cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Keshian on March 04, 2011, 04:32:25 am

Title: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Keshian on March 04, 2011, 04:32:25 am
Make throwing lances damage be reduced to 35 pierce (this will be new highest pierce damage weapon thrown), but get triple damage to shields.  This offers a useful weapon for team support in getting rid of OP shielders (huscarl), but without the excessive damage of the current model. 
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Warcat on March 04, 2011, 04:45:11 am
Interesting suggestion, would completely change their current role from anti cax/2h tincan to anti shielder.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Phoenix on March 04, 2011, 04:46:05 am
Could be a good idea since I don't see a whole lot of throwing lancers anymore.. and since I am in a Roman Clan I love this idea.

+1

EDIT: Although I do not know how the community would feel about having that triple shield damage.  All I would see is moar QQ less Pew Pew.  ALSO chadz ADD SOME ROMAN ARMOR
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 04, 2011, 05:06:16 am
Make throwing lances damage be reduced to 35 pierce (this will be new highest pierce damage weapon thrown), but get triple damage to shields.  This offers a useful weapon for team support in getting rid of OP shielders (huscarl), but without the excessive damage of the current model.

I love you.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Centurion on March 04, 2011, 05:32:18 am
Great Idea now we just need to make a shield and a couple body armors and helmets.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Tigerclaw on March 04, 2011, 06:53:03 am
I don't know about removing throwing lances entirely, but I would love to see pila in the game.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Mamachew on March 04, 2011, 07:21:27 am
Great idea overall. It would add a whole new depth to how throwing weapons could be used to support. Also, roman armour + weapons? Heck yeah!
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Warcat on March 04, 2011, 08:02:27 am
If this were done, price should be dropped a lot. 547g repairs is WAY to much for a weapon that is only good for helping out againist shielders.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Duster on March 04, 2011, 08:44:55 am
Keep lances
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Meow on March 04, 2011, 03:48:07 pm
(click to show/hide)

:mrgreen:
thanks for helping me test this guys!

and do what the OP said.
give throwers some utility :D
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 04:14:03 pm
love this idea
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Punisher on March 04, 2011, 04:18:01 pm
Make throwing lances damage be reduced to 35 pierce (this will be new highest pierce damage weapon thrown), but get triple damage to shields.  This offers a useful weapon for team support in getting rid of OP shielders (huscarl), but without the excessive damage of the current model.

I especially like this.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Spawny on March 04, 2011, 04:27:59 pm
Could be nice.

I use balanced heavy axes now to bust shields and skulls. With sufficient PS 44 cut damage will do the trick regardless of armour. Usually 1-3 hits to kill anyone.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Poetrydog on March 04, 2011, 04:41:42 pm
I'd love roman Pilums but why convert them? Just make it two different high tier throwing weapons. Will give more variety and I also see why the lances should disappear.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Native_ATS on March 05, 2011, 05:09:32 am
Make throwing lances damage be reduced to 35 pierce (this will be new highest pierce damage weapon thrown), but get triple damage to shields.  This offers a useful weapon for team support in getting rid of OP shielders (huscarl), but without the excessive damage of the current model.
ewww i dont belive this would be good at all, i need 24 str to throw lances? and there 5p weaker then jaivs and throwing spears?  my stack of 2 is 35p means i have to use both to kill a man, so i need 24 str to have a mid/low range weapon that can 2 shot people, if they have a sheild am fucked.... must use 1-2 to brake a sheild... the round sheild has 300hp, so i need 2 to brake it? then am left with none O.O

if they want to fix the throwing isseus i would say just raise the PT cost of all throwing by 2 for low teirs and 1 for higher teirs.
maybe weaken or change how javs and throwing spears work, but lances shouldnt be messed with, you get 4 javs but 2 lances.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Centurion on March 05, 2011, 05:30:50 am
Looks good meow. Also would you mind helping with designs for roman armor. Im having trouble. I know the good mods for the armours just not how to input them.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Patricia on March 05, 2011, 05:38:32 am
I see, Native having a boner for throwing as always.

Thing is throwing lances are just too easy, you can one hit people while just running around, I'd know, I tried and it's easy as hell.

I think at one point you mentionned crossbows being overpowered because you can kill people in 2 hits which makes me laugh, since all you use is COUCH (easily one hit capable) THROWING LANCES (easily one hit capable from a range) LONG MAUL (easily one hit capable through a block).


