cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spa_geh_tea on March 03, 2012, 01:10:07 am
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....are we done yet? It is a failure to see any disadvantage to going 12-24 over its counterpart.
12-24 vs 24-12
12-24
shitload of wpf
8athletics
half the ps/str
24-12
some wpf
half the athletics
Seems kinda fair right?
Not really....
12 may seem weaker due to the low ps and str. But, no one seems to factor in the speed bonus, loomed weapons, and use of blunt/peirce. Couple those together and they can hit nearly as hard and nearly twice as fast.
12 str has acces to quite a few of top end armors. Again couple this with looms and such you can almost being just as resistant to blows as a 24 str char.
The big kicker is the athletics. 8 athletics is far superior to 4 athletics. Which means the 8athletics allows the player to maneuver faster, changing distance from opponent, and moving into "glance" regions or getting behind their enemy at will. They can still outpreform the 4 agility wearing an armor set that is much much heavier.
So, what is the conclusion to this?
The disadvantage-advantage ratio between the two builds is not balanced at all.
Some ideas on how to improve the situation:
increase str requirments for all equipment.
wpf does not increase damage output.
armor and weapon weights effect player speed and not athletics.
...... im sure there many more.
Since this was a clean observation I would appreciate constructive comments to the situation.
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Yeah, neft agi.
Reason?
It's fun.
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Athletic builds are shit for siege I regularly finish in the high 20's for kills as a 36 3 build with a long hafted knobbed mace, you don't need much speed if you can block and spin properly.
Saying that I will most likely drop to a 27 12 build as 1 athletics pisses me off when I have to make the run back from death and I might catch archers a little better.
So tbh it depends on the game mode as to whether agility rules.
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God, now I feel so dumb posting in between you two fine gentemen...
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Yeah, agi builds are such a problem, not the str stackers who take 15 arrows in the back while they onehit everyone and their mother.
Also that's just bullshit:
12 may seem weaker due to the low ps and str. But, no one seems to factor in the speed bonus, loomed weapons, and use of blunt/peirce. Couple those together and they can hit nearly as hard and nearly twice as fast.
:rolleyes:
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Not sure if OP is serious or not.
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I would hope not!
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This is wrong.
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Its gems like these that make trawling through all the boring and repetitive topics worthwhile.
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You can't compare orange to hand grenades.
I'm 24/12 atm and when I suit up in +3 Gothic Plate with my leathers underneath and a take my big black studded club down to the man bar for men I take a huge pounding before I even think about lying down for a nap. Sure you can move in and out and in and out and in and out really, really quickly. But I have a much bigger weapon... MUCH and I can swing my MUCH bigger weapon with a lot more gayness force than you. And when I take Bill out on the town I can penetrate you from both ends with a colossal amount of cock damage.
So if we compare 24/12 12/24 and equip them with both with a reasonable amount of +3s, say all of them, then what?
In the end the most important thing is the skill of the people in the fight. Also on the big servers being able to take more hits and walk it off counts for a lot. The amount of times having 24str and 8IF has meant that I actually get to the fight after being run down and shot multiple times I couldn't possibly begin to count. Most battles on NA I get slammed over and over and get to the fight with about 25% HP and some how most of the time I come out of it with an even KD.
TL:DR
Herp derp and references to man on man love.
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Balanced/Agility builds are good for standing on the flanks of the battle, being a skirmisher, superior for 1 vs 1s, can dart out of danger instead of being overwhelmed. I did an 18/21 xbow man/2hander after being sick of strength builds and it was quite fun, fairly damaging, just had to play to its strengths. Make a mistake in the big brawl though and a pike man will take off 3/4 of your HP with no thought or skill involved, though.
24/15 and up is good for front line fighting, tanking hits, killing people fast, and absorbing friendly fire in the main battle clusterfucks.
I probably got more kills using my strength builds than I recently did as balanced xbow hybrid, and I probably have the shit ton of HP to thank for that, being able to hang in full scale combat for longer and scrape out with enough HP to killsteal more.
Honestly I think they are both pretty balanced your playstyle just has to accommodate your build and you will perform well.
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Not sure if OP is serious or not.
This is wrong.
Its gems like these that make trawling through all the boring and repetitive topics worthwhile.
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The solution to this is to put higher requirements into armors and weapons. Right now, they scale to maximum 18 str more or less, which is reachable by a neutral builld (18-18). top weapons like poleaxes, top 2h swords and plates should be like 22-24 str requirement, thus allowing only pure str build to use them). If you're 12 str, youre supposed to wear medium armor, right now you can have a 48 non loomed armor, provided that maximum is 60, it's ridiculous for a build not centered on str. And the maximum requirement for the maximum protection in game (black armor) is 16 str, as i said, ridiculous.
When a 12 str build could use maximum a longsword with a heraldic mail with tabard (and no more than that), then we are talking.
In short, make str requirements for 2h, poles and armors scale to higher values.
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I'll only agree that armour requirements should be slightly higher for medium to top, apart of that no they are not catering to agi whores.
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The solution to this is to put higher requirements into armors and weapons. Right now, they scale to maximum 18 str more or less, which is reachable by a neutral builld (18-18). top weapons like poleaxes, top 2h swords and plates should be like 22-24 str requirement, thus allowing only pure str build to use them). If you're 12 str, youre supposed to wear medium armor, right now you can have a 48 non loomed armor, provided that maximum is 60, it's ridiculous for a build not centered on str. And the maximum requirement for the maximum protection in game (black armor) is 16 str, as i said, ridiculous.
When a 12 str build could use maximum a longsword with a heraldic mail with tabard (and no more than that), then we are talking.
