cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Rainbow on March 25, 2012, 12:39:43 am

Title: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Rainbow on March 25, 2012, 12:39:43 am
Create fencing weps that do thrust damage and are 1handers and open up a new shield as a small dagger that will block all but can break.  That would be tits!
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Earthdforce on March 25, 2012, 01:03:06 am
That would be tits!
What happened to you being gay?
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Digglez on March 25, 2012, 01:12:22 am
Scottish, Italian, Side, Espada, broad shortsword are all FENCING style THRUST weapons.  Any of those swords would shatter in two if they tried to actually parry a 2h/polearm weapon
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: larlek on March 25, 2012, 01:12:49 am
What happened to you being gay?

Maybe he is into shemales or something?
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Paul on March 25, 2012, 08:58:05 am
Scottish, Italian, Side, Espada, broad shortsword are all FENCING style THRUST weapons.  Any of those swords would shatter in two if they tried to actually parry a 2h/polearm weapon

no
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Fartface on March 25, 2012, 01:18:13 pm
What happened to you being gay , made laugh so bad xD
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Digglez on March 25, 2012, 06:47:19 pm
no

looks like devs need a history lesson
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 25, 2012, 08:56:59 pm
looks like devs need a history lesson

Nobody blocks anything (warband does it simply because it is a crude program, and hollywood does it because it looks "cool"), parry lets you shift weight around and deflect...

Seems like someone needs a lesson on proper sword play.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 25, 2012, 09:58:42 pm
I would really like fencing themed Items, for example Fencing-Shirts, Rapiers and epees.

Currently the only sword that can be used for an halfway-authentic fencing char is the espada eslavona.

I would also appreciate more Cutlass-Style swords and sabers and such.

Could be pretty awesome.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Digglez on March 26, 2012, 12:30:58 am
Nobody blocks anything (warband does it simply because it is a crude program, and hollywood does it because it looks "cool"), parry lets you shift weight around and deflect...

Seems like someone needs a lesson on proper sword play.

looks like you need swordplay + physics lesson

Lets see you stop my 10lb flamberge side swing with your >1lb thrust fencing rapier that is less than an 1/4 of an inch thick and watch it bend/shatter and get yourself killed.  You think your magical parry just destroys or disappates energy of opponents swing?  When an opponents weapon has 10x more mass than yours, parry is not an option, especially when your life depends on it.


I have year & half of Sabre fencing & Kendo, what do you have?
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 26, 2012, 12:45:37 am
Well that´s not really the best possible example.

Of course you will break his puny little block swinging such a weapon(although in Real life he could easily stick your face while your are busy lifting your humongous sword around), but you would also do so swinging a tree trunk.

Most of the other swords ingame could easily be blocked with a rapier by "Shifting around weight and deflecting".

And since Warband doesnt support a block-breaking mechanic based on angle and weight of participating weapons etc. we will have to stick to what we´ve got.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Logen on March 26, 2012, 02:12:38 am
although in Real life he could easily stick your face while your are busy lifting your humongous sword around
doubtful
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Shik on March 26, 2012, 05:12:13 am
looks like devs need a history lesson
a rapier can parry a full-intent longsword strike without so much as a nick.
http://www.salvatorfabris.org/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml (http://www.salvatorfabris.org/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml)
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Paul on March 26, 2012, 08:16:59 am
A piece of steel that is only held at one point is really really hard to break - even a piece of wood is. Your argument should be that the static block displayed in Warband wouldn't help much to stop a heavier weapon, leading to a crush through and probably damaging the wrist of the defender. But the weapons itself, especially short and thus sturdy ones like the broad short sword would most likely not break into two.

We have to imagine the blocks more like parries that deflect instead of taking the force of the blow head on. With that even lighter weapons that would otherwise be knocked away in the momentum exchange can be used to defend. Read the article Shik provided.

Lastly, I doubt you understand physics at all.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 26, 2012, 08:30:00 am
doubtful

Not at all, actually.

If the guy with the rapier manages to get close up the guy with the flamberge will have more holes in his body than a swiss cheese before he can say :" I shouldnt have brought his 10lb weapon to a single man duel...".

