cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: ammeron on March 18, 2012, 01:47:27 pm

Title: Long Bow
Post by: ammeron on March 18, 2012, 01:47:27 pm
The long bow is an interesting bow, i understand where they are coming from with the bow, but the way it currently is, its not even a viable option.
The bows damage is quite high, but its not even remotely worth it to use it over the rus bow due to the insane speed reduction, its way to slow.
Suggestions:
Option 1. +2-3 projectile speed / +2 speed rating (it needs something to make it more of a sniper, its hardly more accurate than the rus and the speed is crippling)
Option 2.  +1 damage / +2 speed rating (the bow would still be really slow, but it would actually be usable considering the +4 damage gained off using the rus bow)
Option 3.  +4 speed rating (this would put the bow at about the same speed reduction per damage gained as all the other bows and make it actually worth using)
Option 4.  -1 damage / +6 speed rating (this would still be a +2 dmg upgrade from the rus, with only the slight 2-3 speed penalty just as all the other bow upgrades are)
I know some archers currently use one, but quite frankly their insane, the bow is horrible the way it is right now and not worth it at all.

*btw i dont need any archery op bs in this topic, if u actually have an opinion on it feel free to state it*
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Cup1d on March 18, 2012, 02:17:55 pm
If you are damage whore than use arbalest and be a damage whore.

All what longbow need is 48-50 projectile speed.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gurnisson on March 18, 2012, 03:01:51 pm
All what longbow need is 48-50 projectile speed.

I agree that it could need a missile speed boost but 10 more? Are you insane?
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on March 18, 2012, 03:10:21 pm
+3 Damage for Long Bow, which is atm is balanced, it's really big if you will ad the power draw mulitplier. I think it's balanced atm.

Forth option is funny it would make them almost same, and still longbow better? U mad, bro?
Rest of options is too useless, cuz current balance between them is good.

Long Bow is for killing tincans, but not for dueling with other archers with horn or rus. You need to be a sniper, hidden and lethal :D With rus bow you can be fuckin' rambo running 5 feets away from inf.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Okkam on March 18, 2012, 03:31:58 pm
I agree that it could need a missile speed boost but 10 more? Are you insane?


I remember how longbow has 60 projectile speed. Before this pity «projectile speed nerf»
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Moncho on March 18, 2012, 03:48:53 pm

I remember how longbow has 60 projectile speed. Before this pity «projectile speed nerf»

Nah, that wasnt a nerf, at least compared with thechange in damage from bow to arrow, that was a hard hit for the longbow...
Personally, now i think that it is not balanced (look at the data from damage from cmp:

(click to show/hide)
The damage from rus bow is nearly three times as much, and nearly twice from the ak47hornbow (and in NA its even worse!).

About options for it, I would like a bit more projectile speed (42-44) and maybe a slight speed increase (52-53). I wouldnt go for more damage since damage reduces accuracy and I sometimes feel like the reticule opens too early already.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Okkam on March 18, 2012, 03:52:57 pm
I wouldnt go for more damage since damage reduces accuracy and I sometimes feel like the reticule opens too early already.

Oh. cmon, don't you ever seen throwing weapon with 120-150 accuracy? Why do you think they do it?
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 18, 2012, 05:33:00 pm
Nah, that wasnt a nerf, at least compared with thechange in damage from bow to arrow, that was a hard hit for the longbow...
Personally, now i think that it is not balanced (look at the data from damage from cmp:
The damage from rus bow is nearly three times as much, and nearly twice from the ak47hornbow (and in NA its even worse!).

About options for it, I would like a bit more projectile speed (42-44) and maybe a slight speed increase (52-53). I wouldnt go for more damage since damage reduces accuracy and I sometimes feel like the reticule opens too early already.

Probably good numbers for "bow balance" as the situation stands now. Even the tatar bow is better than the longbow. With a MW Tatar, MW bodkins firing at Cyranule who was on a horse coming towards me slowly on rocky terrain (so very slight speed bonus as we were on the side of a mountain), I took 50% of his health with 8 PD and 5 WM against his 60 armor. With that kind of damage, why would I choose the longbow at all, ever? That doesn't even count the Horn or Rus for their extra damage boost. Now, with only WM 5 and 8 PD, even the Tatar is no longer pinpoint accurate at range (200+ yards), but so what? It regains pinpoint at around 100 yards and you can headshot again accurately at 50. You can dance around horses and still draw your bow and fire into them without needing to take out your melee weapon and the horses can't touch you 1 vs 1. 'Im dropping down to PD 7 and WM 7, which will drop the damage slightly, but I'll be pinpoint at range again. And that's the Tatar.

