cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Phew on February 14, 2012, 07:36:15 pm
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I use a +3 Heavy Round Shield, but I only have 4 shield skill this generation (had 6 last gen). Lately I've noticed some skilled players seem to be able to swing 'around' it even when I'm nearly facing directly at them. This is very common with heater/kite/buckler-type shields with <25 width, but I figured my 39 width would give me nearly 180 degree protection in melee.
I'm debating going up to 5 shield skill next gen, and the deciding factor depends on the mechanics of how shield skill affects this "arc of protection", if it all. I know shield skill increases durability, force field against ranged, and raise speed, but I am content with each of those factors with only 4 skill.
Paul, if you read this, I'd love to know the actual equation for the angle of this arc as a function of shield width and skill.
Thanks
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As far as I know and from my own testing, shield skill does not increase the range of protection from melee. So, your only real hope of blocking a hit is to face your attacker. It is a negative of shields that they give you a false sense of security. The only protection from melee they seem to give is entirely based on the width of the shield.
Still, learning the mechanics behind shield blocking would be quite interesting...
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I figured as much. I'd really like to know the coverage arc of say a 25 width shield vs. the 39 on the HRS, since some of the Kite/Norman shields are really nice looking. In-game the difference feels substantial (which is why most players seem to use round shields I suppose).
Then again, some buckler users like Mala don't seem to ever get hit from the side, but I suppose that's a function of player skill not game mechanics. Rusty, don't you use a Heavy Round? Seems to hit the sweet spot of coverage/speed/durability while only requiring one slot and 4 skill. I've seen people on market offering Huscarl/Knightly Kite/Norman shields in exchange for the HRS just in the past couple days.
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Honestly the width and height of a shield doesn't make a huge difference unless you're talking about ranged. If you're facing your opponent, you'll never get hit around your shield.
I've done gens with the heavy round, the knightly heater and the buckler. I've recently switched back to the heavy round not because of coverage but because of shield stun. I like the knightly heater, especially for it's ability to tap blocks. 100 speed shields are the only ones that block as fast as manual blocking does. However, I found that it got stunned too often for my tastes. The only time I get shield stunned nowadays is from a str stacker using a bar mace.
The blocking lag with a HRS is VERY noticeable though. Even with a MW one and 6 shield skill.
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Then again, some buckler users like Mala don't seem to ever get hit from the side, but I suppose that's a function of player skill not game mechanics. Rusty, don't you use a Heavy Round? Seems to hit the sweet spot of coverage/speed/durability while only requiring one slot and 4 skill. I've seen people on market offering Huscarl/Knightly Kite/Norman shields in exchange for the HRS just in the past couple days.
Naa, that is just from the 3rd person view. I get hit by sideswings through the block quite often while nearly "perfect" hits at the sides of other shielders get blocked.
So you dont get that what you see.
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I find myself backpedaling in 1v2 situations a lot, often on walls in siege. I'd like the coverage to be wide enough that I can block guys at both 2 O'clock and 10 O'clock simultaneously, and the HRS accomplishes that I think (barely).
Rusty, have you tried a compromise shield in the 90-96 speed range, but heavier than 6? Brown Lion, Green Crescent, Kite, or Heater? Balb seems to do OK with his Brown Lion. I just wish there were other cosmetic options for a shield with those stats.
If width isn't that important in melee, Heavy Kite looks pretty appealing. At +3, 91 speed, 20 armor, 540ish hp, 8 weight.
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I find myself backpedaling in 1v2 situations a lot, often on walls in siege. I'd like the coverage to be wide enough that I can block guys at both 2 O'clock and 10 O'clock simultaneously, and the HRS accomplishes that I think (barely).
Rusty, have you tried a compromise shield in the 90-96 speed range, but heavier than 6? Brown Lion, Green Crescent, or Heater? Balb seems to do OK with his Brown Lion. I just wish there were other cosmetic options for a shield with those stats.
If that's what you're after I would go for either the heater or heavy heater. Both of them are heraldric and both are faster than the heavy round. The heavy heater is also more durable than the heavy round but it's a 2 slot shield.
Another interesting point. If you have 2 enemies in front of you one at the 2 o'clock and another at the 10'clock position and they are too close to you, they can still hit around a heavy round shield. But, as long as you keep backing up, you'll be fine. If a shield user is blocking, they move as fast going forward as they do going backward. Without a shield you move slower blocking and going backward than going forward.
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Do you think round shields do a better job of disguising swing direction? I feel like I surprise people with Long Espada thrusts way more than I should, and I can't help but think it's because they can't see my thrust drawing back behind my shield.
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Do you think round shields do a better job of disguising swing direction? I feel like I surprise people with Long Espada thrusts way more than I should, and I can't help but think it's because they can't see my thrust drawing back behind my shield.
Not really. It's pretty obvious when a 1-hander is going for a thrust as all their other attacks put their arm up by their head. The 1h thrust is just the easiest one to go around blocks with if you're turning into it.
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From my experience, shield skill does help melee coverage. But I can be mistaking. What I'm sure of is that nearly any round shield has a "better" coverage than nearly any kite/board/heather shield. Round shields have a decent coverage on the sides. And that is the only thing you really care about.
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Would love if they finally speed up every single shield but the fastest.
They all could need additional speed. Instead nerfing 2h and poles all day long they should have
buffed 1h that way one time.
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Shield skill does increase the forcefield size.
