cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 02:32:22 am

Title: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 02:32:22 am
Shouldn't be possible but happens a lot of the time. It's completely retarded and should be made impossible. True story bro
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Earthdforce on March 17, 2012, 02:34:59 am
What is a bumpcouch? Couches already go through blocks as they are...
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 02:40:21 am
They miss with the lance, but the bump makes the couch still happen if you turn your lance over to the other side. Basically, you couch them with your lance point having missed and passed the enemy.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 17, 2012, 03:53:35 am
Yeah its a horrible trick, its like slowing down as you come in and turning hard but not slowing down enough to kill the couch.

My favorite, which is more just fancy skill than anything is riding some one down with the lance couched then jumping into the air, ditching the couch and slapping them in the face with a 1h sword, oh the glory and the whorishness.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Wookimonsta on March 18, 2012, 12:23:42 pm
Look, i've been a lancer a LONG time. And this shit rarely happens to me, same with bumpstab with the lance.
When it happens, it happens by accident to me. Maybe there are some people who can do this on purpose, but are there really that many?
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Vexus on March 18, 2012, 12:31:12 pm
In my opinion they should make using couch several times in the same map having complications on the actual lance.

Yes, I hate cavs that all they do in the whole round is couch couch couch.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Rumblood on March 18, 2012, 05:51:37 pm
I don't think bumping with couched lances is a problem. The ones that are a problem are those that use a melee weapon, bump the enemy, and then stab down through their horse chest and belly at the rider under the horse. Try that with a real horse  :P
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 18, 2012, 06:40:50 pm
I don't think bumping with couched lances is a problem. The ones that are a problem are those that use a melee weapon, bump the enemy, and then stab down through their horse chest and belly at the rider under the horse. Try that with a real horse  :P

That makes more sense than bump-couching with a heavy lance and that says a lot.

Tell me, how can you one-hit someone with a couch when you bumped him first? The lance point is past the nose of the horse which means it's some kind of dumb glitch in the game, you couldn't possibly bump someone and couch him afterwards realistacally. Scenario: Coucher charging you, you avoid the lance but end up under the horse, he magically throws his lance to the other side, couching you with the shaft of the lance. You're now dead.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 18, 2012, 09:46:31 pm
This crappy thing not only works with couched lance. Even a normal lancehit can hit/kill you after the bump, which is totally ridiculous :/

Bump means the horse hit you, means the tip of the lance has passed you already as the lance usually is further infront than the horses head or chest. Still people hit with their lance after they bumped someone...
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Rumblood on March 18, 2012, 10:50:03 pm
Tell me, how can you one-hit someone with a couch when you bumped him first?

The same way you can drag the first foot of the handle of a polearm across someones side and pierce them to death  :twisted:
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Renten on March 19, 2012, 12:22:25 am
The same way you can drag the first foot of the handle of a polearm across someones side and pierce them to death  :twisted:

Favourite is doing an overhead and then dragging it sideways into their feet.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Cepeshi on March 19, 2012, 12:37:05 am
Just happened to me, i bumped a guy and then couched him, wtf
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on March 19, 2012, 12:48:07 am
Minrange for lances!
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Wookimonsta on March 19, 2012, 09:58:09 am
maybe if we give back lancers their old turning rates and make them not made out of glass, cav will actually go back to fighting people instead of just sneak attacking everyone.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on March 19, 2012, 10:00:24 am
Doesn't have to do with sneakattacking Wookie. Cav always sneakattacked and always will do
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Vexus on March 19, 2012, 11:12:41 am
When you give cav the possibility to 1 shot, there will be many that will abuse it.

True Story.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Wookimonsta on March 19, 2012, 01:53:49 pm
a) its not always a one shot. The slower horses get quite a bit less damage

b) it works the other way too. The speed bonus makes cav VERY vulnerable.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 19, 2012, 01:58:34 pm
Couching is not the problem. That's a risky move which is mostly rewarded with a one-hit, fair enough. The problem is that some infantry/archer can dodge the couched lance but that the cav can still magically hit him if he bumps and throws over the lance to the other side to couch with the shaft of the lance.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Leshma on March 19, 2012, 02:04:21 pm
Couching is not the problem. That's a risky move which is mostly rewarded with a one-hit, fair enough.

