are all much cheaper. You forget to mention these two weapons are some of the most expensive polearms in the game.
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Increasing the swing damage of the ashwood pike is about the only buff that would not result in it being an awlpike/long awlpike.
That would make sense. Or remove it entirely if devs need item space for more awesome stuff instead.