cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Joker86 on March 09, 2012, 12:16:54 am
-
Edit: crap, posted in the wrong forum, was meant to be in the general suggestions forum. If someone would move the topic I wouldn't be sad, but actually it's not that important. :mrgreen:
Thomek suggested me to keep my posts short, so I will try:
My idea would be to add some kind of overhead stab animation for all spear like weapons, including pikes. Yes, an ADDITIONAL animation, resulting in a second attack direction. The two handed version of this animation would look like in Fire&Sword, the one handed would probably look a bit like the throwing animation. Of course it is supposed to have the same stopping power against horses like the ordinary stab.
Next to this make jumping interrupt all attacks immediately, and obviously you also can't start a new one while jumping. Additionaly I would like to see a vastly lowered turning speed while stabbing with any weapon. I HATE jump stabs, jump slashes and spin stabs. It looks crappy, and always a bit lame to me. It's not what Mount & Blade wanted to be like, in my opinion.
In short:
(1) Add overhead stab for spears and pikes, both one handed and two handed
(2) Implement jumps making it impossible to attack
(3) Lower turning speed while stabbing with any weapon
Results:
(1) => spear and pike weapons would become more viable. It would be the heavily needed buff for hoplites.
(2) + (3) => would still make the buff not too severe, especially for pikes
(1) => will probably lead to an increased amount of spears and pikes on the servers
=> this will lead to a change in melee. It will almost always be a melee in four lines: the both front infantry lines with 1hd+shield, 2hd and two handed polearms, and the both support lines with pikemen, spearmen and hoplites.
=> (1) will make it more difficult for the front line to survive, because simply downblocking won't protect any more
=> this means that the amount of two handed weapons will lower (for the sake of variety, YESSSS!!!), and the amount of shields will increase (shields are one of the most important aspects of infantry in the game, I think)
=> the higher amount of 1hd+shield will make up for the cav nerf that applied the the increased number of spears. Perhaps you can even lower horse upkeep, or combine this with an increased difficulty of horses, to make cav more sustainable, gold wise
=> the higher amount of shielders will nerf archers, which is not really a bad thing in my opinion, but f the nerf is too severe (at the moment archers seem to be fine, to be honest :? ) you can buff ranged items a bit again, so no problem there
And no, I don't think that two attack directions make spears OP, you already have enough spears with an overhead swing, and they are anything else but difficult to fight. And if you meet two or more of them it's just as much of a problem as meeting two two handers. Perhaps even a bit less of a problem, depending on whether the slower turning speed of stabs and the flexibility of swung weapons can make up for the longer reach of the spears or not. I can't tell.
P.S.: lowering the turning speed of overhead swings for crushthrough weapons could lower my feeling of rage when blocking properly and yet dying to one of those things. :wink:
-
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Sorry Joker, it was my time to shine :D
-
Come on, my suggestion is not THAT much of mindfuck :P
-
Indirect nerf to swashbuckler, can't agree.
-
Indirect nerf to swashbuckler, can't agree.
To what? :? :?:
-
1h sword, no shield
-
1h sword, no shield
Well, I fear you are right about this. In this special case they count as two handers and thus would suffer a bit.
I don't want to start a discussion about those swashbucklers now, but they are a VERY small group in the community, I wouldn't even call them an own class (game balance wise), and finally nothing speaks against swashbucklers using a shield when needed, and putting it on the back whenever they can. It's not like a shield brings more disadvantages than benefits, isn't it? :wink:
-
1) Breaks style
2) Limits build (I have 0 shield skill on my main)
And I beg to differ, as the only known swashbuckler I demand to be included as my own class :(
-
If you are able to block manually (and you should be, as swashbuckler), I don't think the nerf would be that severe for you. Footwork is the key here, anyway. Just don't run into the middle of the clusterfuck, and you'll do no worse than before.
-
For normal spears and hoplites this would be really nice. Pikes and longspears really don't need any buffs right now though. Saying this as a dedicated pikeman in a clan full of dedicated pikemen, the pike and longspear are fine as they are.
However with this, I disagree on the removal of jump attacks and slowing down of turning while thrusting. Hoplites really need the spin in order to effectively hit targets that aren't just impaling themselves on their weapon. Additionally it would make medium-high agi characters able to just run around anyone using a 1 or 2 directional weapon and just spam them without any fear of being stabbed.