I say just severely reduce the speed rating and the damage by a bit.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: BlackMilk on March 05, 2011, 12:11:23 pm
Make throwing lances damage be reduced to 35 pierce (this will be new highest pierce damage weapon thrown), but get triple damage to shields.  This offers a useful weapon for team support in getting rid of OP shielders (huscarl), but without the excessive damage of the current model.
I especially like this.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Kafein on March 05, 2011, 12:25:28 pm
Throwing axes can allready crush shields very reliably. The tradeoff is realistic arc and a less unrealistic reload speed. Throwing lances have no tradeoff. Just randomly go in a mob or be alone. The only thing threatening you is arrows and bolts. You are immune to cav (1 lance in the horse, then in the guy, or directly in the guy). In a mob you just go near the enemy and randomly throw. As one hit will likely be one kill...

I stated my opinion on needed changes about throwing in another thread, but the short version is :

Make it dependant on running direction. Throwing a steel weapon without running forward in a straight line for 2meters is just meant to fail utterly.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Tai Feng on March 05, 2011, 12:26:44 pm
+1
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Dravic on March 05, 2011, 05:31:08 pm
If you dont want to remove throwing lances, change their dmg type from pierce to cut. it will be shield cutter madness, tho tincans wont die in 1hit as they do now.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 05, 2011, 06:37:25 pm
Posted in another topic
Pila were used to disable shields by making them too cumbersome to wield. They were not designed to kill people but to break phalanxes.


Throwing lances are stupid, they need considerable balancing or to be removed (or remade into the role of a Pilum using on-hit weight adding triggers at the cost of making them 30 damage and a bit more accurate. Seriously it would be cool to have something tactical like that rather than an "lol insta-kill no skill".)

It isn't that they are accurate but how inaccurate they are which makes them only usable in close to melee range. And oh yes do they one hit kill. Sure, there are times when people survive but that is generally rare or a high HP build being hit by a low PT thrower with no speed bonus.
I'm a thrower and with 10 PT I can one-shot Wallace and he is a super heavy tin can. I should not one-hit a guy with 70+ body armor and 10+ IronFlesh unless it is a headshot.
They don't currently serve any game use for balance or an interesting gimmick like "ohoho it adds tons of weight to a shield like a pilum so it makes it too heavy to use".

The usual arguments in favor of the throwing lance come along these few points so I'll just counter them now:
1. You only get 2 per stack. : You can pick them up. That is 2 dead things or destroyed shields. per stack. You can have 4 stacks.
2. They are really expensive. : Uh yeah, So is wearing plate. The top tier of everything is really expensive. Except you can onehit guys wearing plate which costs way more.
3. They have terrible accuracy : Not a reason to give them sympathy but rather a reason why they are so bad for the game. And due to it being an inaccurate just-be-close weapon that means it requires little skill to use effectively, and, more player skill produces no rewards.

Oh, how can I forget this too: They are a weapon that 1 hits enemies with little to no danger to himself. It is a high reward - no risk weapon. Every other weapon that can come even anywhere close to the one hit capabilities of a throwing lances are High risk to the user.
*Adding another note to this post is that the defense of one imbalanced thing by citing another even more imbalanced thing [see: jarids] is not an actual credible argument.
**Throwing is undergoing a nerf already to make jarids, for example, not super ultra OP anymore.

Anyways, the way pilums would work is that when a pilum hit a shield it would add, let's say, 15 weight to the shield. This would render the character much slower and disable the shield's usability considerably --but not completely -- much like what actual pila do. This would be a logical and functional rebalance of throwing lances that I think is rather reasonable.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Native_ATS on March 06, 2011, 06:11:11 am
I see, Native having a boner for throwing as always.

Thing is throwing lances are just too easy, you can one hit people while just running around, I'd know, I tried and it's easy as hell.

I think at one point you mentionned crossbows being overpowered because you can kill people in 2 hits which makes me laugh, since all you use is COUCH (easily one hit capable) THROWING LANCES (easily one hit capable from a range) LONG MAUL (easily one hit capable through a block).