Quite simply, there is no reason, other than aesthetics, to use the Long Bow.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gurnisson on March 18, 2012, 06:44:54 pm
Quite simply, there is no reason, other than aesthetics, to use the Long Bow.

Raw damage
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Cup1d on March 18, 2012, 07:53:39 pm
I agree that it could need a missile speed boost but 10 more? Are you insane?

Only this can make this bow what it must be - best bow for shooting at long distance.
Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TlqtSM5wP5E#t=328s


Raw damage

Raw damage do not works, if any archer with Tatar, Strong or Warbow can just spam you with arrows.
I don't care if Longbow will even trade 2 damage for 48 projectile speed.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 18, 2012, 09:37:40 pm
Raw damage

Nope. I can fire 2 arrows with the Tatar Bow with 8 PD in the same time as 1 arrow from the Long Bow. At least in an archer duel. The LongBow can't get off even 1 shot without standing still (and getting headshot).
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 18, 2012, 09:41:34 pm
Either speed or dmg or missle speed, but not 2 or 3 different things as a buff. Longbow shall not be the most powerful bow, it shall just become viable again for those who like it.

I think +10 missile speed is too much Cup1d^^

and what OP suggested that it shall get +6 speed but less damage is crap in my opinion. We don't want longbow to be a rusbow that just looks differently.


In my opinion best would be to give longbow +2 more drawspeed. Maybe 3, but that has to be tested.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: [ptx] on March 18, 2012, 10:09:46 pm
Longer arrow-holding time and, perhaps, higher accuracy is what the longbow needs.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 18, 2012, 10:15:03 pm
Accuracy is perfectly fine, get more wpf if it isn't enough for you^^

reticule staying small longer would also be something, but I still think faster drawspeed will improve that more than giving the bow +accuracy
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 18, 2012, 10:37:45 pm
Accuracy is perfectly fine, get more wpf if it isn't enough for you^^

reticule staying small longer would also be something, but I still think faster drawspeed will improve that more than giving the bow +accuracy

Longer hold time (despite anti-realism) would be a good trade-off. Also a faster missile speed improves accuracy due to less of a drop over distance, and would make it better than other bows at range. (You don't have to guesstimate the arc) It would also make it too fast to dodge (unlike other bows that are still slow enough for an aware melee to dodge)

+5 missile speed, Optimal reticule hold time increase to 3 seconds.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: [ptx] on March 18, 2012, 11:02:38 pm
Longer hold time (despite anti-realism) would be a good trade-off. Also a faster missile speed improves accuracy due to less of a drop over distance, and would make it better than other bows at range. (You don't have to guesstimate the arc) It would also make it too fast to dodge (unlike other bows that are still slow enough for an aware melee to dodge)

+5 missile speed, Optimal reticule hold time increase to 3 seconds.
3 seconds would be ridiculous, anything up to 1,5 seconds would be enough
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 18, 2012, 11:42:07 pm
3 seconds would be ridiculous, anything up to 1,5 seconds would be enough

Define "ridiculous" - Your face!  :P
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: ammeron on March 19, 2012, 03:32:33 am
If you are damage whore than use arbalest and be a damage whore.

All what longbow need is 48-50 projectile speed.

..... my arrows do almost the same damage as an arbalest, and they would do the same with the long bow, they do about 90 pierce with the rus, and a fully loomed arbalest w/ bolts does 100 pierce
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rheinhardt on March 19, 2012, 10:22:36 am
Wild thought.

Axe the hold time so its more worthwhile to just click and let it fly. Increase accuracy so you can hit the target you pick out in that quarter second when it will let go. Tweak the speed up a notch. Let the longbow be the murderous long-range spam weapon it was meant to be, but useless if you try and hold it back for individual shots.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Cup1d on March 19, 2012, 10:40:43 am
..... my arrows do almost the same damage as an arbalest, and they would do the same with the long bow, they do about 90 pierce with the rus, and a fully loomed arbalest w/ bolts does 100 pierce

Even with 32 level build

Level 32 (17 784 806 xp)

Strength: 30
Agility: 15
Hit points: 65
Skills to attributes: 16
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 2
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 10
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 151
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

With MW Longbow and MW Bodkins your maximum damage is 80 pierce. At point-blank shot against 0 armor target.
And MW Rus bow can make only 74 pierce at point-blank.

