cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Wookimonsta on February 27, 2012, 05:41:55 pm

Title: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Wookimonsta on February 27, 2012, 05:41:55 pm
Basically this applies to all weapons.
If you have a drawn back weapon or are currently attacking, your turning speed is massively slowed down with WSE. This is to counteract lolstabs and spinthrusts and all this silliness.

A) All weapon thrusts and overheads cause turning rate slowdown both left and right. Thrust more so than overheads
B) Swinging left slows down the turning rate to the right.
C) Swinging right slows down the turning rate to the left.
D) Drawing back a ranged weapon has the same effect  (probably crossbows less than other throwing weapons).
E) Cav Melee is the exception. While on the horse they can turn as usual with a drawn weapon, but after release their turning speed is also slowed down.

The idea is to commit a player to an attack and this may be kind of cool.
Wouldn't want this just done on the main servers, but a test of this system might be cool. I basically stole it of some Jedi Academy mod that had more realistic saber fights.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Mial on February 27, 2012, 06:00:44 pm
Hoplites will be screwed.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: ThePoopy on February 27, 2012, 06:02:07 pm
Quote from: Mial on February 27, 2012, 06:00:44 pm
Sir Wiggalot will be screwed.
fix'd
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: San on February 27, 2012, 06:40:30 pm
By left swing you mean right to left? (reverse for right)

It seems kind of goofy... I kind of understand reduced turning in those directions for after release only. Why would you turn slower carrying a weapon normally compared to readying it? And even then, the speed reduction shouldn't be that harsh, maybe enough so you can't do a full 180 overhead before the guy behind you that's right attacking.

And even then, how will this change help make battles more interesting?  Overheads/thrusts will have a greater risk for being less accurate. Opponents will also try to move in the opposite direction of swings in order to get out of the sweetspot range. There will be a little more predictability in movement, since there are fewer optimal choices when committing to an offensive action.

I think it could be interesting if the turning reduction is slight.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Cyclopsided on February 27, 2012, 07:10:51 pm
Quote from: san. on February 27, 2012, 06:40:30 pm
By left swing you mean right to left? (reverse for right)

It seems kind of goofy... I kind of understand reduced turning in those directions for after release only. Why would you turn slower carrying a weapon normally compared to readying it? And even then, the speed reduction shouldn't be that harsh, maybe enough so you can't do a full 180 overhead before the guy behind you that's right attacking.

And even then, how will this change help make battles more interesting?  Overheads/thrusts will have a greater risk for being less accurate. Opponents will also try to move in the opposite direction of swings in order to get out of the sweetspot range. There will be a little more predictability in movement, since there are fewer optimal choices when committing to an offensive action.

I think it could be interesting if the turning reduction is slight.
When people say left swing, they mean "from the___". So left is from the left.

also lol I already maneuver away from people's swings in battle/siege. This change would be hilarious for my 10 ath build.
I don't think this is the solution to the problem (or if it is actually a "problem" anymore, for that matter, and not something inherent to the system that is easily countered and, when incorporated into gameplay, increases game depth).
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Siiem on February 27, 2012, 07:30:04 pm
I do not support this message.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Penitent on February 27, 2012, 07:39:14 pm
I think this would be good for after an attack is released, not while holding the attack though.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Zerran on February 27, 2012, 07:39:57 pm
Yes, the combat clearly needs to be slowed down further, people can't block nearly well enough. Let's just all stand still while we fight while we're at it.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: ThePoopy on February 27, 2012, 07:43:36 pm
slower rotation while hitting, not movement...
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Zerran on February 27, 2012, 07:57:09 pm
Quote from: ThePoopy on February 27, 2012, 07:43:36 pm
slower rotation while hitting, not movement...

Yes, but this would mean swings connect slower, and would make thrusts and overheads dramatically easier to dodge. It would also make it more difficult to use higher ath levels because you NEED to turn a lot to really utilize them. And as someone said earlier, hoplites would be totally screwed over by this. Maybe you haven't ever played as one, but they HAVE to turn like crazy or their thrusts just glance.

It would mean fights would last forever, backpeddling would get an indirect buff due to facehugging becoming useless, and I see no positive gain from it.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Gurnisson on February 27, 2012, 08:45:14 pm
Just remove all one/two-directional polearms while you're at it
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: ArchonAlarion on February 27, 2012, 09:11:51 pm
Isn't turning rate based on mouse sensitivity?
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Camaris on February 27, 2012, 09:33:14 pm
Actually i would love to test it before i cry ;)
There should be a Test-Server for duells with such changes.
EU-3-Test or something like that.  That way changes could be looked at first and then we could talk about.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Tzar on February 27, 2012, 09:53:41 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on February 27, 2012, 05:41:55 pm
Bla bla bla slow down the gameplay even more bla bla bla bla.... Herp derp derp...