GIven of course the rapier-guy actually manages to get up close.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Dezilagel on March 26, 2012, 10:02:47 am
I shouldnt have brought his 10lb weapon to a single man duel...".

No sword made for combat weighed 10lb...

Also swords are cutting weapons, not tools for hacking/chopping. Even is someone is retarded enough to try and "block" a blow M@B style not much would happen. I mean just take a kitchen knife and try to hack/chop through a pen you're holding and you'll see how retarded it is to think that you could chop in half a hardened steel blade someone's holding.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 26, 2012, 10:34:22 am
No sword made for combat weighed 10lb...


Even if not, it takes a lot of power and time to swing around a 1,5metre sword...While it only takes a second or so to stick a rapier in yo face.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Logen on March 26, 2012, 11:34:10 am
Even if not, it takes a lot of power and time to swing around a 1,5metre sword...While it only takes a second or so to stick a rapier in yo face.
It takes a second or so to stick a 1.5 meter sword in ye. And a bit less than that to stick a rapier through your throat.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 26, 2012, 12:15:18 pm
Which is what I meant.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Teeth on March 26, 2012, 08:23:47 pm
looks like devs need a history lesson
Weren't you the one that claimed that Native Americans got the idea for tomahawks from European colonists using fransisca's?
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Dezilagel on March 26, 2012, 08:47:51 pm
Just give up Teeth.

No Awareness y'know...
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 26, 2012, 09:15:05 pm
Weren't you the one that claimed that Native Americans got the idea for tomahawks from European colonists using fransisca's?

 :lol: Oh no he didnt!

Did he? :lol:
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 26, 2012, 09:18:23 pm
My bullshit meter needs to be replaced again. Usually it is well exercised  since I look at myself in the mirror every day, but now though...
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Rumblood on March 26, 2012, 10:27:18 pm
Lets see you stop my 10lb flamberge side swing with your >1lb thrust fencing rapier that is less than an 1/4 of an inch thick and watch it bend/shatter and get yourself killed.  You think your magical parry just destroys or disappates energy of opponents swing?  When an opponents weapon has 10x more mass than yours, parry is not an option, especially when your life depends on it.

Why would you try to stop it at all? Stay just out of range, then knock it aside, contributing to your missed swing as it goes by and disembowel you as you try to halt the momentum on that 10lb piece of metal. Its a different style that takes speed and finesse, not strength and overwhelming force.

200 lb guy comes charging at you, the little 145 lb guy. Do you dig in, brace yourself and try to absorb his tackle? Hell no. You wait, step aside, stick your foot out and punch him in the back of the head as he goes by and goes face first into the ground. Hey, I don't sword fight like you, but I have been the 145lb guy who used the 200lb guys momentum against him to put him on the ground and get a rear naked choke. I've also just grabbed their arm, going with the charge while rolling backwards onto the ground with my foot in their chest, and kicked them over and through the air onto their back several feet away by using their own momentum against them.
(Not bragging, I've had my ass kicked a few times, but you seem to want real world examples that the actual posters have done themselves)

The point is, nobody is going to try to match strength for strength when their style and advantage calls for something different.

(oh yes, and now I'm old and fat  :cry: )[
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 27, 2012, 12:59:16 am


(oh yes, and now I'm old and fat  :cry: )[

Too small to read :O


Anyway, always nice to see all the historians and fighting specialists among crpg players (mainly looking towards Digglez). But hey, you are not alone out there :)  Every fifth person at least in this community has studied history and swordfighting or other weaponry + physics + materials science.