Also this build is extremely inaccurate and very expensive with longbow and bodkins.

I'm interested, with what bow and arrows you can receive 100pierce damage?
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rheinhardt on March 19, 2012, 10:53:45 am
I've been playing with a broken longbow for days now, finally dragged together enough cash to repair it, and the first round I play? Breaks again.

I am seriously about to delete this worthless character. It has been nothing but frustration to try and play a longbowman. The weapon has no saving grace and all its on-paper damage is a waste of time when you can't hit targets at long range and any dolt with a shield can stop it short range. I expected to send a rapid and hard-hitting barrage of half-aimed arrows at the target. Instead I send a slow trickle of unaimed arrows into the dirt. The weapon is fundamentally flawed in play because there is rarely any aiming for formations and the damage done by each arrow isn't enough to justify the dozens of shots required to hit anyone at range.

Make it a sniper's bow or make it a barrage bow, but don't make it a worthlessly slow, inaccurate waste of time.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 19, 2012, 01:15:43 pm


I'm interested, with what bow and arrows you can receive 100pierce damage?

I asked that myself^^
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: ammeron on March 19, 2012, 01:54:30 pm
Even with 32 level build

Level 32 (17 784 806 xp)

Strength: 30
Agility: 15
Hit points: 65
Skills to attributes: 16
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 2
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 10
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 151
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

With MW Longbow and MW Bodkins your maximum damage is 80 pierce. At point-blank shot against 0 armor target.
And MW Rus bow can make only 74 pierce at point-blank.

Also this build is extremely inaccurate and very expensive with longbow and bodkins.

I'm interested, with what bow and arrows you can receive 100pierce damage?


... its called math bro, i know its hard but ill spell it out for you

raw_damage = (bow_damage + arrow_damage) * (archery_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1) + strength / 5.0

example = (34 + 2) * (151*.01*.15*.85) * (10 * .14 + 1) + 30/5 = 98 pierce
thats with a long bow
with a rus bow its about 90 pierce damage
and 151 wpf isnt inaccurate at all, long range yes u could have some issues, but other than that its perfectly fine
wpf adds a VERY VERY VERY slight increase to damage for bows, however the increase is added onto the base damage before power draw therefore its multiplied by 240% if u hav e10 power draw, making it a rather large increase, plus the 5 dmg from strength with this build, makes it very strong
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Cup1d on March 19, 2012, 02:16:58 pm

... its called math bro, i know its hard but ill spell it out for you

raw_damage = (bow_damage + arrow_damage) * (archery_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1) + strength / 5.0

example = (34 + 2) * (151*.01*.15*.85) * (10 * .14 + 1) + 30/5 = 98 pierce

Wow, you are zealous but bad informed scientist
Ok. You forgot to subtract 140 wpf as penalty for your 10 pd (each PD eat 14 effective wpf).

Check your formula now:
example = (34 + 2) * (11*.01*.15+.85) * (10 * .14 + 1) + 30/5 = 80.8 pierce


So, I've got same question, with what build, bow and arrow you can receive 100pierce?
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Turboflex on March 19, 2012, 03:37:30 pm
Instead of turning long bow into a boring arbalast style high damage/longass reload style weapon, maybe instead as a shotgun style weapon?

Up the draw speed, but lower accuracy, also make it require PD 7 or 8.

This will turn it into a weapon for short range "combat archers", people who probably have medium armour on and are shooting at tincans 10-20 yards away, ready to switch to their weapon and fight them not run away.

So keep the rus bow for the archers who want to use light gear and sit on a rooftop sniping, turn the longbow into a specialty weapon for a manly archer who wants to shoot on the frontlines and then pull out his sword.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 19, 2012, 04:22:01 pm
Instead of turning long bow into a boring arbalast style high damage/longass reload style weapon, maybe instead as a shotgun style weapon?

Up the draw speed, but lower accuracy, also make it require PD 7 or 8.