Fighting with a pike 1v1 currently involves lots of jumping and stabbing, which are very very risky for the pikeman if he screws it up, and all the opponent needs to do is downblock until they get hit and then retaliate, then downblock again and wait. With this change a lot of dedicated pikeman (myself included) would make very high agi characters and kite enemies, then do a quick turn around, charge the enemy, and stab. Frankly, I see this as being a hell of a lot more annoying than jump stabs, and would make duels take forever. I refuse to stop dueling with my pike! :wink:
Jump attacks need to stay for one other major reason as well. Currently, someone gets on a rock and starts attacking down from it, it's very easy to just do a quick jump attack and throw him off it. If jump attacks are removed, someone getting on a platform only accessible by jumping, and using a long weapon, would make him essentially invincible until an archer comes by.
-
1) Breaks style
2) Limits build (I have 0 shield skill on my main)
And I beg to differ, as the only known swashbuckler I demand to be included as my own class :(
Me for some gens :|, Dreadson, I think is sbing now.
-
Is he? Though he was too low level to use most of his gear, since he's got the right helmet but a priest robe.
-
There should be an under stab and an over stab. One stab going under the sheild and the other being poked over the top. It will still be a thrust attack but people will have to block up to block it.
-
No, this would just fuck up melee.
1. All stabs would be practically useless, especially the 2h one. If you can't turn your stab, how the hell are you going to aim it? How is it going to be in any way usable in close-range?
2. Jump-attacks are vital for fighting cavalry, especially for 1h. Try MM or WFaS and you'll see how fucked up having no jumpattacks is for fighting cavalry. + It's an interesting tool in melee that adds a tiny bit of temporary reach at the expense of later movement restriction.
3. Hoplites and pikemen are fine.
Playing hoplite with War Spear + light shield is probably one of the better classes out there atm. Its the best "swiss army knife" melee build. Sure you need judgement to decide when to put the shield away and such to make something out of it, (some (quite many) hoplites have this strange idea that being a hoplite means running around with a spear + shield all the time, and then they complain hoplites aren't viable in 1v1) but then that goes for any build incorporating a shield.
Pike/Long Spear are still top-tier also. Sure, they have a more niche-role but they do that extremely well. One decent pikeman completely shuts down the ability for players to efficiently fight his group + they're excellent for groupfighting in general.
Apart from this: Do you really want melee combat to resolve around pikes/spears/hoplites? Historically accurate? Probably. Fun? No fucking way. Many clans already run support-polearm teams very efficiently, join them if you want in on that kind of gameplay.
Also, shielders are fine (in melee). The efficient and fun use of a shield depends on there being many non-shielders to fight since shield vs. shield is extremely boring, dull, inefficient and time-consuming. So I don't see why you have a problem with there being many twohanders running around.
-
Additionally it would make medium-high agi characters able to just run around anyone using a 1 or 2 directional weapon and just spam them without any fear of being stabbed.
I don't get that part... :?
Fighting with a pike 1v1 currently involves lots of jumping and stabbing, which are very very risky for the pikeman if he screws it up, and all the opponent needs to do is downblock until they get hit and then retaliate, then downblock again and wait. With this change a lot of dedicated pikeman (myself included) would make very high agi characters and kite enemies, then do a quick turn around, charge the enemy, and stab. Frankly, I see this as being a hell of a lot more annoying than jump stabs, and would make duels take forever. I refuse to stop dueling with my pike! :wink:
Well, that kiting you described wouldn't work, because of the reduced turning speed. You would need to turn towards the enemy and THEN release the stab, which means he will block it most likely.
Jump attacks need to stay for one other major reason as well. Currently, someone gets on a rock and starts attacking down from it, it's very easy to just do a quick jump attack and throw him off it. If jump attacks are removed, someone getting on a platform only accessible by jumping, and using a long weapon, would make him essentially invincible until an archer comes by.
Oh, I forgot t write this: blocking works while jumping. I thought about this, too, and I came to the conclusion that being able to get up there, too by blocking should be sufficient for most cases.
No, this would just fuck up melee.
1. All stabs would be practically useless, especially the 2h one. If you can't turn your stab, how the hell are you going to aim it? How is it going to be in any way usable in close-range?
You can turn it, but spin stabs should become impossible. It's a matter of balancing the reduced speed.
2. Jump-attacks are vital for fighting cavalry, especially for 1h. Try MM or WFaS and you'll see how fucked up having no jumpattacks is for fighting cavalry. + It's an interesting tool in melee that adds a tiny bit of temporary reach at the expense of later movement restriction.
I know. But that's part of my suggestion. Leave fighting cav to those who are meant for it.