In short, make str requirements for 2h, poles and armors scale to higher values.
lol.
So you want to buff str builds that are already the majority of the players?
Can you tell me why you do think that Str needs to be buffed more?
Actually its a fact that its better to go Str if you suck at crpg.
A really good player maybe as good with an agi-build. Everyone else will have a much better performance
with a str-heavy build.
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Being agi build with no backup on EU1 server looks like this:
1) spawn
2) since you're faster than almost everyone else you are among the first people to spot an enemy
3) get shot by either Agor (70% of your HP gone) or some random arrow (30% gone)
4) get couched by some mighty fine GK player who managed to come behind our whole team before most of us spawned
5) get in fight with one or two guys, hit them couple of times (they are STR heavy builds fully loomed) just to be stabbed from behind by their buddy pikemen which usually results in death
6) get into brawl with your comrades just to be hit by some friendly STR build who likes to kill his enemies by spamming blindly
7) get into fight just to be shot by friendly archer (if it's Zerobot1 it's usually friendly headshot which means death)
8) overwhelmed by enemy players (some smelly clan with 8 of them going after you, half having pikes) you decide to ru...retreat and then some mighty fine GK player spots you, you avoid his lance/couched lance but next time he just run over you which leaves you unprotected and those 8 fine clansmen have just arrived...
Agi builds are fun, if you wait till STR builds kill each other, cav numbers go down to reasonable levels and archers forget about you so you can ninja backstab them from behind.
For crowd fighting and teamplay heavy STR builds are always better.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
OP = Michael undercover
Statement of century: wpf does not increase damage output.
Yes, let's have literally everyone take 0 WM.
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killing leshma the greatest sport known to cav.
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Haha the OP is full of win, or is he actually serious, dammit so hard to tell.
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I think he may actually be serious... tough case.
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I was just about to ask for a high-end athletics buff.
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My 25 agility has been insulted by this thread.
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What happened? They let agility builds move faster than strength builds? Wow, so biased :o
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Max speed is the same for everyone, I think. You only gain acceleration by going agi way.
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Max speed is the same for everyone, I think. You only gain acceleration by going agi way.
I don't think that's true
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Me neither. I hear that a lot, "athletics only increases acceleration", but like.. all you have to do is make a 13 athletics STF and see it's not true. You'll never reach that kind of speed, no matter how long you run, with 5-8 athletics (since most people have that, easiest to test.)
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I think the acceleration from Ath helps, when going uphill or something, with max speed being more affected by gear and such, when on flat ground.
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Max speed is the same for everyone, I think. You only gain acceleration by going agi way.
This was disproven a long time ago. I thought it was true once, over a year ago.
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OP's an idiot. str builds are the way to go (as infantry melee). 24/12 is far superior to 12/24...
4 athletics and 4 wm is still pretty damn good. With 4 wm you can still put points into two weapon skills and have both over 100 (just slightly).
Agi builds should be buffed some (IMO). I think they need to take away the free WPF you get at every level up (which would make WM more useful, it's pretty useless now). Also make it so that riding skill actually made you ride faster on the horses...right now it's basically negligible (and I'm not even sure if it makes a difference...if it does, it's basically non-existent).
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OP's an idiot.
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Also make it so that riding skill actually made you ride faster on the horses...right now it's basically negligible (and I'm not even sure if it makes a difference...if it does, it's basically non-existent).
oh nononononono, it makes you so much faster.
I simply need point at huey newton.
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oh nononononono, it makes you so much faster.
I simply need point at huey newton.
True, it does increase your riding speed and maneuver
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oh nononononono, it makes you so much faster.
I simply need point at huey newton.
I'm 6 riding, I think he is 7? maybe 8? if we're both riding a champ courser (which we do) he wouldn't catch up to me. If he is a faster rider with having more riding skill you wouldn't notice it unless we were doing a 4 lap race around the map.
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imho armour weights need to be halfed, and the wpf scale needs to return to the native scale.
That way strength builds won't be totally nerfed but agility will still be worthwhile, and also because of the smoothing out of armour weight values you won't get too many of those near naked super agi stackers.
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Being agi build with no backup on EU1 server looks like this:
1) spawn
2) since you're faster than almost everyone else you are among the first people to spot an enemy
3) get shot by either Agor (70% of your HP gone) or some random arrow (30% gone)
4) get couched by some mighty fine GK player who managed to come behind our whole team before most of us spawned
5) get in fight with one or two guys, hit them couple of times (they are STR heavy builds fully loomed) just to be stabbed from behind by their buddy pikemen which usually results in death
6) get into brawl with your comrades just to be hit by some friendly STR build who likes to kill his enemies by spamming blindly
7) get into fight just to be shot by friendly archer (if it's Zerobot1 it's usually friendly headshot which means death)
8) overwhelmed by enemy players (some smelly clan with 8 of them going after you, half having pikes) you decide to ru...retreat and then some mighty fine GK player spots you, you avoid his lance/couched lance but next time he just run over you which leaves you unprotected and those 8 fine clansmen have just arrived...
Agi builds are fun, if you wait till STR builds kill each other, cav numbers go down to reasonable levels and archers forget about you so you can ninja backstab them from behind.
For crowd fighting and teamplay heavy STR builds are always better.
really? ballanced build is the best... str build is for nuubs / agil build is for nuubs, only thing that is problematic is polestagger, wtich makes agil builds increadibly retarded 1vs1 and even more so in group combat since like most have noticed , having a piker hit somone in group combat will result in that person dieing since he ISNT ALLOWED to block.