This will turn it into a weapon for short range "combat archers", people who probably have medium armour on and are shooting at tincans 10-20 yards away, ready to switch to their weapon and fight them not run away.

So keep the rus bow for the archers who want to use light gear and sit on a rooftop sniping, turn the longbow into a specialty weapon for a manly archer who wants to shoot on the frontlines and then pull out his sword.

Longbow a bow for shortrange fast firing archers?  In which universe do you live?
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rheinhardt on March 19, 2012, 05:43:58 pm
I asked that myself^^

Oh ordinary bodkins.

Armor-piercing fletching stabilized depleted uranium bodkins.

You could get them at any corner fletcher in 1285.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 19, 2012, 05:58:19 pm
Longbow a bow for shortrange fast firing archers?  In which universe do you live?

He's saying as an alternative, because the dev's clearly don't want people using long bows after the recent archer nerfs.  If they wanted to make long bows viable again they would increase the projectile speed and accuracy of the bows, but make the draw take longer.  Right now as a non-archer I would see no reason for anyone to ever use the long bow.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: XyNox on March 19, 2012, 11:29:13 pm
Im using it again atm but only because I was retarded enough to put a loom point into it and I dont want it to be spent for nothing ... I would wish for some accuracy so long range shooting would be less of a gamble. Also I know how you feel Rheinhardt.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rheinhardt on March 19, 2012, 11:33:03 pm
I snapped that worthless longbow over my knee and swan-dove off a tower, rerolled my STF archer and guess what?

Rus bow using with 18 str and the rest AGI and pumped WPF is shooting like a beast. Fast, accurate, hard enough hitting for default arrows. I'm actually hitting people where before I couldn't get enemies past fifty meters!

I ask again, what is the point of the longbow?!
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 20, 2012, 01:14:44 am
longbow doesn't need an accuracy buff

Better would be a missile speed buff. Before new missile textures came you could so some very nice longrangeshooting and the chance you hit was really high.

Now it's crap cause you arrows are too slow and the range is decreased by that, too :/
Accuracy is fine, only time you have to aim (means till your reticule grows) is very short
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: ammeron on March 21, 2012, 12:27:22 am
i've heard that too, but i've compared my dmg tests on alts with arbalests on alt chars vs my longbow on my friend with same armor / if everything, both did almost identical damage. in theory i should do 20 less, but i never did it was always the same. so either the arbalest is penalised and doing 80 pierce or my bow is doing 100
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Cup1d on March 21, 2012, 12:56:32 am
you don't need complicated tests with armors etc..., find someone with 85-90 hp and shoot him naked with bodyshot at point-blanc. At first with arbalest, then with longbow. Arbalest will kill that target but longbow don't.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: ammeron on March 21, 2012, 05:25:40 pm
you don't need complicated tests with armors etc..., find someone with 85-90 hp and shoot him naked with bodyshot at point-blanc. At first with arbalest, then with longbow. Arbalest will kill that target but longbow don't.

i've done that with and without armor, both with almost identical results
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 21, 2012, 10:01:23 pm
i've heard that too, but i've compared my dmg tests on alts with arbalests on alt chars vs my longbow on my friend with same armor / if everything, both did almost identical damage. in theory i should do 20 less, but i never did it was always the same. so either the arbalest is penalised and doing 80 pierce or my bow is doing 100

Crossbow does not get bonus from Power Draw, Longbow does. Since it requires PD 6, your floor is there. Anything above will make the Longbow more damaging and shouldn't be part of the test.
You also have to take into account the arrows type. Make sure you are using bodkins.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: ammeron on March 22, 2012, 11:59:11 am
Crossbow does not get bonus from Power Draw, Longbow does. Since it requires PD 6, your floor is there. Anything above will make the Longbow more damaging and shouldn't be part of the test.
You also have to take into account the arrows type. Make sure you are using bodkins.

do u even understand what the debate is about?!?! afully loomed abalest with bolts does like 99 pierce, i said i can do 98 pierce with my longbow (and obviously if i said 98 pierce that means im using bodkins...) and he said thats impossible. so i was showing him the math, but he thinks u need to subtract wpf from PD, witch technically is true, but i've tested my damage against the same target WITH MY BUILD of 10PD THAT DOES 98 PIERCE with math, vs the 99 pierce arbalest my friend has. we shot the same guy and it did the same damage with both targets / different armor types tested too.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gurnisson on March 22, 2012, 12:33:29 pm
There's a random factor involved too. One test is not enough.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: BlindGuy on March 22, 2012, 12:49:01 pm
Longer hold time (despite anti-realism) would be a good trade-off.