But instead of improving the world with our knowledge we all play a simple funny game and argue about its mechanics, although we could for example build ovens that could bake bread forever without any human being helping, be it making the dough or putting the dough into the oven or whatsoever  :/
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Rumblood on March 27, 2012, 02:11:18 am
Too small to read :O

Pretty sure he said something about being old and fat now  :P
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Christo on March 27, 2012, 02:35:25 am
Too small to read :O

When in doubt, use quote.  :)
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 27, 2012, 10:34:25 am
When in doubt, use quote.  :)

Yeah I saw it when I quoted him^^
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Renten on March 29, 2012, 09:01:28 pm
a rapier can parry a full-intent longsword strike without so much as a nick.
http://www.salvatorfabris.org/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml (http://www.salvatorfabris.org/RapierParryingLongsword.shtml)

Note that they stated the longsword was blunted, and then commend the also blunted rapier for not receiving nicks. On the other hand this style of parrying is proven to work, so they are correct. Meeting the longsword at a 20 degree angle, stepping forward to meet it closer to the hand and not the tip, and catching it on your guard makes perfect sense. The weapons may receive damage in a battle, but no one would be using them if they just snapped in half in normal use.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Digglez on March 29, 2012, 09:04:43 pm
Note that they stated the longsword was blunted, and then commend the also blunted rapier for not receiving nicks. On the other hand this style of parrying is proven to work, so they are correct. Meeting the longsword at a 20 degree angle, stepping forward to meet it closer to the hand and not the tip, and catching it on your guard makes perfect sense. The weapons may receive damage in a battle, but no one would be using them if they just snapped in half in normal use.

They used raipers because EVERYONE at that point was using them.  Had someone picked a heavier weapon off the wall, you arent going to be using your typical raiper fighting style.  You WILL be dodging and evading MORE because trying to parry a heavier weapon with a paper thin sword is not a good idea
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Rumblood on March 29, 2012, 09:21:26 pm
You seem so knowledgable about the era. Might I borrow your time machine?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Jarlek on March 30, 2012, 02:50:30 am
They used raipers because EVERYONE at that point was using them.  Had someone picked a heavier weapon off the wall, you arent going to be using your typical raiper fighting style.  You WILL be dodging and evading MORE because trying to parry a heavier weapon with a paper thin sword is not a good idea
Yeah! And Native Americans also learned about the Tomahawk because of the European colonists use of the Francisca!

Sorry teeth, I also wanted to mention it :P
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Digglez on March 30, 2012, 09:11:11 pm
You seem so knowledgable about the era. Might I borrow your time machine?  :mrgreen:

Nope.  I wouldnt let you go with me, your lack of historical knowledge would prob get us killed as heretics
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: zagibu on March 31, 2012, 08:40:16 pm
If you actually had any Kendo practice at all, you would know that even the strongest strike can be easily deflected with proper timing.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Digglez on March 31, 2012, 10:47:05 pm
If you actually had any Kendo practice at all, you would know that even the strongest strike can be easily deflected with proper timing.

Kendo uses all of the same type of weapon stupid.  all virutally the same weight.  yet again another physics fail by you
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: zagibu on March 31, 2012, 11:45:53 pm
I don't see how this fact contradicts with what I said, but if it makes you happy to be in the right: you are right!
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Digglez on April 01, 2012, 12:01:43 am
I don't see how this fact contradicts with what I said, but if it makes you happy to be in the right: you are right!

energy of impact = 1/2 MASS * velocity squared


SEE THE GIANT PART ABOUT MASS.  If I have to spell it out anymore, you clearly havent had a lick of physics in your life.

Kendo uses a uniform weapon.  The maximum impact is pretty set. the weapons are Designed to interact with each other.  If I pull out a 5 LB morningstar, that greatly increases the energy of an impact, whether you think you can deflect it or not. 

Keep drinking your ninja deflection juice, I hear you can parry bullets and arrows too
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Logen on April 01, 2012, 12:09:40 am
So you're saying that theres no way to defend yourself against a morgenstern?  :lol:
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Cup1d on April 01, 2012, 02:03:41 am
So you're saying that theres not way to defend yourself against a morgenstern?  :lol:


Of course no, thats why this weapon was banned in all modern time armies. Along with Rubber Bomb - weapon that needs only one dropping, and then killing armies just with bouncing-bouncing-bouncing...
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Paul on April 01, 2012, 11:23:57 am
Digglez, please stop embarrassing yourself and leave physics alone.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Loar Avel on April 01, 2012, 11:49:45 am
True one handed sword beat flamberge every time, on speed and on power



Yes sir!


visitors can't see pics , please register or login







For getting back on the topic, you've already got, Espada Eslavona, Side Sword, Long Espada Eslavon, Scottish Sword, Short Arming Sword, Short Sword


(would also love a dagger as shield)
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Rumblood on April 01, 2012, 04:17:56 pm
energy of impact = 1/2 MASS * velocity squared

I can Google too!