3. Hoplites and pikemen are fine.
Playing hoplite with War Spear + light shield is probably one of the better classes out there atm. Its the best "swiss army knife" melee build. Sure you need judgement to decide when to put the shield away and such to make something out of it, (some (quite many) hoplites have this strange idea that being a hoplite means running around with a spear + shield all the time, and then they complain hoplites aren't viable in 1v1) but then that goes for any build incorporating a shield.
Still I think especially hoplites are UP. And if you talk about putting your shield away you even have those two directions I was talking of. The only difference is, that the only use of the overhead is to stun people a bit, in least cases it does good (!) damage. Playing with a shield further reduces your damage by 35% I think. And being able to walk up a wall of spears by b locking down is retarded. Why should you be able to walk up a line of spearmen, but not a line of... any other class?
Pike/Long Spear are still top-tier also. Sure, they have a more niche-role but they do that extremely well. One decent pikeman completely shuts down the ability for players to efficiently fight his group + they're excellent for groupfighting in general.
We agree on this.
Also, shielders are fine (in melee). The efficient and fun use of a shield depends on there being many non-shielders to fight since shield vs. shield is extremely boring, dull, inefficient and time-consuming. So I don't see why you have a problem with there being many twohanders running around.
People would adjust to it. For example you would probably have more crushthrough builds to counter the many shielders.
I think you noticed that the suggestion is also on making infantry players more dependant on each other. The idea behind this is to make infantry play more in a team, which would buff this class in relation to cav and archers, because the reason why infantry that is rather skilled still gets killed easily by cav or archers is missing teamplay and wrong behaviours. It's what I wrote in my "Dear devs..." topic.
-
Can someone please add "Straw Man" as Joker's title?
-
«straw Clausewitz» would fit even better
-
I don't get that part... :?
High ath (or even medium ath with good footwork) can be used to circle around an opponent and confuse the shit out of them. With side swings, as long as it's aimed and timed properly from the start, the other player needs to block, or gets hit. With thrusts and overheads, it's quite possible to simply dodge them by running AROUND the player at facehugging range, unless they turn the attack. This is how I fight maulers, just run around them and spam. If you slow down the turn rate, it would make it extremely difficult for weapons that rely on their overheads or thrusts to deal with high agi facehuggers.
Well, that kiting you described wouldn't work, because of the reduced turning speed. You would need to turn towards the enemy and THEN release the stab, which means he will block it most likely.
I never said it would be effective, actually that was kind of my point. It would be absurdly annoying and would make fights take forever, but would be the only way to fight 1v1 with a pike, and as I said, I refuse to stop dueling with my pike.
Oh, I forgot t write this: blocking works while jumping. I thought about this, too, and I came to the conclusion that being able to get up there, too by blocking should be sufficient for most cases.
In the case of one person being up there, or multiple unorganized people yes, that would be sufficient. But get 2 guys up there who are coordinating their attacks and the same problem arises.
You really seem to want more teamwork, but why don't you just join a teamwork oriented clan? I got tired of just running with randomers all the time as well; that's actually why I joined my clan. We coordinate and use teamwork constantly in Battle, and it works ridiculously well. Teamwork is already incredibly OP, :wink: making it stronger won't make teamwork more prevalent, it would just make people complain more about teamwork oriented weapons than they do already, unfortunately. A lot of the community just really doesn't seem to want to work with the team while playing Battle, regardless of how effective it is.
-
Just my view but in another mod (deluge) the pikes have a over hand stab and it seems totally reasonable. You can stab over team mates, change up your attack direction, and all in all really useful but easy to beat. I don't see any reason weapons with only 2 attack direction shouldn't get it.
-
In the old days me and koldborn used a long spear each. One did overheads, one did stabs which with that length was totally retarded. You want two pikers to both have a weapon direction with pierce damage and that length? It would completely ruin the balance. As of now there are no problem with pikes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it
-
As of now there are no problem with pikes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it
Hmn.. pikes are completely broken thx to being able to hit trough team mates and objects making any melee cluster fuck incredibly boring sometimes...
-
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Sorry Joker, it was my time to shine :D
"Moot is a bundle of sticks lol"
that the mindfuck?
-
I agree with jokers suggestions.
-
I agree with jokers suggestions.
You're the first one probably
-
No, this would just fuck up melee.
1. All stabs would be practically useless, especially the 2h one. If you can't turn your stab, how the hell are you going to aim it? How is it going to be in any way usable in close-range?
THATS THE DAM POINT. You shouldnt be able to Jump 360 lulstab someone with with most polearms.
-
THATS THE DAM POINT. You shouldnt be able to Jump 360 lulstab someone with with most polearms.
Why exactly not?
Also: The pole stab would probably be the best stab with the change, it's the 2h stab that will become utterly useless.