i've heard that too, but i've compared my dmg tests on alts with arbalests on alt chars vs my longbow on my friend with same armor


1. Holding your bow drawn for a few seconds IRL allows you more accuracy, not less.

2. Dont ever compare crossbows and bows for balance, or any other, kind of test: Crossbows must only invest WPF. They dont even need much for repeatably accurate results. Archers must sacrifice points for PD, and almost 100% of wpf to even hope to hit anything with a longbow. Its accuracy is shit, its refire speed is hilariously bad, for some reason it weighs MORE than a horn bow, even tho hornbow has a massive leather horse sheath....


TO BALANCE ARCHERY:

Give Longbow decent accuracy. OR, much better solution:

Tag all bows that come with horse sheaths as Unusable on Foot: They arent designed for it, they are RIDIculously accurate and powerful considering how useless against armour all tiny compound recurve bows were, and are, when made from all natural components. The sheath would seriously hinder your running if worn as it is ingame, tbh it would have been attached TO THE HORSE not to the archer. Fix the weight issues also: a longbow does not weigh more than a compound recurve + sheath. It just doesnt.

I snapped that worthless longbow over my knee and swan-dove off a tower, rerolled my STF archer and guess what?

Rus bow using with 18 str and the rest AGI and pumped WPF is shooting like a beast. Fast, accurate, hard enough hitting for default arrows. I'm actually hitting people where before I couldn't get enemies past fifty meters!

I ask again, what is the point of the longbow?!

Currently no point, and players who use it do so because they care more about their style than killing. It is pathetic.

If you enjoyed 18/21 or 18/24 Rus bow, try horn bow: Its faster, lighter, and even more effective. Ugly as fuck, unrealistic to the extreme, but the most devestating of all archer weapons.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 22, 2012, 05:17:17 pm
but i've tested my damage  WITH MY BUILD of 10PD

Then its a bullshit test like I told you. PD 6 is the floor to use the Longbow. Not to mention as Blindguy pointed out that Xbows don't have to invest in strength to get the needed pre-requisites for the skills, because they don't need a skill at all, which means they can throw those points into Agility and Weapon Master for more WPF than the Longbow user can get.
So keep arguing about a test that doesn't mean squat.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 22, 2012, 10:19:20 pm
Actually there is no need for any specific testing.

Go play a few days on battleserver and let people shoot you with longbow and with arbalests (you will find enough people with these things). After some rounds you might recognise it that arbalest deals much more damage.

And yes, comparing crossbows and bows is like comparing lance with throwing :rolleyes:


And something to the topic of longbow:  Longbow can use alot of things as a buff but what it definitely NOT needs is a buff in accuracy!
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 22, 2012, 10:36:56 pm
And something to the topic of longbow:  Longbow can use alot of things as a buff but what it definitely NOT needs is a buff in accuracy!

I agree. Increased missile speed and increased optimal reticule draw time would make the bow worth investing time and loom points into again.

Not accuracy, unless you can change the WPF effects for the Longbow only, giving it increased accuracy at a lower WPF than other bows.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: XyNox on March 22, 2012, 11:02:18 pm
Ive been oneshotted plenty of times with arbalests but only one time with a longbow.

I still dont agree that longbow needs no accuracy. Right now on a high PD build the tartar, the horn, rus and probably any other bow in the game is more accurate than the longbow wich is lame. Its been said dozents of times, the longbow is bugged atm, as the nocking animation at this speed rating is too slow to let you release an arrow before the reticule starts spreading. That said I would be happy if longbow would get any optimal reticle draw time as of right now it simply has none, which would also correct for the mid-long range gambling with this bow. I dont get how this obvious bug didnt get fixed till now.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 22, 2012, 11:09:55 pm
Ive been oneshotted plenty of times with arbalests but only one time with a longbow.