I say just severely reduce the speed rating and the damage by a bit.
i dare you to use a long maul and go 8-1  :shock: u miss once they spam you  lol, am all str, so am slow i use the long maul for laughs, real 1 hit kills weapons is my long axe o.o
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Tristan on March 07, 2011, 02:54:29 am
+1 op
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Diomedes on March 07, 2011, 05:36:13 am
Before this gets implemented the main game designers/balancers need to work out a coherent picture of what throwing should look like.  The issue is when throwers become a master of all trades instead of a jack of all trades.  It shouldn't be the case that a build  is both unbearably dangerous in both distance and close quarters.  I think the main premises of the throwing build are that it should either be a supporting class, for dedicated throwers, or a hybrid technique that gives protection against kiting bowmen and horses while slighting handicapping them against more dedicated hand-to-hand builds.  How this can be done or whether it objectively should be done I really don't know.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Hauptmann on March 07, 2011, 06:59:18 am
I support this 100%. Lances are super silly, no other weapon has the damage potential.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: MountedRhader on March 07, 2011, 07:08:03 am
Change Lances to Pilums = Yes
Reduce Damage to lances to 52 give or take a few = Yes
Remove lances altogether = Not quite ..  8-)
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on March 07, 2011, 08:49:16 am
DONT TRY TO IMPLEMENT ACIENT USELESS STUFF! MOUNT&BLADE: WARBAND ARE SET IN THE MIDDLEAGES!

o how often i has to remember the ppl... -,-
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 07, 2011, 10:58:43 am
DONT TRY TO IMPLEMENT ACIENT USELESS STUFF! MOUNT&BLADE: WARBAND ARE SET IN THE MIDDLEAGES!

o how often i has to remember the ppl... -,-
Timelines work like this, you know: <----earlier stuff---------"present" stuff ------- Later stuff--->>
Something that happened earlier can still exist in the "present" (In this case, Middle ages), while stuff that hasn't happened yet can't. Pilums are perfectly OK and they are certainly not useless.

And even more so what this is actually for is balance, which over-rides all other reasoning.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Madcat on March 07, 2011, 11:26:46 am
Throwing axes can allready crush shields very reliably. The tradeoff is realistic arc and a less unrealistic reload speed. Throwing lances have no tradeoff. Just randomly go in a mob or be alone. The only thing threatening you is arrows and bolts. You are immune to cav (1 lance in the horse, then in the guy, or directly in the guy). In a mob you just go near the enemy and randomly throw. As one hit will likely be one kill...

I stated my opinion on needed changes about throwing in another thread, but the short version is :

Make it dependant on running direction. Throwing a steel weapon without running forward in a straight line for 2meters is just meant to fail utterly.

But throwing axes also kills people without a shield. Why would you waste your axes on destroying a shield?
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Solidox on March 07, 2011, 11:30:39 am
So let me get this right, You want throwers to get a weapon to take out shielders... the throwers weakness. While we are at it why don't we give horsemen the lance of comp again but add thrust as well just so they can deal with those pesky pikes.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Dexxtaa on March 07, 2011, 04:44:00 pm
So let me get this right, You want throwers to get a weapon to take out shielders... the throwers weakness. While we are at it why don't we give horsemen the lance of comp again but add thrust as well just so they can deal with those pesky pikes.

There are plenty of people killer throwing weapons out there. It doesn't make sense to have the single, most powerful weapon in the game to be a RANGED weapon at the same time.

I really like this idea of pilums. It might be the only throwing weapon that actually worked well back in the day.

If a name change was implemented to "Pilum," it might even end up with me flinging those things around. Brings me back to Battlefield2142.

AYE ??  AYE ??

Pilum??? AYE?!
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on March 07, 2011, 05:19:30 pm
marathon dont be stupid. mount & blade warband/crpg is set in middle ages. even today no one uses 17th guns in military.

so the medieval ppl didnt use acient stuff either.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 07, 2011, 05:24:38 pm
marathon dont be stupid. mount & blade warband/crpg is set in middle ages. even today no one uses 17th guns in military.

so the medieval ppl didnt use acient stuff either.
Well, no, as 17th century guns are vastly inferior. That argument doesn't really apply to the pilum as it would not be inferior at all.
Besides, it is just an elongated throwing spear designed to stick into shields. Really, besides realism =/= this mod. We have samurai gear and giant plated chargers in this mod, you know?
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 07, 2011, 05:39:51 pm
We already use "useless" crap in this fake setting, seeing as the time range is from 800 to 1450 fro these things, or even worse actually considering there are Spanish Conquistador weaponry and armor in this mod.