-1

No thx
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Kansuke on February 27, 2012, 10:35:44 pm
Quote from: Siiem on February 27, 2012, 07:30:04 pm
I do support this message.

Lolstab and spintrust are just silly and don't belong to a game like this, most 1/2 directional polearms are support weapon and dueling with a 3 meters ong pike is just retarded.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: oohillac on February 27, 2012, 10:38:19 pm
Quote from: Mial on February 27, 2012, 06:00:44 pm
Hoplites will be screwed.

Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: dodnet on February 27, 2012, 10:49:56 pm
Yeah nice, make cav even more OP and make pike/long spear completely useless. Really great idea...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Digglez on February 27, 2012, 11:06:42 pm
this should have been done a long time ago, along with giving successive parries an increasing chance to fail
 2.5% on 2nd, 5% on 3rd, 10% on 4th etc (in light of an endurance system)
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Wookimonsta on February 27, 2012, 11:07:02 pm
Quote from: ThePoopy on February 27, 2012, 07:43:36 pm
slower rotation while hitting, not movement...

this actually sounds quite better, i'd like to try this
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Gurnisson on February 28, 2012, 01:22:14 am
Quote from: Digglez on February 27, 2012, 11:06:42 pm
this should have been done a long time ago, along with giving successive parries an increasing chance to fail

I don't like either of those suggestions
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Angantyr on February 28, 2012, 01:39:39 am
I fully support decreasing lolstabs somehow but I remember a few times during WB beta where the developers tried decreasing turn speed and it felt very arbitrary, stiff and restricted, with players running around each other struggling to turn enough so as to be able to land a hit.

Of course if the decrease were somewhat lower than whatever it was back then it may or may not work, but I'd rather see the lolstab made less frequent by changing the animation as has already been done with the 2h stab (which though not perfect has improved it a great deal).
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: oohillac on February 28, 2012, 01:51:27 am
The problem I see with removing/changing "lolstabs" is that some of these players and weapons need the close-range stab to play effectively.  Personally, I don't have too much of an issue with it.  I can block, kick, do some footwork, drag the opponent to a teammate, into view of an archer, etc.  Yes, it can be silly when an awlpike does a crazy dance move to get a stab in, but without that he'd just die. 

(click to show/hide)

When I play my hoplite, I turn away from my opponent, launch an attack, and spin back to my opponent's face.  This is the only reliable way I can do an attack without glancing at close range.  If he blocks it, he gets a swing, which I block.  The process can repeat until my shield breaks, one of us screws up, I put my shield away, or someone else interrupts.  I don't see a problem here.

Also, I though this was a core engine issue and could not be dealt with based on the endless threads regarding this "issue"?
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: San on February 28, 2012, 02:19:59 am
Quote from: Marathon on February 27, 2012, 07:10:51 pm
When people say left swing, they mean "from the___". So left is from the left.


I asked specifically because that way didn't make sense to me.. I want to turn right/left for those swings.

Either way, I don't really think making the change is worth it. It could have unintended side effects that make some movements very good.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on February 28, 2012, 11:40:39 pm
Anything to decrease the power of exploiters I will support.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: oohillac on February 29, 2012, 01:08:35 am
Quote from: Spa_geh_tea on February 28, 2012, 11:40:39 pm
Anything to decrease the power of exploiters I will support.
This isn't an exploit though.  Spinstabbing is a valid tactic in-game, and in most cases is the only choice for users of long polearms when pressured.  Kick times should be changed for pole users so a kickstab would be viable, instead of screwing with swing times.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Digglez on February 29, 2012, 03:13:28 am
Quote from: oohillac on February 29, 2012, 01:08:35 am
This isn't an exploit though.  Spinstabbing is a valid tactic in-game, and in most cases is the only choice for users of long polearms when pressured.  Kick times should be changed for pole users so a kickstab would be viable, instead of screwing with swing times.

its a workaround due to poor engine design. design it right so people dont have to do stupid unrealistic shit like this
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Jarlek on February 29, 2012, 05:51:33 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on February 27, 2012, 11:07:02 pm
this actually sounds quite better, i'd like to try this
Same
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: oohillac on February 29, 2012, 06:16:52 pm
As a hoplite, I absolutely need the spinstab.  And I'm not alone in this. 

Shieldbash, alternative stab, etc, etc
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: Tomas on February 29, 2012, 06:39:14 pm
A better alternative would be to say that if a person turns 90 degrees in one go then there is either a slight pause before they can begin to turn again in either direction or a short period of slowed turning speeds.

This removes the silly seemless 180 degree turning but doesn't effect swing speeds or normal non-spinning combat at all.

I have no idea how it could be coded though.
Title: Re: Slowing down the turning rate with readied weapons
Post by: oohillac on February 29, 2012, 07:04:38 pm
To be honest, I don't see what the issue is here at all.  Block down, problem solved.

Hell, it's easy to chamber some of these stabs.