I still dont agree that longbow needs no accuracy. Right now on a high PD build the tartar, the horn, rus and probably any other bow in the game is more accurate than the longbow wich is lame. Its been said dozents of times, the longbow is bugged atm, as the nocking animation at this speed rating is too slow to let you release an arrow before the reticule starts spreading. That said I would be happy if longbow would get any optimal reticle draw time as of right now it simply has none, which would also correct for the mid-long range gambling with this bow. I dont get how this obvious bug didnt get fixed till now.

Has nothing to do with accuracy of the longbow itself. It's all about drawspeed, as you mentioned somewhere in between^^
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: XyNox on March 23, 2012, 04:05:23 am
Has nothing to do with accuracy of the longbow itself. It's all about drawspeed, as you mentioned somewhere in between^^

Yes you are right. The "base accuracy" of the longbow is fine. But due to this bug there is a random chance that arrows will spread in unexplainable dircetions, just as holding the shot drawn for to long with other bows does. If this would get fixed and your arrows acutally go where you aim, Im sure then the longbow does not need an accuracy buff but as it is now, on tight shots you can never know if you going to hit the enemy or your teammate spazzing around in ruffly same location.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Jarlek on March 23, 2012, 04:49:39 am
BUFF MAH LONGBOOOOOW!
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rheinhardt on March 23, 2012, 07:32:00 am
Historically longbowmen were all about high rates of fire and the long range and solid hitting power of the bow. Accuracy was a secondary consideration, with most training aiming for area targets. Crank up the draw speed so it becomes a spammer's high-powered delight.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: BlindGuy on March 23, 2012, 10:27:32 am
Historically longbowmen were all about high rates of fire and the long range and solid hitting power of the bow. Accuracy was a secondary consideration, with most training aiming for area targets. Crank up the draw speed so it becomes a spammer's high-powered delight.

This would be acceptable. Also, that the arbalest deals more dmg than longbow makes me facepalm daily: these crossbows never excisted. Crossbows were feared not because of their deadly accuracy or their power, simply because any tool could grab one and shoot, enabling anyone to get a ranged weapon, rather than having to dedicate their free time for 12-15 years to master the use of a ranged weapon. This is the point when some goons types "I saw a test on History channel with crossbow and bow..." NO! Crossbows of the middle ages were NOT high carbon-steel armed, plastic bodied engineering masterpieces, with graphite bolt shafts, mechanically exactly placed fletching, high carbon steel heads and tensile steel strung tools of today. They were bulky, badly made, prone to misfiring, innacuracy, lack of range, lack of penetrative power, everything. Also, it seems, in warband and crpg they are weightless, since you can CoD your way around with it at your shoulder as you run without your reticule getting larger and larger as the weight of a unbalanced machine pulls more and more at you.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 23, 2012, 10:35:52 am
Yes you are right. The "base accuracy" of the longbow is fine. But due to this bug there is a random chance that arrows will spread in unexplainable dircetions, just as holding the shot drawn for to long with other bows does. If this would get fixed and your arrows acutally go where you aim, Im sure then the longbow does not need an accuracy buff but as it is now, on tight shots you can never know if you going to hit the enemy or your teammate spazzing around in ruffly same location.

I've never experienced that and I only use the longbow :/

But I think what you are talking about can be fixed by more drawspeed. Longbow is like that: The moment you have drawn it you have to shoot cause your reticule starts growing immediatley because it is at its smallest point before you are able to shoot.

This would be acceptable. Also, that the arbalest deals more dmg than longbow makes me facepalm daily: these crossbows never excisted. Crossbows were feared not because of their deadly accuracy or their power, simply because any tool could grab one and shoot, enabling anyone to get a ranged weapon, rather than having to dedicate their free time for 12-15 years to master the use of a ranged weapon. This is the point when some goons types "I saw a test on History channel with crossbow and bow..." NO! Crossbows of the middle ages were NOT high carbon-steel armed, plastic bodied engineering masterpieces, with graphite bolt shafts, mechanically exactly placed fletching, high carbon steel heads and tensile steel strung tools of today. They were bulky, badly made, prone to misfiring, innacuracy, lack of range, lack of penetrative power, everything. Also, it seems, in warband and crpg they are weightless, since you can CoD your way around with it at your shoulder as you run without your reticule getting larger and larger as the weight of a unbalanced machine pulls more and more at you.