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When my shield skill gets really high I tend to be able to block attacks that shouldn't even be near me. So I'd assume it increases the size. Right now with 4 shield I've had people hit me around my shield from as much as 25 degrees from straight in front of me. Almost always a turned thrust too. I'd say in certain situations the weapon will register a side hit before it would register a frontal hit, causing random shield fails. Thing is it would be happening to manual blockers too, have you guys had an increase is hits like this?
I've also noticed back swing kills happening more often now.
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I like how 2h can block attacks to the side and some times behind
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I don't like that at all and I'm 2H. It makes my build nearly useless.
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Does the shield skill increase shield's speed? I mean, it should, shouldn't it?
Wiki says it does, but how much?
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Ive only really ever noticed a huge forcefield for a shield on horseback. Ive blocked attacks that i would never block on foot on horseback. does being on horseback affect the shield forcefield or am i completely insane?
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Since shield speed and protection arc are virtually impossible to measure empirically, we're probably at the mercy of the devs to release the actual formulas.
Of all the skills, Shield skill is definitely the least understood. The 8% durability per point is known, but everything else is a mystery.
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best shield ever is brown lion heater. loom it and be like balbaroth (unkillable)
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although im not a shielder myself , and have only played shielder ~6 gens as heavy cav, i have learned from other shielders, that shield skill 6 is needed to ''effectivley'' protect people behind you from archery, and yes it increases your ''forcefield'' witch directley should aslo affect your block arch in melee combat, the hitting arround shields i do as my 2 hander needs timing and good movement, its basicly a back hit . what could be confusing you is the turn/lol stabbing, this is also how u sometimes get hit by a pike or 2 hander , but it seems like the person in question is hitting through somone else, same consept applys to shield, so watch well from witch side the initial stab is being turned and face that way slightly. hope this advise helps
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I'm well aware of the wonkyness with thrusts; I use a +3 Long Espada, and most of my attacks are thrusts. Whenever I thrust I feel like I'm just as likely to warp through the space-time continuum and one-shot some archer on the other side of the map as I am to TK a teammate behind me; they are just plain unpredictable. I am astounded by the ridiculous reach as often as I rage at failing to connect with an enemy directly in the path of my blade.
Thrust mechanics aside, I'd like to know the equations behind shield speed and melee protection arc.
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Concerning forcefields, Im not sure if this is directly related to shield skill, but even a buckler can become completely imune to arrow fire from the front. I say this, because as an archer I've tested it many times while trying to shoot players such as leoking in the head and knees, with no success. Recently, he(leoking) was even kind enought to stop a few metters away from me and aim his shield to the ground, so I could try shooting him in the head, but the arrow still found its way to the shield's orbit(why I ended up raging against bucklers some time ago). The devs should find a way to deal with this - make the whole thing more realistic.
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I don't like that at all and I'm 2H. It makes my build nearly useless.
Bah feint better, you don't need to go behind your opponent when you can get your hits in without the headache.
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That's not the point. If I get behind the opponent and strike he shouldn't be able to block that strike. Simple as that.
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Concerning forcefields, Im not sure if this is directly related to shield skill, but even a buckler can become completely imune to arrow fire from the front. I say this, because as an archer I've tested it many times while trying to shoot players such as leoking in the head and knees, with no success. Recently, he(leoking) was even kind enought to stop a few metters away from me and aim his shield to the ground, so I could try shooting him in the head, but the arrow still found its way to the shield's orbit(why I ended up raging against bucklers some time ago). The devs should find a way to deal with this - make the whole thing more realistic.
2 things:
1st. LeoKing uses quite a high agi build and has quite a high shield skill. Fair enough to get some profits, be it more durability for shield or forcefield, isn't it?
2nd. This mod is about fun, not realism. And the increasing forcefield is not game breaking - it is a reward for getting shield skill points. Should be rewarded, not punished.
Oh, there's actually a third one.
3rd. If you nerf shield skill, it will lead to more whine about archers' powah, thus causing a nerf and/or more insulting on the forum and ingame...
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I wouldn't ask for a nerf, but for a different shield 'engine'. The forcefield doesn't make much sence, that's all.
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I wouldn't ask for a nerf, but for a different shield 'engine'. The forcefield doesn't make much sence, that's all.
You know the forcefield was drastically reduced in size many, many patches ago. It is possible for archers to get headshots over shields or shoot people in the feet. It's happened to me many, many times even with 6 shield skill. Also, if bucklers didn't stop arrows they would be even more useless than they currently are. If it moved to an engine where the player had to adjust his shield in order to stop arrows, you would honestly be better off not using a shield and just trying to dodge. Forcefield might not be perfect, but I think it's the best solution.
Shields right now are in a pretty good spot. You get perfect blocking and immunity to range from the front arc.
As for downsides, they slow you down, are breakable and on average are slower than manual blocking. Seems pretty balanced.
Still, if you want to be a crazy 1-handed killing machine, I suggest not using a shield at all.
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Im not saying that shields shouldn't stop arrows, but the small ones shouldn't be much good at it, just like in native or real life. I dont remember the last time I shot a shielder under the shield in this mod. Thats just another problem with the custom builds in crpg.
If the devs managed to add forcefield restrictions to match the type of shield used, then we'd have something better. It would be harder for shielders, but it wouldn't be the first time that something got nerfed for both accuracy and ballance here. Maybe then speed would be optimized to compensate...
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That's not the point. If I get behind the opponent and strike he shouldn't be able to block that strike. Simple as that.
True.
But I personally think this is overused. Probably because I most often use shields, which seem to block a narrower range of melee attacks than the correct side block with a 2h, due to block animations and shield coverages.