Care to explain?
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 19, 2012, 02:06:04 pm
When you charge someone head on, it is risky. If you rape someone in the back like some true bastard, it isn't. :)
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Leshma on March 19, 2012, 02:11:53 pm
maybe if we give back lancers their old turning rates and make them not made out of glass, cav will actually go back to fighting people instead of just sneak attacking everyone.

NA cav fight differently from EU cav. They actually attack frontally, sometimes :shock:

Also they use cav formations. Not the shit GK does, go after one guy and bump him so he can't stand up. No. NA cav play differently and when they attack at least 10-15 enemies end up dead.

Also their best cav are way better than our best cav. Our cav are bump masters and couch heroes, there isn't more than five active cav left on EU servers that deserve to be called cavalry.

I'll just name few that aren't playing regularly and some that quit: Kerrigan (rarely see him), Leed (quit), Torben (rarely plays), Tommy (rarely see him), Ujin (he's on horse once in thousand games), Oberyn (seems to me that he quit cRPG)...

What is left is Chagan and his minions. While Chagan is a good cav, most of his clannies are bump masters and couch heroes. And most are terrible when de-horsed.

You remember what happened on last cav tourney, when there wasn't infantry to be bumped and couched from behind, what happened to glorius EU cavalry :lol:
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 19, 2012, 03:22:42 pm
Look, i've been a lancer a LONG time. And this shit rarely happens to me, same with bumpstab with the lance.
When it happens, it happens by accident to me. Maybe there are some people who can do this on purpose, but are there really that many?

Same.  I've only ever played heavy lance cavalry in c-rpg (as my main playstyle).  I've never bump stabbed or bump couched someone on purpose, it just happens sometimes where I'll miss the couch but bump the guy as I'm turning and my couch will connect with them.  It feels gimmicky and I feel guilty afterwards, but I've never intentionally done either.

I think the lance radius is too small, but I prefer it to having the 270 degree radius from before.  I think especially when you are stopped you should be able to turn your lance completely perpendicular to your body.  Also would be nice if you could turn your hands over and stab down when you're stopped on the horse.

a) its not always a one shot. The slower horses get quite a bit less damage

b) it works the other way too. The speed bonus makes cav VERY vulnerable.

Both good points.  Even on my champion courser I'd say 1/4 or 1/5 couches don't kill either because the person is running the same direction as my horse, or because they have heavy armor on.  I can get 1 shot pretty easily on horse from infantry builds who have more than 6 power strike when I'm riding 30mph at them.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Vexus on March 19, 2012, 03:33:47 pm
I don't see couching really so risky when you can cancel the attack.

With enough riding and the ideal horses even if your target moves, so can you.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Matey on March 20, 2012, 04:33:28 am
BAN CAV
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Kafein on March 20, 2012, 06:42:00 pm
Happens once over 100 successfull couches, and is barely possible to do intentionally. And even the few cav that manage to do that more or less intentionally put themselves at a great risk doing it. At least it compensates for a tiny part of all the couched lances that got through the enemy's model without registering for some obscure reason.

NA cav fight differently from EU cav. They actually attack frontally, sometimes :shock:

Also they use cav formations. Not the shit GK does, go after one guy and bump him so he can't stand up. No. NA cav play differently and when they attack at least 10-15 enemies end up dead.

Also their best cav are way better than our best cav. Our cav are bump masters and couch heroes, there isn't more than five active cav left on EU servers that deserve to be called cavalry.

I'll just name few that aren't playing regularly and some that quit: Kerrigan (rarely see him), Leed (quit), Torben (rarely plays), Tommy (rarely see him), Ujin (he's on horse once in thousand games), Oberyn (seems to me that he quit cRPG)...

What is left is Chagan and his minions. While Chagan is a good cav, most of his clannies are bump masters and couch heroes. And most are terrible when de-horsed.

You remember what happened on last cav tourney, when there wasn't infantry to be bumped and couched from behind, what happened to glorius EU cavalry :lol:

You got a point, but I'd like to see how NA cav does when confronted to EU inf and ranged though. The rare moments I played cav on NA servers, it felt much easier because people aren't flies using jetpacks over there. The 1st reason I tend not to charge aware people is because even shielders like myself have the required foot acceleration to dodge even the most maneuverable horse, and it gets way worse with ranged, often with >7 ath and extremely light armor. The more predictible the target is, the better for the cav. So it ends up with the best tactic being attacking people that are unaware.