Sorry but half of what you say is crap. Not all, but about half :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Okkam on March 23, 2012, 11:25:11 am
Historically longbowmen were all about high rates of fire and the long range and solid hitting power of the bow. Accuracy was a secondary consideration, with most training aiming for area targets. Crank up the draw speed so it becomes a spammer's high-powered delight.


Any longbowman want to shoot as fast as he can (as every bowman with other bow), but longbow never was fastest bow. To be honest it also do not have enough energy to be called bow with most damage output. You need composite bow to accumulate more energy. That's why in Native Longbow never was high end bow.
And do not tell me any crap about - but cRPG has best balance in da world. Just No.

Xbow was cheap, slow, harditting (because bolt was much heavier than arrow) and inaccurate (because bolt is short, unbalanced and do not have stable trajectory) weapon. Our high end xbows is science fiction weapons, along with Flamberge, Great maul, unbreakable lances, throwing lances, any greatswords longer than 120cm. Even Fire bomb is more historically accurate than all this arsenal.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gurnisson on March 23, 2012, 01:09:49 pm
This would be acceptable. Also, that the arbalest deals more dmg than longbow makes me facepalm daily: these crossbows never excisted. Crossbows were feared not because of their deadly accuracy or their power, simply because any tool could grab one and shoot, enabling anyone to get a ranged weapon, rather than having to dedicate their free time for 12-15 years to master the use of a ranged weapon. This is the point when some goons types "I saw a test on History channel with crossbow and bow..." NO! Crossbows of the middle ages were NOT high carbon-steel armed, plastic bodied engineering masterpieces, with graphite bolt shafts, mechanically exactly placed fletching, high carbon steel heads and tensile steel strung tools of today. They were bulky, badly made, prone to misfiring, innacuracy, lack of range, lack of penetrative power, everything. Also, it seems, in warband and crpg they are weightless, since you can CoD your way around with it at your shoulder as you run without your reticule getting larger and larger as the weight of a unbalanced machine pulls more and more at you.

Just a friendly reminder, this is the Game Balance Discussion forum, not the Realism Discussion board. I, for one, would rather have dedicated xbowmen than every infantry with an xbow strapped on his back.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: XyNox on March 23, 2012, 09:57:33 pm
I've never experienced that and I only use the longbow :/

But I think what you are talking about can be fixed by more drawspeed. Longbow is like that: The moment you have drawn it you have to shoot cause your reticule starts growing immediatley because it is at its smallest point before you are able to shoot.

I can imagine you have more WM/ less PD than me. On my 8 PD 6 WM 154 WPF build the reticule already opened to a little degree before I am able to send off a missile. Some shots are dead accurate, some shots again miss the target by a few feet. I can imagine with 8 WM for example instead of 6, you can get just enough WPF so your draw time will fall below the magic mark, enabling you to draw fast enough to shoot before the reticule starts opening. The problem I see is that only the longbow suffers from this mechanic as the rusbow is more accurate even on less WPF. Im sure lowering the drawtime on the longbow would fix this but more in need IMO is to prolong the optimum reticule draw time by 0.5 - 1 seconds. This way accuracy bug-ness of the longbow on power builds would be fixed without buffing it significantly.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 23, 2012, 10:33:46 pm
Make the Longbow as fast and accurate at 1 WPF as it is now at 50 WPF.
Then the cost and progression remains the same, but at higher ends it will have better accuracy and draw speed due to WPF increase because it begins slightly higher on the scale.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: XyNox on March 23, 2012, 11:52:35 pm
Make the Longbow as fast and accurate at 1 WPF as it is now at 50 WPF.
Then the cost and progression remains the same, but at higher ends it will have better accuracy and draw speed due to WPF increase because it begins slightly higher on the scale.

Sounds reasonable
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 24, 2012, 12:53:02 am
I can imagine you have more WM/ less PD than me. On my 8 PD 6 WM 154 WPF build the reticule already opened to a little degree before I am able to send off a missile. Some shots are dead accurate, some shots again miss the target by a few feet. I can imagine with 8 WM for example instead of 6, you can get just enough WPF so your draw time will fall below the magic mark, enabling you to draw fast enough to shoot before the reticule starts opening. The problem I see is that only the longbow suffers from this mechanic as the rusbow is more accurate even on less WPF. Im sure lowering the drawtime on the longbow would fix this but more in need IMO is to prolong the optimum reticule draw time by 0.5 - 1 seconds. This way accuracy bug-ness of the longbow on power builds would be fixed without buffing it significantly.