Actually I may as well next week end take all of the available "to buy" stuff and categorize it by year and publish it on these forums, just so we can all see the massive time divergence. This mod goes far beyond the middle ages and right into the renaissance, yet conversely predates a lot of middle-age weaponry by sporting weapons and armor that were only in use during the consolidation of Britannia.

Why? Well, I think because 1 it is a game 2 it is fun and 3 people like ninjas (that are really shinobi).
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: jspook on March 07, 2011, 07:07:28 pm
marathon dont be stupid. mount & blade warband/crpg is set in middle ages. even today no one uses 17th guns in military.

so the medieval ppl didnt use acient stuff either.

False.  Medieval people used lots of ancient weaponry.  They used whatever was on hand, actually.  And where do you think seige towers came from?  Most effective seige weaponry was designed in the BC and remained effective weapons until the advent of the cannon.  Some weapons remained in use and unchanged in style for almost a thousand years before gunpowder changed everything.  Look at the bow and arrow, for instance.  And yes, the Pilum was still in use in the middle ages even if the roman armors and shields were not. 
One of the main reason the roman armors were discarded was that they were too expensive to produce.  Rome, as an empire had vast resources.  the small fiefdoms that emerged after its collapse, did not.  and yet...  the style of roman armor still endured and transformed into more inexpensive armor types, like the Cuirass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuirass) which lasted through most of the middle ages and well into the age of gunpowder.

Your assumtions, sir, are wrong.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Khalim on March 07, 2011, 07:10:42 pm
Quote
Your assumtions, sir, are wrong.

Does not matter. He has the right point of view. I also think that ancient weapons do not fit into the time of mount and blade. It would be like mixing different genres. And it does not matter if it was realistic or not. The atmosphere would change to a saturedays mod, where the designer puts all stuff into, what he has.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: jspook on March 07, 2011, 07:17:26 pm
Does not matter. He has the right point of view. I also think that ancient weapons do not fit into the time of mount and blade. It would be like mixing different genres. And it does not matter if it was realistic or not. The atmosphere would change to a saturedays mod, where the designer puts all stuff into, what he has.

And it isnt, already???  with all the ninjas and Samurai and Chinese Warlords running around in Europe at that timeframe??

The game is about having fun with a balanced hand to hand combat system. (and archery)

The key word here was FUN

As long as the items are introduced into the game with the proper balances in place, then there shouldnt be an issue for anyone.  This nonsense about aesthetics was out the window as soon as they decided to throw in all of the eastern weapons and play styles.

And while we are at it, I would LOVE to see the flamboyant conquistador armors and weapons introduced into the game.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Memento_Mori on March 07, 2011, 07:24:43 pm


So let me get this right, You want throwers to get a weapon to take out shielders... the throwers weakness. While we are at it why don't we give horsemen the lance of comp again but add thrust as well just so they can deal with those pesky pikes.

how do shielders counter throwers?


They have an abundance of bonus against shield weapons, I fail to see this logic please explain.

Does not matter. He has the right point of view. I also think that ancient weapons do not fit into the time of mount and blade. It would be like mixing different genres. And it does not matter if it was realistic or not. The atmosphere would change to a saturedays mod, where the designer puts all stuff into, what he has.

I think we're playing different games, are you playing Mount & Blade, Mount & Blade: Warband, or are you playing Mount & Blade: C-rpg?

Mount & Blade: C-rpg makes it fit because it's C-rpg, it's not Mount & Blade :Europe 1267, or any similarly specific title. So maybe it does fit, and you're just looking at it the wrong way. There are plenty of other mods that try to stay as close to historically accurate as possible, maybe that's what you're looking for.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 07, 2011, 07:26:09 pm
Tell you what, if we take out EVERYTHING samurai and ninja and the few early renaissance stuff, then I will stop asking for Roman stuff.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Diomedes on March 07, 2011, 09:47:25 pm
So let me get this right, You want throwers to get a weapon to take out shielders... the throwers weakness. While we are at it why don't we give horsemen the lance of comp again but add thrust as well just so they can deal with those pesky pikes.

Sort of like:
- how archers can use pikes to kill pesky horsemen
- how 2h/polearm players can use crossbows and throwing weapons to kill archers
- how 2h/polearm players can use axes to destroy shields
- how horsemen can use crossbows to kill pikemen


This isn't Runescape - rock doesn't always beat scissors here.


ADDED:
The game is about having fun with a balanced hand to hand combat system. (and archery)

And while we are at it, I would LOVE to see the flamboyant conquistador armors and weapons introduced into the game.