Quote
In this very simple model the portion of the energy projected to the target depends on the angle of slope:

    E_d / E_k ={sin^2(\alpha)}

where

    E_d: Energy transferred to the target
    E_k: Incident kinetic energy of projectile
    \alpha: Angle of the plane from the projectile's initial direction
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: B3RS3RK on April 01, 2012, 07:13:43 pm

Of course no, thats why this weapon was banned in all modern time armies. Along with Rubber Bomb - weapon that needs only one dropping, and then killing armies just with bouncing-bouncing-bouncing...

I herd pesants in medieval armies used giant tree trunks as weapun all the time becuz there was no waii u could block them.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Rainbow on April 02, 2012, 10:29:41 pm
Also if somebody uses a fencing wep change there stances!  Make it so they keep one hand on there hip or something.  omg i'm getting so excited!
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: zagibu on April 03, 2012, 01:28:54 pm
energy of impact = 1/2 MASS * velocity squared


SEE THE GIANT PART ABOUT MASS.  If I have to spell it out anymore, you clearly havent had a lick of physics in your life.

Kendo uses a uniform weapon.  The maximum impact is pretty set. the weapons are Designed to interact with each other.  If I pull out a 5 LB morningstar, that greatly increases the energy of an impact, whether you think you can deflect it or not. 

Keep drinking your ninja deflection juice, I hear you can parry bullets and arrows too

Actually, in your formula, velocity is much more important than mass, because it is squared. I leave you a hole to escape, or rather, embarass yourself further, though: you can claim that velocity doesn't matter, because a light weapon and a heavy weapon strike with the same speed.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Molly on April 03, 2012, 01:45:51 pm
Actually, in your formula, velocity is much more important than mass, because it is squared. I leave you a hole to escape, or rather, embarass yourself further, though: you can claim that velocity doesn't matter, because a light weapon and a heavy weapon strike with the same speed.
Well, you would to keep in mind that the speed is depending on the rotation-angle. The tip of the weapon will be faster than the "holding end". Therefore the shorter weapon will have less speed on impact than the longer weapon - when both used in a swing. A thrust will be different.
Concerning the velocity... a heavier weapon will have less velocity than a shorter one if swung by comparable men since the energy for the swing takes mass into account.
There surely are possibilities to make a proper physical advance on this matter but at least I cba... =) Just commenting on the physics...
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Aleskander on April 12, 2012, 04:48:03 pm
If someone could make proper fencing mechanics and animation is M&B, do it. otherwise, using a foil like a longsword would look retarded.

I really want someone to try an block a flamberge with a rapier. Without adding bullshit mechanics into the game, any proper fencing combat would look ridiculous.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: zagibu on April 12, 2012, 11:37:11 pm
If someone could make proper fencing mechanics and animation is M&B, do it. otherwise, using a foil like a longsword would look retarded.

I really want someone to try an block a flamberge with a rapier. Without adding bullshit mechanics into the game, any proper fencing combat would look ridiculous.

It depends on the swing. If it's an overhead, it can be easily deflected with a rapier. A sideswing on hip height or slightly above, will be much harder to deflect.

Actually, stabs are hardest to deflect, because properly judging distance of a pointed end coming straight at you is very hard, and the timing has to be just right.
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Rumblood on April 13, 2012, 01:12:11 am
I really want someone to try an block a flamberge with a rapier. Without adding bullshit mechanics into the game, any proper fencing combat would look ridiculous.

You mean like someone swinging a flamberge around as though it were a foil? Good thing we don't have that type of bullshit mechanic!
Title: Re: New Fencing themed toons
Post by: Loar Avel on April 15, 2012, 10:16:05 pm
La, la, la



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQCHvM&feature=related


So bad the video spoiled itself.