Attacking frontally is extremely problematic in many cases, because you get shot and outranged by 2h and pikes. I guess it can work if you got a lot of cav teammates with you and coordinate your charge though. But with the EU cav pop being so scarce, the usual tactic consists in waiting for the melee fight to begin and attack the flanks/rear of the enemy team.

Its also related to the horses we use. NA top cav use armored horses, which offer the advantage of having okay maneuver at slower speeds, but also resist damage and capable of charging at people in front of them (even if it makes zero sense, in this game people can stop horses trained for war by standing in front of them, this stops with charge damage above ~34). The problem with nimble horses is that if you slow down too much, you get hit more often, and that's a critical problem. This is also why we don't charge often over here. When you have positions guarded by 2 or more archers, you can expect your horse to die before killing anyone, if you are alone.


Care to explain?

A couche lance is easily dodged. Even with a 1h you can retaliate with a right swing at the horse's legs. Whenever I'm on foot and someone tries to couchlance me, I do that and usually kill the horse. Now, couching unaware people is a whole different story of course. The risks are there, but they depend on the tactical situation.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 20, 2012, 07:13:50 pm
+1 to your post.  One correction, and one additional note about something you said:

Correction: 
Quote
NA top cav use armored horses

I don't think that was ever true.  Armored horses were more prevalent for a while after they made coursers from 4 to 6 riding, but I think the top cav were pretty much always on coursers or destriers.  Now it's mainly coursers and arabians. 

Addition: 
Quote
But with the EU cav pop being so scarce, the usual tactic consists in waiting for the melee fight to begin and attack the flanks/rear of the enemy team.

That's most cav's tactics, anywhere.  I believe that was how they were used a lot throughout history as well.  I don't get why people in other threads are complaining that cavalry is being used in the most logical (and historically accurate) way possible.

Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Rumblood on March 20, 2012, 11:28:13 pm
I don't see couching really so risky when you can cancel the attack.

With enough riding and the ideal horses even if your target moves, so can you.

Try to couch me. I shoot your face off or slam a speed bonus arrow into your chest and sidestep your pony on the opposite side of your lance. Or headshot your horse. If you break off in time to avoid it, you were never in a position to couch me in the first place.

Unless you are Cyranule. Fuck you Cyranule!  :P

Oh yeah, as Leshma pointed out that the cavalry train also gets me as I dodge the first lance, but step into the path of the 2nd  :oops:
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: _Tak_ on March 21, 2012, 08:47:40 am
There is no way to remove this, unless the dev remove the bump damage
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Bulzur on March 21, 2012, 08:56:24 am
There is no way to remove this, unless the dev remove the bump damage

Then, what are they waiting ? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 21, 2012, 09:08:41 am
(click to show/hide)

The only way to do it intentionally is with the double side lance, its fun to do against shielders. It is however difficult but completely reasonable. Its 1) realistish 2) skillful.

What I find much funnier is when you survive the couch and get killed by the bump.

Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Smoothrich on March 21, 2012, 09:29:23 am
i bump stab people with lance intentionally all the time, always go for it when i frontally attack shielders (i always man up)

bump couching happens if you go at an angle and are sweeping your lance a bit with your mouse, its kind of wonky but who cares, if you were couched you were probably gonna die anyways, the bump is just adding insult to (fatal) injury
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Leshma on March 21, 2012, 11:07:21 am
There is no way to remove this, unless the dev remove the bump damage

While I would love to see that, I'm afraid it would be greatest nerf cav ever seen. Bumping is very important feature for cavalry.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 21, 2012, 12:40:02 pm
bump couching happens if you go at an angle and are sweeping your lance a bit with your mouse, its kind of wonky but who cares, if you were couched you were probably gonna die anyways, the bump is just adding insult to (fatal) injury

No, since you just avoided the lance, it's passed you before the horse bumps you, and the wonky mechanic makes it possible to couch you with the shaft if you throw your lance over. It's completely stupid that you can die to a couched lance you dodged.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 21, 2012, 01:33:48 pm
Wow I've never heard of this shit before... I think I must then couch more than actually stabbity stabbing people so I can get this magnificent achievement :twisted:
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Renten on March 21, 2012, 04:52:35 pm
I've been trying, but I can only do it with the heavy lance. Seems like the couching lances are just too long and the hit box goes well past the people (if it doesn't just travel straight through them without doing anything). The normal lance is already so short in couch mode that it barely extends past the horse so bump couches just turn into normal couches (albeit through your horses neck).