Totes.  Certainly more fun than The Deadliest Warrior.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: MountedRhader on March 08, 2011, 12:12:07 am
And it isnt, already???  with all the ninjas and Samurai and Chinese Warlords running around in Europe at that timeframe??

The game is about having fun with a balanced hand to hand combat system. (and archery)

The key word here was FUN

As long as the items are introduced into the game with the proper balances in place, then there shouldnt be an issue for anyone.  This nonsense about aesthetics was out the window as soon as they decided to throw in all of the eastern weapons and play styles.

And while we are at it, I would LOVE to see the flamboyant conquistador armors and weapons introduced into the game.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on March 08, 2011, 12:27:05 am
i like my warband medieval and my games realistic! have to fight everyday with any samurai great heklmet combinations i see...dont make it worse
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Solidox on March 08, 2011, 03:31:40 am
Sort of like:
- how archers can use pikes to kill pesky horsemen
- how 2h/polearm players can use crossbows and throwing weapons to kill archers
- how 2h/polearm players can use axes to destroy shields
- how horsemen can use crossbows to kill pikemen


This isn't Runescape - rock doesn't always beat scissors here.



The thing about using other weapons to take out their counter is they have to go out of their main skillset in order to do so.

-Archers can use pikes yes, But they are going to be no where near as effective as a pure polearm pikeman.
-2h/Pole can use crossbow and throwing but are not going to be accurate and if they do invest wpf into throwing/crossbow they will have to gimp their build
-2h/polearm IS the anti turtle class
-Horsemen once again will be at a loss using crossbow+bolt+shield+lance they will have no weapon if knocked off horse + the repair cost for all of that would be staggering.

If you want a weapon to take out shield so do what everyother class does and just grab something from another skill set. Grab an axe and go in and swing. What you are asking for is a one all class that has no counters.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Diomedes on March 08, 2011, 04:39:18 am
What you are asking for is a one all class that has no counters.

I said no such thing.  I was merely pointing out that builds are more malleable than you seemed to be assuming.  My personal preference is for throwers to be a jack of all trades but master of none.  That way they can fight enemy at range, while not being as accurate as other ranged types, and can use their alternate attack in close quarters, while not being as statistically dangerous against pure hand-to-hand builds.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Rextard on March 08, 2011, 04:56:09 am
Throwing lances should be nerfed, not have their brokenness transferred onto another throwing weapon.

-1 hit kill to most characters at any point on the body, and at any point in the thrown range.
-80 speed to draw each throw. Unjustified considering how much more goes into the launcher ranged weapons for less damage at worse draw speeds.
-130 length (pulled and thrown from a backmounted spear holder, faster than an archer can draw and fire a much smaller arrow, despite the hundreds of pounds of tension propelling the arrow.)
-Can be used with a shield while having the 3rd highest listed damage of any weapon and the highest outside of crossbows.
-Can be switched to a melee weapon without having to switch weapons.
Title: Re: Convert Throwing Lances to Roman Pilums
Post by: Native_ATS on March 08, 2011, 10:45:57 am
Throwing lances should be nerfed, not have their brokenness transferred onto another throwing weapon.

-1 hit kill to most characters at any point on the body, and at any point in the thrown range.
-80 speed to draw each throw. Unjustified considering how much more goes into the launcher ranged weapons for less damage at worse draw speeds.
-130 length (pulled and thrown from a backmounted spear holder, faster than an archer can draw and fire a much smaller arrow, despite the hundreds of pounds of tension propelling the arrow.)
-Can be used with a shield while having the 3rd highest listed damage of any weapon and the highest outside of crossbows.
-Can be switched to a melee weapon without having to switch weapons.
how sad, you fail to see the truth
1 hit killz my ass... 21 str you can throw a lance, you will not 1hit kill shit, at 24str and 8 pt you might, and will start to get lucky, at 27 you have a better shot...so you need an all str build have fun getting wpf and agi...
80 speed? its slower then an arrow, you cant spam it... and they move slow thow the air... also you only get 2! miss once and your dead, cant run or back peddle your to slow lol
130 isnt to long, smaller then a spear o.o
sheild throwing is crap, what sheild are you gonna get with shitty agi, the better sheild you get the shitty ur pt is... am not scared of any thrower with a sheild. he wont 1 shot me, he wont aim well and if he misses he is dead, just down block