Sadly even with 8wm you can't get to the magic point, but you get very close to it^^ Still the arrow goes a bit too late and I don't want to imagine how it would be with 6 wm 

Best would be 1/2 more speed and something about the time you can hold your bow.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: XyNox on March 26, 2012, 04:27:09 am
So now everything has been said, everyone seems to agree that the longbow needs a buff to be worth using, a conclusion that has been expressed a long time ago and many times so far, will anything happen or will a thousand more threads like this one need to be opened till some will be changed ?
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 26, 2012, 10:34:47 am
So now everything has been said, everyone seems to agree that the longbow needs a buff to be worth using, a conclusion that has been expressed a long time ago and many times so far, will anything happen or will a thousand more threads like this one need to be opened till some will be changed ?

Usually nothing happens (we had threads about longbow quite often) and the next thread will pop up directly after next patch if nothing changes. Maybe a bit earlier even^^
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on March 26, 2012, 11:44:03 am
I think, that will make longbow bit overpowered, to compare it with rus bow. Longbow is slower and less acurate, then you'll need to find extremly build for it, but in reward you get these extra damage. I'm also just reminding, don't try to be superstars, if longbow is too hard or not in your "style" get rus or horn, both are great too. I don't like ideas about increasing speed and making it more accurate. But the solution which Rumblood said, is good I think.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Cup1d on March 26, 2012, 11:56:54 am
ATM longbow is bad choice for any level 30 build. Even MW Longbow. You've gain +3 to damage for the price of -8 speed, and accuracy.

Just imagine this as melee weapon difference.

1. Fast sword (hornbow edition) 37 swing damage, 95 speed.
2. Sword (rus bow edition) - 40 swing damage, 92 speed.
3. Slow sword (longbow edition) 43 swing damage, 84 speed.

What weapon you'll choose?
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: BlindGuy on March 26, 2012, 03:30:15 pm
ATM longbow is bad choice for any level 30 build. Even MW Longbow. You've gain +3 to damage for the price of -8 speed, and accuracy.

Just imagine this as melee weapon difference.

1. Fast sword (hornbow edition) 37 swing damage, 95 speed.
2. Sword (rus bow edition) - 40 swing damage, 92 speed.
3. Slow sword (longbow edition) 43 swing damage, 84 speed.

What weapon you'll choose?

Scimitar.
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 26, 2012, 05:02:10 pm
ATM longbow is bad choice for any level 30 build. Even MW Longbow. You've gain +3 to damage for the price of -8 speed, and accuracy.



It's not much better even for a lvl 32 build :/  (don't know how it is with 9wm though, but I suppose not better)

It's really annoying to see that people with a hornbow or worse, with a shortbow can hold their bow for 5 3-6 seconds or maybe more and still shoot with pinpoint accuracy whereas the longbow sucks after aiming for 1 second :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Long Bow
Post by: Rumblood on March 26, 2012, 05:16:21 pm
It's not much better even for a lvl 32 build :/  (don't know how it is with 9wm though, but I suppose not better)

It's really annoying to see that people with a hornbow or worse, with a shortbow can hold their bow for 5 3-6 seconds or maybe more and still shoot with pinpoint accuracy whereas the longbow sucks after aiming for 1 second :rolleyes:

I'm using a MW Tatar and working up a Nomad to MW. A longbow can't even shoot back at me with any accuracy at all. If they stand there they get hit and interrupted. If they dodge and then shoot, their reticule goes wide and they have like a 5% chance of hitting anything. At least the Rus bow can shoot back at me with the Tatar below 160 WPF. With Longbow taking 2 slots, they can't even switch out to another smaller bow as a pure archer with no melee weapon (if they want any arrows).

The longbow needs a longer hold time for their reticule, and they need to have much less of an effect on their reticule when strafing sideways. This isn't about realism (because I know that is opposite to realistic), but about game and internal bow balance.

I made another thread about internal bow balance that would change the entire focus and style. I'll either give it a bump or re-write it because the numbers I used were before the last patch. Or maybe I'll just leave it alone. I don't think they would get it right anyhow  :P