Other things I've noticed. When your team mate clearly sees you in a couch riding up behind their enemy there is a 90% chance they will run 180 degrees around that enemy in order to take a couch in the back at the last second.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Rumblood on March 21, 2012, 10:15:21 pm
No, since you just avoided the lance, it's passed you before the horse bumps you, and the wonky mechanic makes it possible to couch you with the shaft if you throw your lance over. It's completely stupid that you can die to a couched lance you dodged.

It's because the horses shoulders are wider than the horse. It all about angles and sweeping the lance. It's easy to avoid when you see someone trying to do it, if you realize it in time. Rather than ducking to the side of the horse opposite the lance, you go TO the lance (and past it) before the cavalry realizes it and stops his sweep (by not continuing to turn his horse).

Poking with polearms and turning so it hits them with the shaft, but pierces anyhow is far more lame and more deserving of a fix. Not to mention those overhand mauls that hit the ground and then have the shaft turned into you for the full crushing blow also is more deserving of a fix than this.

And no I'm not cavalry, but I fight them in the open field all the time.  :wink:
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 21, 2012, 10:43:15 pm
Poking with polearms and turning so it hits them with the shaft, but pierces anyhow is far more lame and more deserving of a fix.

Nah, people can run into a chambered spear in this game. The lolstabs is a nice way to symbolize that you shouldn't be safe charging a chambered pike/spear.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Rumblood on March 22, 2012, 01:08:01 am
Nah, people can run into a chambered spear in this game. The lolstabs is a nice way to symbolize that you shouldn't be safe charging a chambered pike/spear.

This is realism not symbolism!

When they stab to my left and then swing that pole into my side, I can just tuck that shaft under my arm and hold on while giving them a mace to the face!

And grab that lance and yank the rider off his horse!

 :P
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on March 22, 2012, 01:10:32 am
Let me put it this way. If you could remove that bump couching you wouldn't kill the class, regular couches would still hit and kill. If you remove spinstabs you kill all one/two-directional weapons.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Rumblood on March 22, 2012, 03:42:44 am
I think it would. The only fix is to make only the first 6 inches of lance "active" or make infantry immune to a weapon for 1/2 second after a bump.

Cavalry would disappear.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Elmetiacos on April 06, 2012, 12:50:33 am
I've been trying, but I can only do it with the heavy lance. Seems like the couching lances are just too long and the hit box goes well past the people (if it doesn't just travel straight through them without doing anything). The normal lance is already so short in couch mode that it barely extends past the horse so bump couches just turn into normal couches (albeit through your horses neck).
Without trying, I bump-couched with a light lance last night, so it isn't just for heavy lances.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on April 06, 2012, 01:11:26 am
Done it with both heavy lance and great lance which is the only lances I've bothered to use. It's silly with both. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 06, 2012, 01:18:06 am
Done it with both heavy lance and great lance which is the only lances I've bothered to use. It's silly with both. :rolleyes:

It's the same effect as being hit with a pike when you're 12 inches in front of the person stabbing you.  Would be nice if they just fixed the underlying problem of being able to hit someone 12 inches away even if your weapon is 5 feet or 15 feet long.
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on April 06, 2012, 01:23:24 am
It's the same effect as being hit with a pike when you're 12 inches in front of the person stabbing you.  Would be nice if they just fixed the underlying problem of being able to hit someone 12 inches away even if your weapon is 5 feet or 15 feet long.

Nah, people can run into a chambered spear in this game. The lolstabs is a nice way to symbolize that you shouldn't be safe charging a chambered pike/spear.

Completely different things. Lolstabs makes some sense because it's the game's way of showing that running into a chambered spear should be dangerous. On the other hand missing a couch, bump someone and then kill him with the shaft is just retarded. It's funny to do, but I still feel kind of bad after doing it. :|
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Vexus on April 06, 2012, 01:29:36 am
How can it make sense when the pike/long spear goes through the ground to complete the lolstab?
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Gurnisson on April 06, 2012, 01:36:09 am
How can it make sense when the pike/long spear goes through the ground to complete the lolstab?

It doesn't and haven't done for an eternity. Ground-collision made that impossible. Only way is to stab to the side and turn it in afterwards but those can easily miss too. :)
Title: Re: Bumpcouching with Heavy Lance
Post by: Vexus on April 06, 2012, 01:48:08 am
It does, the pole thrust animation makes it "easier" to avoid collision with some training.